CCW'er Defends Himself at Walmart (N Las Vegas)

[Treo]

If the guy has no weapon other than his bare hands, you are likely looking at jail time for manslaughter. Legally "grievous bodily harm" is not a reasonable expectation from a bare handed attack. It is a possibility, but not a reasonable expectation sufficient to warrant deadly force. This not my opinion, but a paraphrase of one of the most popular texts on criminal law.

Like I said I can only assume you've never been in a real fight. IE one in which the other guy is trying to kill you.

As I asked before, while you are down there on the ground how are you going to stop me from literally jumping both feet on to your chest (crushed rib cage) or kicking your head like a foot ball?

This isn't high school homeboy, do you really want to trust the good intentions of a random criminal who is pissed off enough at you to knock you to the ground?

I can't help you overcome the mental block in your head but I promise you in the real world if you get knocked to the ground in a fight ( again, why are you engaged in fisticuffs in the first place?) you are in real danger.

 

[Couch Potato]

Like I said I can only assume you've never been in a real fight. IE one in which the other guy is trying to kill you.

As I asked before, while you are down there on the ground how are you going to stop me from literally jumping both feet on to your chest (crushed rib cage) or kicking your head like a foot ball?

This isn't high school homeboy, do you really want to trust the good intentions of a random criminal who is pissed off enough at you to knock you to the ground?

I can't help you overcome the mental block in your head but I promise you in the real world if you get knocked to the ground in a fight ( again, why are you engaged in fisticuffs in the first place?) you are in real danger.

First, you are incorrect in your assumption about my past history.

Second, you don't seem to get it. I am not saying the danger is not real, but that the law is quite clear on the consequences of shooting an unarmed person.

Third, if you really fear for your life, do you give a damn what the law says?

 

[armed-an-rdy]

lol

Just for the sake of argument, I have to ask this question. If that is the case, why is it so many veterans are charged with assault with intent to do great bodily harm as a result of self defense? Anyone who has taken martial arts or who has had some form of military hand to hand combat training can be just as screwed if they use their hands as if they use their firearm. As a martial artist I was taught the amount of damage that you can do if you are not careful, and being prior military the same holds true there.

More often than not, you don't know the background of the person attacking you, so if they do, there is no telling what will happen.

I was attacked at one point by a rated black belt, he swung across my left shoulder from behind me and broke my jaw clean in 2 pieces, knocked a tooth out, split another tooth in half, and opened up a crater in the back of my mouth big enough for me to stick my thumb in. 118 stitches, a metal plate, and 2 screws later the idea of use of comparable force had a new definition for me.

and what if it was frankenstein.

 

[Couch Potato]

and what if it was frankenstein.

I certainly wouldn't be afraid of some doctor/scientist type. Now if it was Frankenstein's monster that would be a different matter.

 

[armed-an-rdy]

wasting your time

First, you are incorrect in your assumption about my past history.

Second, you don't seem to get it. I am not saying the danger is not real, but that the law is quite clear on the consequences of shooting an unarmed person.

Third, if you really fear for your life, do you give a damn what the law says?

iagree with you couch potato, but no one here seems to understand the law. they read the part of the penal code that suits them.justification of deadly phsycal force.you can use a force equal to the force being used against you to stop such for force. no matter what state you live in.if you get into a situation where you have to defend your self always keep this in mind.if you are attacked by 1 person and hes using only his fist does not mean you can shoot a person.learn how to fight.however if they have a knife you can use your weapon .use phsical force to stop py[hysical force use deadly force to stop deadly force.the way these ppl talk i bet half of them dont own a gun:fie:

 

[CalicoJack10]

and what if it was frankenstein.

What???? :sarcastic: My dad Can kick your Dad's A**!!!!

 

[Treo]

FWIW if enough people down rate a post it disappears. Just sayin'

 

[ClearSightTactical]

First, you are incorrect in your assumption about my past history.

Second, you don't seem to get it. I am not saying the danger is not real, but that the law is quite clear on the consequences of shooting an unarmed person.

Third, if you really fear for your life, do you give a damn what the law says?

There are many circumstances in which the above would be justified. Research the disparity of force.

 

[armed-an-rdy]

slow

Every State has different Laws, in this State (SC) if you are attacked and think your life is in danger you can respond with a Gun shot, there will be no Civil Law Suits. Equal force does not apply. If the other person is committing a Felony there are no rules to help him.

your reading and comprehention is waaay off

 

[Couch Potato]

There are many circumstances in which the above would be justified. Research the disparity of force.

I would argue the word "some" is more appropriate than "many," but do note "disparity of force" would not include the other person simply gaining the upper hand and knocking you to the ground.

 

[Treo]

I would argue the word "some" is more appropriate than "many," but do note "disparity of force" would not include the other person simply gaining the upper hand and knocking you to the ground.

Again, why did he attack you in the first place (if you started the fight your justification is nonexistant) ? What are his motives? Is he pressing the attack? How old is he? how fit is he? How fit am I in comparrison?

 

[oldbanjo]

) “Crime of violence” means murder, manslaughter (except negligent manslaughter arising out of traffic accidents), rape, mayhem, kidnapping, burglary, robbery, housebreaking, assault with intent to kill, commit rape, or rob, assault with a dangerous weapon, or assault with intent to commit any offense punishable by imprisonment for more than one year.

 

[oldbanjo]

Under the Model Penal Code and the codes of the states that follow it, mayhem is encompassed by assault and aggravated assault.

 

[ClearSightTactical]

I would argue the word "some" is more appropriate than "many," but do note "disparity of force" would not include the other person simply gaining the upper hand and knocking you to the ground.

Where do you get your information? Surely, you can cite your reasoning on the explanation of disparity of force? You guys are seriously getting old with the argumentative, non fact based statements. Please note the section i've underlined above, and the section i've bolded below and see the contradiction. Please support your statement.

According to the world renown expert on deadly force encounters Massad Ayoob:

You, the general public, often do not realize that it is justifiable to use the deadly force of a firearm in defense against an ostensibly unarmed person. The law calls these "disparity of force" cases. When a bare-handed assault is so one-sided it is likely to cause death or great bodily harm, the greater power of the attacker becomes the equivalent of a deadly weapon. that warrants the victim's recourse to a per se lethal weapon in self-defense.

We've established *or hereby establish* for purposes of this conversation that you were minding your own business, didn't know the attacker and were not the aggressor.
CITE: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_154_25/ai_77824400/

 

[Nightmare45]

Actually been in a "Knock Down" as a younger man got my but kicked bad, as an older man 65, in ok shape, you will get the chance to quit only once. In Texas, the number of folks involved, age differance, size differance, (dispairty of force) does allow for force up to and including deadly force, if you can stop the attack by removing and pointing your pistol ok, if the attack continues I may be going to court but the BG and as many of his friends I have rounds for will be going some place else. Removing yourself from the issue is the first option. Threat continuing then all bets are off and I will take my chances with the courts, I will be there by myself.

 

[armed-an-rdy]

i didnt know

Where do you get your information? Surely, you can cite your reasoning on the explanation of disparity of force? You guys are seriously getting old with the argumentative, non fact based statements. Please note the section i've underlined above, and the section i've bolded below and see the contradiction. Please support your statement.

According to the world renown expert on deadly force encounters Massad Ayoob:



We've established *or hereby establish* for purposes of this conversation that you were minding your own business, didn't know the attacker and were not the aggressor.
CITE: Against The Unarmed: A Disparity Of Force Shooting | American Handgunner | Find Articles at BNET

i didnt know being throw to the ground was one sided you still have a chance to get up and or run away. you can also fight back.massad ayoob ,doesnt write the law.again use phsycal force to stop phsycal .if were getting old with this topic dont come back. myself and couch potatoe are trying to educate you guys.if someone bumps into you on perpose will you pull your gun,the bump could dislocate your shoulder and you could go into shock and have a heart attack and die. it could happen so shoot him before it does.

 

[Treo]

WARNING
The following response

i didnt know being throw to the ground was one sided you still have a chance to get up and or run away. you can also fight back.massad ayoob ,doesnt write the law.again use phsycal force to stop phsycal .if were getting old with this topic dont come back. myself and couch potatoe are trying to educate you guys.if someone bumps into you on perpose will you pull your gun,the bump could dislocate your shoulder and you could go into shock and have a heart attack and die. it could happen so shoot him before it does.

Was posted by a troll who has no interest in promoting RKBA.

 

[ClearSightTactical]

i didnt know being throw to the ground was one sided you still have a chance to get up and or run away. you can also fight back.massad ayoob ,doesnt write the law.again use phsycal force to stop phsycal .if were getting old with this topic dont come back. myself and couch potatoe are trying to educate you guys.if someone bumps into you on perpose will you pull your gun,the bump could dislocate your shoulder and you could go into shock and have a heart attack and die. it could happen so shoot him before it does.

Where do you live? How old are you? I've gone to the ground in on duty altercations more times than I'm prepared to mention and I can assure you that if you're on the ground when the other person is standing you have a less than 1% chance of "getting up and running away" or "fighting back". In L.E its called "CODE BLACK" when you're on the ground and the person is standing, code black is also known as "OH Shoot, You're F'd".

Trying to educate us? You've been here for a week where do you get off telling people not to come back? Being thrown to the ground is indeed one-sided. You act as though we're talking about someone accidentally tripping or bumping into you. If that is what you've gathered then you not only have poor judgment, but also poor deductive reasoning. Again for this conversation we're assuming that we are being attacked by an unknown person, for an unknown reason, that was unprovoked.

For all intents and purposes we have to assume that an unprovoked attacker wants 3 things (either, or all..) Your BODY, Your PROPERTY, or YOUR LIFE. This is a well accepted theory and could be articulated by many leading self defense professionals such as Tony Blauer. In either case that would be a felony (body=criminal sexual contact....Property=robbery...Life=Murder).

You're playing devils advocate, and its been fun. But again (for the 3rd time) please cite something credible, and in case that's too subtle for you. Your anecdotal BS is not credible.

We're just going to have to disagree on this, welcome to the forums, look forward to more of your valuable, professional, and credible insights.

 

[Nightmare45]

Tnx clear site, I have been bumped into hundreds of times been knocked down, now if several folks are knocking me down with force that is called assault. PS: Just said I was old, don't equate old with stupid, slow or no capability of defending myself. Good thread though. Know a bunch of other old guys in Houston area, and on ranches in South Texas assulting them would be a tactical error.

 

[S&W645]

i didnt know being throw to the ground was one sided you still have a chance to get up and or run away. you can also fight back.massad ayoob ,doesnt write the law.again use phsycal force to stop phsycal .if were getting old with this topic dont come back. myself and couch potatoe are trying to educate you guys.if someone bumps into you on perpose will you pull your gun,the bump could dislocate your shoulder and you could go into shock and have a heart attack and die. it could happen so shoot him before it does.

Why do I have to get up and run away? You must live in a "you have to retreat" state. I do not. The law gives me the right to stand my ground. If I have a right to be there, I don't have to leave unless I want to. The attacker may leave in a manner that may not include breathing. I hope it never comes to it but you have to be prepared.