Combat Vet's Shoot Down "Good Guys With Guns" idea

[BluesStringer]

Let me tell you about people who can't tell the good guys from the bad guys, but choose to toe the battle lines anyway.

Forrest Sibley was the only son of my best friend, Brent. He was deployed for his third tour in Afghanistan, and as a forward air controller, saw many battles in areas he had to hump 150 lb. rucks for miles to even get to. His compatriots spoke of him at his funeral as one of the most selfless, bravest men among their ranks, and he had the ribbons and medals to prove the truth of those statements.

Forrest didn't die in an engagement out in the hinterlands. He was at a vehicle checkpoint at Camp Antonik, a forward operating base in Helmand Province, when a "good guy" in an Afghani Security Forces uniform opened fire on him and a Captain that he was traveling with. It is not reported officially for security purposes of both families, but Forrest and the Capt. fought back as they were dying, and "rumor" has it that their actions saved anyone else from being killed. The "rumor" comes from the men he served with, one of them being his best friend all the way through his life from Kindergarten.

That Afghani "good guy" was no different than the San Bernadino killers, or any of the hundreds of other barbarian attacks perpetrated around the world by these scum. They hide in plain sight amongst their enemies and take them out in the most horrific ways they can imagine.

Will I fight them if I encounter them? You freakin' betcha. Will I run and hide for fear of being mistaken for one of them by LE? Hell no I won't, because I'm just as likely to die from an LEO's bullet for being mistaken for a free American anyway. And I sure as Hell don't need no stinkin' LEO or CoP or Sheriff to tell me what to carry, when to carry, where to carry, or why I should carry, and that was true for years before Forrest even joined the Air Force.

All this slobbering over cops who are spewing BS about "privileges" to carry and such is just sickening to me. And the hand-wringing over whether or not to engage the enemy who not only say, but prove over and over and over again that they want to kill us, is even more sickening to me.

Grow a freakin' set already.

Blues

​

 

[indyyy]

You are confusing "Concealment for Cover" I wouldn't count on seatbacks stopping incoming rounds.

Well, maybe a bit of both. I would agree with a few seats, but the theater has maybe 50 rows of seats. If one shooter is in front and the other in back that's alot of seats for a bullet to go thru. At any rate, I'll stop posting about the hypothetical theater scenario and maybe we can discuss what's said in the article.

 

[indyyy]

And the hand-wringing over whether or not to engage the enemy who not only say, but prove over and over and over again that they want to kill us, is even more sickening to me.

Maybe you mistake me - I didn't say I wouldn't fight back if I'm in a place where there's a shooter, simply that some of what the guys mention in the article is what scares me about it. I just posted the article because I came across it and thought it might be fun to discuss.

 

[BluesStringer]

Maybe you mistake me - I didn't say I wouldn't fight back if I'm in a place where there's a shooter, simply that some of what the guys mention in the article is what scares me about it. I just posted the article because I came across it and thought it might be fun to discuss.

I didn't read the article. I'm a vet and my best friend's son never lived to be a vet, so I've learned all the lessons I'm interested in learning about good-guy/bad-guy scenarios from vets who are total strangers to me. That said, I took what you said about the article at face value, and my post was directed to those whose words you characterized and/or quoted or anyone who thinks like they do. You did mention the cops who are taking such a strong stand (HA!) concerning our rights, so to a minor degree that part was in response to you, but it amazes me how many people on the other two forums I frequent are taking those cops' urgings to carry as some kind of major act of courage and high principle. Considering that it is We, The People who forbade the government from infringing on the right to keep and bear arms, it should be Us, The People telling them when, why, where and whether we will carry or not, and they shouldn't have one single word to say about it, pro or con. One of the Forums I'm on is called The Tree of Liberty, and even there, with all the liberty-loving essence of Thomas Jefferson invoked by just those four words, there are people bowing in gratitude and excited, breathless praise for these tyrants who talk about our rights as a privilege that they have total control over. To them also I say, "Grow a freakin' set already."

Then again you say in the same post that I may "mistake you" that it scares you to think that a cop might mistake you for a bad guy. Look, I'm in no hurry to die, especially not by gunfire, and especially not by gunfire or IED or hatchet or scimitar from a scumbag musloid terrorist, and regardless of whether or not it's terrorists or your run-of-the-mill junkierobberrapistburglarknock-outgame American threatening me, mine or a stranger with deadly force, yeah, I'll be scared, but I'll damn sure not be frozen in place from fear, and I'll not second guess myself once I've concluded that, but for my willingness to engage, someone who shouldn't is going to die. If a cop shoots at me, no second guessing myself. If a cop shoots and wounds me, no second guessing myself. If a cop kills me, I'm confident that my wife will not second guess me either. She may do what she can to seek justice for my untimely and undeserved death-by-a-trigger-happy cop, but she'll know that I was just doing what I always try my hardest to do - live my beliefs.

Courage is not the absence of fear, it's facing the threat in spite of the fear. The population being as scared of cops as they are in today's society is enough in and of itself for me to say "Grow a freakin' set already." You have every right and reason to fear cops these days, and that's true whether you're in a gunfight with a bad guy or not. Hell, that can be true if you just follow his command to show him your driver's license. As valid as the fear is, people who carry guns daily had better learn how to control (as best they can) the physiological effects of being thrown suddenly into a violent and deadly situation, and that learning how to control your own body starts not with dwelling on the fear, but training for how to deal with it. If you're scared when all you're doing is thinking about what might happen while nothing is actually happening at the time, then how much more powerful and debilitating will your fear be when shots ring out, tunnel vision sets in, adrenaline prevents you from even feeling that you've been injured, your ears are ringing and rushing and maybe that odor you smell is the load that let loose in your pants?

I don't say these things to mock you for your admitted fear - I say them to encourage you to learn how to overcome it to the highest degree possible. I know that training is expensive. I know it's time-consuming and may even require going out of town to find the best you can afford. But what's preferable, getting scared when you just read a piece by people you don't even know, or being able to suss out for yourself how to approach with a clear mind whatever scenario you might one day find yourself in, while employing the good tactics and physiology control you've learned from professionals who are paid to cater to your individual needs? Seems a no-brainer to me, but either way, I wouldn't say, "Grow a freakin' set already" if I didn't know from personal experience that training is available to teach you how to do just that.

Blues

 

[Ringo]

Let me tell you about people who can't tell the good guys from the bad guys, but choose to toe the battle lines anyway.

Forrest Sibley was the only son of my best friend, Brent. He was deployed for his fourth tour in Afghanistan, and as a forward air controller, saw many battles in areas he had to hump 150 lb. rucks for miles to even get to. His compatriots spoke of him at his funeral as one of the most selfless, bravest men among their ranks, and he had the ribbons and medals to prove the truth of those statements.

Forrest didn't die in an engagement out in the hinterlands. He was at a vehicle checkpoint at Camp Antonik, a forward operating base in Helmand Province, when a "good guy" in an Afghani Security Forces uniform opened fire on him and a Captain that he was traveling with. It is not reported officially for security purposes of both families, but Forrest and the Capt. fought back as they were dying, and "rumor" has it that their actions saved anyone else from being hurt or killed. The "rumor" comes from the men he served with, one of them being his best friend all the way through his life from Kindergarten.

That Afghani "good guy" was no different than the San Bernadino killers, or any of the hundreds of other barbarian attacks perpetrated around the world by these scum. They hide in plain sight amongst their enemies and take them out in the most horrific ways they can imagine.

Will I fight them if I encounter them? You freakin' betcha. Will I run and hide for fear of being mistaken for one of them by LE? Hell no I won't, because I'm just as likely to die from an LEO's bullet for being mistaken for a free American anyway. And I sure as Hell don't need no stinkin' LEO or CoP or Sheriff to tell me what to carry, when to carry, where to carry, or why I should carry, and that was true for years before Forrest even joined the Air Force.

All this slobbering over cops who are spewing BS about "privileges" to carry and such is just sickening to me. And the hand-wringing over whether or not to engage the enemy who not only say, but prove over and over and over again that they want to kill us, is even more sickening to me.

Grow a freakin' set already.

Blues

​

I didn't read the article. I'm a vet and my best friend's son never lived to be a vet, so I've learned all the lessons I'm interested in learning about good-guy/bad-guy scenarios from vets who are total strangers to me. That said, I took what you said about the article at face value, and my post was directed to those whose words you characterized and/or quoted or anyone who thinks like they do. You did mention the cops who are taking such a strong stand (HA!) concerning our rights, so to a minor degree that part was in response to you, but it amazes me how many people on the other two forums I frequent are taking those cops' urgings to carry as some kind of major act of courage and high principle. Considering that it is We, The People who forbade the government from infringing on the right to keep and bear arms, it should be Us, The People telling them when, why, where and whether we will carry or not, and they shouldn't have one single word to say about it, pro or con. One of the Forums I'm on is called The Tree of Liberty, and even there, with all the liberty-loving essence of Thomas Jefferson invoked by just those four words, there are people bowing in gratitude and excited, breathless praise for these tyrants who talk about our rights as a privilege that they have total control over. To them also I say, "Grow a freakin' set already."

Then again you say in the same post that I may "mistake you" that it scares you to think that a cop might mistake you for a bad guy. Look, I'm in no hurry to die, especially not by gunfire, and especially not by gunfire or IED or hatchet or scimitar from a scumbag musloid terrorist, and regardless of whether or not it's terrorists or your run-of-the-mill junkierobberrapistburglarknock-outgame American threatening me, mine or a stranger with deadly force, yeah, I'll be scared, but I'll damn sure not be frozen in place from fear, and I'll not second guess myself once I've concluded that, but for my willingness to engage, someone who shouldn't is going to die. If a cop shoots at me, no second guessing myself. If a cop shoots and wounds me, no second guessing myself. If a cop kills me, I'm confident that my wife will not second guess me either. She may do what she can to seek justice for my untimely and undeserved death-by-a-trigger-happy cop, but she'll know that I was just doing what I always try my hardest to do - live my beliefs.

Courage is not the absence of fear, it's facing the threat in spite of the fear. The population being as scared of cops as they are in today's society is enough in and of itself for me to say "Grow a freakin' set already." You have every right and reason to fear cops these days, and that's true whether you're in a gunfight with a bad guy or not. Hell, that can be true if you just follow his command to show him your driver's license. As valid as the fear is, people who carry guns daily had better learn how to control (as best they can) the physiological effects of being thrown suddenly into a violent and deadly situation, and that learning how to control your own body starts not with dwelling on the fear, but training for how to deal with it. If you're scared when all you're doing is thinking about what might happen while nothing is actually happening at the time, then how much more powerful and debilitating will your fear be when shots ring out, tunnel vision sets in, adrenaline prevents you from even feeling that you've been injured, your ears are ringing and rushing and maybe that odor you smell is the load that let loose in your pants?

I don't say these things to mock you for your admitted fear - I say them to encourage you to learn how to overcome it to the highest degree possible. I know that training is expensive. I know it's time-consuming and may even require going out of town to find the best you can afford. But what's preferable, getting scared when you just read a piece by people you don't even know, or being able to suss out for yourself how to approach with a clear mind whatever scenario you might one day find yourself in, while employing the good tactics and physiology control you've learned from professionals who are paid to cater to your individual needs? Seems a no-brainer to me, but either way, I wouldn't say, "Grow a freakin' set already" if I didn't know from personal experience that training is available to teach you how to do just that.

Blues

Link Removed​

 

[Wild Dog]

Combat veterans shoot down the NRA: ‘Good guy with a gun’ is based on a ‘fantasy world’

this is what scares me about fighting active shooter - if you're holding a gun cops likely to shoot you when they show up not knowing you're a good guy. Also, if there are other permit holders who decide to shoot it's hard to tell if they're with you or one of the bad guys. And no matter how much training you have, you have no clue how much the other permit holder (s). have. Anyway, please read the article before telling me I'm crazy :fie:

In my experience, it's a moot point. Each time I've dropped the hammer on an active shooter, each time I've pitted my skills against his, I always came out on top. And by the time the cops showed up, my weapons were already holstered and I was smoking a celebratory cigarette just as the dirtbag was smoking in Hell.

 

[indyyy]

it amazes me how many people on the other two forums I frequent are taking those cops' urgings to carry as some kind of major act of courage and high principle.

I don't see cops urging citizen's to carry as a high principle or act of courage. People who carried before their urgings still carry and i doubt that very few if any started carrying because of the urgings. I see it simply as a change in language, they seem to be saying carry because they might need help - especially if terrorist attacks become more commonplace in the US.

I'm sure if there are not more attacks in the near future their language will again sound like 'we have everything under control, call us when you need us, you don't need to carry, we'll take care of and protect you' etc.

 

[BluesStringer]

I don't see cops urging citizen's to carry as a high principle or act of courage. People who carried before their urgings still carry and i doubt that very few if any started carrying because of the urgings. I see it simply as a change in language, they seem to be saying carry because they might need help - especially if terrorist attacks become more commonplace in the US.

Did you take a look at the link in my last post? Have you ever clicked on the link in my sig-line? Terrorist attacks are not "becoming" more commonplace in the US, they are more commonplace, and though most of them only accomplish onesies and twosies as far as body-count or hospital stays go, the numbers of their attacks are immeasurably more frequent than even bin Laden himself ever dreamt of accomplishing.

I'm not minimizing the notion that middle eastern terrorists would love to be regular players here in the Heartland, I'm just saying that they aren't the only terrorists we need to concern ourselves with, and that the ones I'm more concerned about have set up their hunting grounds very well indeed, as they have fooled so many into believing that they are actually here to help. Part of that facade is using the awesome power their badges and wholly-manufactured image as protectors affords them to make the blind and ignorant believe that the language they use makes one wit of difference in their every-day lives. Don't be blind, and don't be ignorant, because what they say don't matter a wit to your or your community's safety.

Blues

 

[Blueshell]

Combat veterans shoot down the NRA: ‘Good guy with a gun’ is based on a ‘fantasy world’

this is what scares me about fighting active shooter - if you're holding a gun cops likely to shoot you when they show up not knowing you're a good guy. Also, if there are other permit holders who decide to shoot it's hard to tell if they're with you or one of the bad guys. And no matter how much training you have, you have no clue how much the other permit holder (s). have. Anyway, please read the article before telling me I'm crazy :fie:

Police aren't present when the shooting occurs, for misidentification to be an issue

 

[Blueshell]

You miss my meaning. When the cops arrive I'm not standing over the dead bad guy's body with gun in hand. There are a couple of bad guys and a couple of good guys (i'm one of the good guys) still shooting at each other when the cops arrive. This is a movie theater, remember ? We don't hear sirens to announce the cops have arrived. There's a cop car in the parking lot, so there's atleast one somewhere in the building (it has 8 theaters, so who knows where he is). And he'll probably wait for back up before he comes into the room that we're shooting in - so 5 or 6 of them will open the door and join the shootout without notice.

While he's waiting for back up, you'll be shot.

 

[Caper01]

My 2 cents on the subject Article’s twist. To make my point I need to share a true storywith you…

Several years ago we had a shooting where I worked,workplace shooting I guess is the correct term. Though I don’t know if we’ll ever find out why Michael Burns did what hedid. One day Burns went to his truck in thecompany parking lot during lunch and retrieved a pistol, 9mm if I remembercorrectly, ammo, etc. He walked backinto the manufacturing plant with pistol in hand, arm down along his side untilpassing a coworker and friend of mine walking the opposite direction. Burns raised the pistol and shot him pointblank range in the heart as he walked by. Burns then proceeded to walk to the die cast department shooting atanyone he saw. He walked through thetool and die shop again shooting at anyone he could find. Even fired a round that imbedded in the doorjambof my office. He then retraced his stepsand went up to the cafeteria where most people were still eating and startedshooting hitting a number of them. Therewas only one entry / exit to the cafeteria except for a rear door allowingescape by jumping from the 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] floor to a concrete first floor. A worker nicknamed Catfish had escaped out therear when Burns had left the cafeteria. Heading back towards the die cast area upon seeing already injured Catfishjump to the floor Burns walked over and shot him another 7 times.

Now Burns, heading back towards the die cast departmentveers into the maintenance area finding the die cast supervisor and twomaintenance guys (all friends of mine). He shot the die cast supervisor once or twice in the gut and James wentdown. Burns shot David in the gut andDarrel in the ribs as they sought cover behind a couple of toolboxes. No one left to shoot at Burns had paused fora moment. Maybe to reload. Now Darrel and David decided they would notsimply lay there behind the toolboxes and just let Burns come finish themoff. Darrel picked up a length ofconduit and rushed Burns hitting his gun arm with the conduit, breaking his arm. James had picked himself up, grabbed a spaceheater and hit Burns in the head with it. The three of them kept Burns subdued until authorities arrived. If they had a concealed carry firearm Darrelwouldn’t have had to rush the guy on a hope and a prayer with a piece of ½”conduit.

Believe it or not there was only one fatality that day, thefirst guy shot. Eight others shot,Catfish survived but quadriplegic. Months of recovery and rehab for some. To my knowledge Burns is still in prison and will remain there for life.

Now back to the article. Those Vets are probably correct on a lot of points. But, as has been proven in studies by the militaryno one, and I mean NO ONE who has not been in those situations knows how theywill react until they actually live it. Firsttime into it most freeze at least for a while, some panic, a very smallpercentage retain rational thought.
James, Darrel, and David may have frozen at first(speculation by me) upon seeing Burns bearing down on them with a pistol. But after getting shot they kept their sensesand found cover, and then decided they wouldn’t be gunned down likesheep. These guys DID simply becomeheroes in the highest stress situation. It can happen and does happen.
So just because someone isn’t a seasoned combat veterandoesn’t mean they cannot or will not do the right thing. And it certainly does not give anyone causeto restrict our 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] Amendment rights because we might not perform aswell as a hero.

Most legitimate concealed carry people I know give plenty ofthought to the responsibility of carrying a firearm and seek training. Both of which will mitigate all of the issuesbrought up in the article.

Definitely a hit piece on the NRA and gun owners.

 

[indyyy]

Did you take a look at the link in my last post? Have you ever clicked on the link in my sig-line?

Let's see... in my OP I asked respondents to please read the article I linked before telling me I'm crazy so that respondents would know what I was referring to. You tell me you didn't read the article I linked but proceed to tell me I'm crazy anyway. And then you ask if I read the stuff that you link in your post and sig line?

Hahahahahahaha - hell no i didn't read the crap you linked. Get off your high horse and chat with people like you're an equal rather than the all knowing wise one- maybe then i'll take a look.

 

[indyyy]

Thanks for the post Caper01. Sounds like you read the article I linked and have thought thru some of this. I, personally have never been in a situation where a shooter was shooting at me or people around me. But I Have been practicing martial arts and yoga for about 40 years and have been in a few fist fights. So I know of the flight, freeze, or fight response, that instinct takes over in a fight/critical situation and that all the thinking, planning, and training is done before and/or after.

 

[the dark]

So apparently, to these people, the answer is to give up, do nothing. I'd rather take the chance on all of their imagined issues than simply die in place. Given LE response times, in a case like in CA, I'll either be dead or succeed before LEOs arrive on scene. Either way it will be on my feet, not on my knees.

 

[Caper01]

My apologies on spacing, or lack thereof. I composed the post in MS Word and then copied & pasted into the forum editor. Looked good there but after posting some of the formatting was lost.

 

[Caper01]

So apparently, to these people, the answer is to give up, do nothing. I'd rather take the chance on all of their imagined issues than simply die in place. Given LE response times, in a case like in CA, I'll either be dead or succeed before LEOs arrive on scene. Either way it will be on my feet, not on my knees.

My guess is the author is taking snippets of interviews and manipulating them to his liberal view. I've known plenty of veterans and LE, very few if any are against carrying a firearm for self defense.

 

[Farmhood]

Combat Vet's Shoot Down "Good Guys With Guns" idea

The Nanny State battle cry..."somebody do something"

 

[indyyy]

I reread the article and can see how some of you see it as anti gun. After San Bernardino, the recent record sales of guns that resulted, and LE in some cities encouraging permit holders to carry if they aren't already carrying and to take out shooters if they can, I read it as a suggestion to people who carry to get some training if they don't have any. The article does say several times that people who don't have training or are inexperienced are likely to do this or that.

On the other hand, I would think that most who buy a gun for self defense do some target practice and learn how to use the gun even if they don't pay more to take a tactical training course or something more advanced. I simply can't imagine someone buying a gun and carrying it without shooting it and becoming comfortable with it first, though I've seen a few post who seem to suggest it happens all the time.

 

[tcfiero]

From the information I gathered, the vets were in a different building than the shooting. If I am in a complex with an active shooter but not in the same building, I am not running to the commotion. Now if I am in the same building, I will try for cover and concealment and prepare to engage if and when the shooter comes close.

Sent from my SM-T320 using Tapatalk

 

[gvaldeg1]

Thanks Caper01! Interesting story and great comments, I agree with you completely.