Do you pay attention to the signs? Follow the law?

[Bikenut]

Bikenut, We have had this discussion before, and you failed then and now to understand and adhere to the definition of words... you keep changing them to suit your argument.... If someone invites the public onto his property, he has NOT invited only those he wants, he has invited them ALL....

You seem to not be able to understand that very simple concept, and go off on some tangent that totally ignores the actual meaning of the words you are using..


If , as in your argument, he only wants those who meet certain requirements or prerequisites on his property, he NO LONGER is a "Business" open to the "PUBLIC"....

Also, you most certainly are talking out of your backside accusing me of confusing public property with business property, you are 100% making things up because I never even remotely hinted anything like that at all....

Friend.. it isn't I who has failed to understand the concept of "open to the public" being dependent upon the public obeying any rules the property owner sets as a condition of the public using the property. It is you who is missing the simple concept that an invitation isn't always a blanket invitation and an invitation can come with stipulations. And because an invitation can come with stipulations the property owner can stipulate that only those who wear shirts and shoes and do not carry guns will be .. invited in.

You seem to be stuck on the idea that a business "open to the public" cannot make stipulations as to what members of the public are acceptable to the owner of the business. Such is not the case since the business owner... the guy who owns the building, the parking lot, and the lawn just like you own your house, your driveway, and your yard... has the right to stipulate what members of the public (which persons) will be... and maybe this is the part you have a problem with... ALLOWED BY THE OWNER! to accept the invitation to come in.

Those persons the owner deems unacceptable because they aren't wearing a shirt or aren't wearing shoes or are carrying a gun will have their invitation revoked and they will be thrown out/off the property.

Now you can argue until the cows come home as to how you think "open to the public" means the property owner can't say what members of the "public" isn't acceptable but the plain fact is..... whether you like it or not...

Any private property owner, whether that property be a private residence or a business open to the public, has the right to make rules governing how people are allowed to behave while on the property and what people are NOT allowed to bring with them onto the property.

Now.. a simple yet appropriate example. You decide to have a garage sale and open your garage to the public in order to sell the stuff in your garage. Do you think you still have the right to say that no guns will be allowed at your garage sale? Do you think you still could throw someone who brought a gun into your garage off your property?

Of course you do!! Even though you have "invited" the public into your garage you still own the garage! And because it is your garage you get to make the rules concerning who is "allowed" in and what they are "allowed" to do while there.

Now... the difference between your garage sale and Wal Mart is.............. Wal Mart is a much bigger... garage sale.

Like it or not.. he who owns the property gets to make the rules governing not only how people will be ALLOWED! to use that property but WHO will be allowed to use that property. And if there is a "no shirt, no shoes, no service" rule then folks who aren't wearing shirts or shoes will NOT be allowed to use the property. And the same goes for property with a "no guns" rule... people who bring in guns will NOT be allowed to use the property.

And again, let me stress that the Constitution only protects our rights from the government... it has no power over the private citizen.

I suggested before that you might want to research what private property rights are and even gave you a link to start you off.. the simple fact is... any business owner or his representative can throw you out at any time for almost anything. And you know that to be true. If it wasn't true then the property owner would not be able to throw you out. Correct?

So tell me.. why is it a private property owner can make a "no shirt, no shoes, no service" and a "no guns" rule and make it stick? Tell me where the property owner can't do it. And please come up with something more substantial than a rant about "inviting the public"...

 

[thoricuncle]

Once you open your business up to the public, you have to accommodate anyone who comes in.

I can't have a sign that says, "Wheelchairs are not allowed" and think that I'm exercising my property rights and do not need to comply with the Americans with Disabilities Act.

Thank God for the brave people who in the 1950's ignored the "Whites Only" signs in diners.

As I stated before, I follow the law. If asked to leave, I'll leave. But I have yet to read ane argument that states how I'm "disrespecting property rights" by carrying a concealed firearm.

 

[Nightmare45]

Texas is a private property State, 30.06 signs posted in English (dial 2 for Spanish) have weight of law but must be posted on all entrances, if you walk in a door that does not have the sign all they can ask you to do is leave. Most likely would not be an Issue personally with my doctor or dentist as I hunt and shoot with both.

 

[Bikenut]

Once you open your business up to the public, you have to accommodate anyone who comes in.

I can't have a sign that says, "Wheelchairs are not allowed" and think that I'm exercising my property rights and do not need to comply with the Americans with Disabilities Act.

Thank God for the brave people who in the 1950's ignored the "Whites Only" signs in diners.

As I stated before, I follow the law. If asked to leave, I'll leave. But I have yet to read ane argument that states how I'm "disrespecting property rights" by carrying a concealed firearm.

Please answer me this...

If I "have to accommodate" anyone who comes in why can I boot you out if you come in without a shirt? Or without shoes? Or you carry your gun in when I said "no guns"?

Instead of my arguing that property owners have the right to make the rules... and even providing a link to an article from the Cato Institute that explains it... how about you guys who think your right to bear arms trumps the property owner's right to tell you you can't bring in a gun provide some proof of your assertions?

Got links to actual verifiable proof?

And puleeeze do not cite the Constitution or the 2nd Amendment since those only protect rights from the government .... and does not protect rights, including the right to bear arms, from private citizens.

http://www.cato.org/pubs/handbook/hb111/hb111-34.pdf

 

[Rhino]

Once you open your business up to the public, you have to accommodate anyone who comes in.

No you don't. You are allowed to set any conditions you want, as long as they're legal.

I can't have a sign that says, "Wheelchairs are not allowed" and think that I'm exercising my property rights and do not need to comply with the Americans with Disabilities Act.

Thank God for the brave people who in the 1950's ignored the "Whites Only" signs in diners.

It's a different story when you violate the law. Prohibiting guns isn't violating the law, though many certainly would like it to be.

As I stated before, I follow the law. If asked to leave, I'll leave. But I have yet to read ane argument that states how I'm "disrespecting property rights" by carrying a concealed firearm.

You've read plenty. Just because you don't like them doesn't mean they aren't valid. There are lots of gun control laws I don't like in this country. That doesn't mean they aren't valid. You don't have the right to dictate the terms by which you can enter someone else's property, even if you're invited. it's as simple as that. You go to public events all the time where no outside food or drink is allowed, or coolers/ice chests. Is that valid? Yep, because it's their property and they have the right to set conditions for entry onto their property, even for a public event, just as you have the same right to set conditions for entry onto your property for invited guests. The guests don't get to decide the rules for property. The property owners do. You can claim you don't see that argument all you want, but don't expect us to believe it unless you also can't add 2 and 2.

 

[Bikenut]

One more time.... public property is property that the government owns (us the people.. the "public" own it) but private property is any property owned by citizens/corporations.

Your home/garage/driveway is owned by you and is private property.

Now if you decide to have a garage sale and "open your private property (your garage/driveway/lawn) to the public for the purpose of conducting business" you are doing the very same thing that Wal Mart does with it's buildings/lawn/parking lot... "opening private property to the public for the purpose of conducting business".

And in both cases, since the property is privately owned, the owner of that private property has the right to make the rules. And has the right to limit which members of the public are "allowed" to enter.

Thing is.. some folks seem to think "open to the public" means they can treat that property as if it is their own... such is not the case since folks can wander around their back yard barefoot without a shirt carrying a gun but try that in a business with a "no shirt, no shoes, no service" and "no guns" rules and see how fast the business kicks them to the curb.

There are some laws that assess a penalty if certain protected classes of people are prevented from entering (disabled, race, religion) but carrying a gun against a "no guns" rule.......... is NOT one of them.

 

[SGB]

This may have been covered earlier in these 7 pages .....

Commercial property must adhere to the regulations attached to their business license and usually don't have the same scope of discretion as non commercial property. Private Property open to the public has different rules than does private property not open to the public.

In Florida a No Guns sign in and of itself carries no weight of law. If a business doesn't want firearms on the premise a business representative must verbally inform each individual he/she wishes to exit the property to do so.

 

[Bikenut]

This may have been covered earlier in these 7 pages .....

Commercial property must adhere to the regulations attached to their business license and usually don't have the same scope of discretion as non commercial property. Private Property open to the public has different rules than does private property not open to the public.

In Florida a No Guns sign in and of itself carries no weight of law. If a business doesn't want firearms on the premise a business representative must verbally inform each individual he/she wishes to exit the property to do so.

If I am understanding correctly ... in Florida ..private property used for a commercial purpose... referred to as.. commercial property.. although it still remains private property... may have to adhere to many laws (depending on different State and/or local laws) concerning appearance/upkeep of the property, amenities provided, and/or who cannot be refused entry (disabled, race, creed, etc.) in order to continue to do business or do business without suffering penalties such as fines. But the property owner can still make rules (such as "no shirt, no shoes, no service" or "no guns") as long as those rules do not violate the laws concerning doing business.

Correct?

But private property not open to the public is not subject to those laws.

Correct?

Yet the commonality is still the property owner gets to make the rules (subject to laws concerning property used commercially) because he owns the private property since using the property for a commercial purpose does not change who owns the property... only what use is being made of it.

The following is a general comment not directed at anyone in particular....

I have yet to see any proof with verifiable cites and/or links to actual law from anyone that says the right to bear arms trumps the private property owner's right to ban guns just because the private property is "open to the public".

 

[SGB]

I have yet to see any proof with verifiable cites and/or links to actual law from anyone that says the right to bear arms trumps the private property owner's right to ban guns just because the private property is "open to the public".

And you wont as that which is not specifically Illegal is legal in common law. As what is being discussed is "Trespass" then the statutes governing "Trespass" are where one looks to find if "signs" carry weight of law in their jurisdiction.

An Open to the public business can make all the no gun rules they want in Florida but those rules (sign or no sign) have no weight of law here until a representative verbally tells an individual to leave the property.

 

[Rhino]

We were speaking of states where the signs have rule of law.

 

[Bikenut]

And you wont as that which is not specifically Illegal is legal in common law. As what is being discussed is "Trespass" then the statutes governing "Trespass" are where one looks to find if "signs" carry weight of law in their jurisdiction.

An Open to the public business can make all the no gun rules they want in Florida but those rules (sign or no sign) have no weight of law here until a representative verbally tells an individual to leave the property.

Yeah, I know... quite often when a request is made of the most vociferous and adamant that demand the right to bear arms to provide proof of the veracity of their statements often times the overwhelming sound is of....

crickets.

We were speaking of states where the signs have rule of law.

Actually I'm speaking not about signs but of the right of the property owner to make a "no guns" rule... signs or no signs.

However, legalities aside since in some States a sign has the weight of law and in some others it doesn't..........

If there is a sign then I have been notified that the business has a "no guns" rule and I'll be darned if I'll go in and spend money to support that "no guns" rule. Why would I spend money at a business that bans guns? So they can make enough money to open another store that also.. bans guns?

And occasionally I make mention of how some folks demand their right to bear arms be respected while happily disrespecting the private property owner's right to ... ban guns.

Again, a general comment directed at no one in particular or even in general...

Something about stepping on someone else's rights while screaming about your own rights just doesn't seem..... honorable ... to me.

 

[Rhino]

Actually I'm speaking not about signs but of the right of the property owner to make a "no guns" rule... signs or no signs.

The general principle, right. But the premise we've been speaking from, or certainly that I have, is that the person carrying the gun has been made aware of the prohibition. While that may not necessarily be a sign in a state where they have no rule of law, the effect is the same when the gun carrier is personally and specifically made aware of the prohibition by some other means. I probably could have stated it that way but it was just easier to say we were speaking in the same context of states where signs have rule of law.

 

[Timothy2001]

Well Officer Timothy.....err...ummm...I meant to say... 'Timothy2001'.....

'I always obey the federal & state laws' of properly posted 'no firearms signage'. :victory:

Hehe, I love this forum for many reasons. I learn so much here, I enjoy the friendly banter and debate and Outlaw here just accused me of being a LEO.

I am not a cop but have great respect for them, still tend to break the law now and then (YIKES....someone told me never to admit that on here) and am very happy with all the input to this post.

 

[jcreek]

Luckily in my state, even in a store with signs prohibiting carry,it's still legal to do so, so yes I still carry. If the ask you to leave you must do so or risk being charged with trespassing but no weapons charges will ensue. If one day someone does happen to notice I'm carrying and asks me to leave id be more than happy to take my business elsewhere and never return.

 

[DCkilla]

I read the signs. I have also read the law and do my best to follow.

If the sign says "21 and over", I stay out. If the sign says "outdoor music festival" and legally defined as such, I stay out.
If the sign says "zoo", I'm in. If the sign says "Tacoma Mall", I can do better.

 

[Rich M]

Do you pay attention to the signs?

I will abide by it IF I see one. I cant say that Ive seen many, but I don't go looking for them either. I know where Im not allowed by law, but I don't take the time to stand there and read all the little signs on the entrances of the places I go either.

 

[DCkilla]

Do you pay attention to the signs?

I will abide by it IF I see one. I cant say that Ive seen many, but I don't go looking for them either. I know where Im not allowed by law, but I don't take the time to stand there and read all the little signs on the entrances of the places I go either.

I don't search for signs either. Waisting time on such endeavors is illogical.

 

[SGB]

Luckily in my state, even in a store with signs prohibiting carry,it's still legal to do so, so yes I still carry. If the ask you to leave you must do so or risk being charged with trespassing but no weapons charges will ensue. If one day someone does happen to notice I'm carrying and asks me to leave id be more than happy to take my business elsewhere and never return.

Careful friend, armed trespass in Florida is a Felony

 

[cluznar]

Time to start allowing Concealed Carry in a lot more places. Why stop the good people from carrying when criminals could care less about signs? We need CCW permits which are good in all 50 states also. Lets get with it, time for good people to stop being punished about carrying, they went thru an FBI check. Punish the criminals.

:dirol:

 

[Stan45]

Careful friend, armed trespass in Florida is a Felony

jcreek statment was, "If one day someone does happen to notice I'm carrying and asks me to leave id be more than happy to take my business elsewhere and never return."

How is that against the law? Quote chapter and verse of Florida Law