CCW Holder shot by LVMPD - Justified?????


For the record...

For the record...

Every stinking Costco in Clark County, Nevada alone has recorded surveillance 24x7 throughout the store and covering the parking lot and entrance coming and going...

One of my son-in-laws works for a Costco here in Clark County, Nevada and I have a membership as well... pretty easy for anybody whom looks around inside any Costco I have been in to see the very conspicuous physical and electronic surveillance in-place...

This whole case stinks to high-heaven of a Cover-Up...
 

Bohemian said:
For the record...

Every stinking Costco in Clark County, Nevada alone has recorded surveillance 24x7 throughout the store and covering the parking lot and entrance coming and going...

One of my son-in-laws works for a Costco here in Clark County, Nevada and I have a membership as well... pretty easy for anybody whom looks around inside any Costco I have been in to see the very conspicuous physical and electronic surveillance in-place...

This whole case stinks to high-heaven of a Cover-Up...
Click to expand...

I am a CC Costco member and never seen a sign posted "NO FIREARMS ALLOWED" is there such a sign outside any Costco that you know of?
 
danfordman said:
I am a CC Costco member and never seen a sign posted "NO FIREARMS ALLOWED" is there such a sign outside any Costco that you know of?
Click to expand...

I have yet to see any such sign in any Costco, and in at least Nevada even with such a sign it is unenforceable...

The only thing they or any other privately owned business that posts such a sign can do is ask you to leave IF you are open carrying or you have a wardrobe malfunction and a tell of your c-c; IF you refuse they can have you arrested for trespassing...
That is it...

Not long ago I was made at a major Casino here in Vegas while gambling and security asked if I was carrying and my response was "I have a CCW AND I am carrying" in that order...
They thanked me for my time and suggested that in the future I wear something else not likely to reveal an unintentional tell...
AND I resumed gambling...

Summertime in Vegas makes concealed carry a challenge in shorts, flip-flops and a t-shirt...

dropping down to a Sig p232-sl and a "pager pal" holster have simplified that quite a bit...

ConcealCity.com

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I did see 1 Costco with a no guns sign in Sparks, NV. That was the only one that I have seen. I also don't shop there anymore, I goto the one in Reno.
 
I read billtt's comments and, quite frankly, the angry tone of his words goes beyond some currently unfounded outrage over events that neither he nor any of us know fully. He seems to have a propensity to be angry about LEOs to the point of seeming to want to include all of them as trigger happy maniacs and I totally disagree with him; he actually seems to be angry at just about everything and, quite frankly, being CCW and being angry do not, IMO, coexist admirably. Until someone or an article can clearly articulate the specifics of this case and can prove the LEOs wrong, I still stand on their side and do not intend to continue any further dialog on this subject. Lighten up a bit billt, it will improve your health.
 
It seems to stink to high heaven but I still reserve my thoughts. I was a witness in one murder trial this spring and have two more trials to go through this January. A lot of things seemed blantantly obvious to me but the authorities would not release the info until the last minute. That could be the case here why they are not releasing anything until all their ducks are in a row.
 
Your comments make sense. They also go to show that if you need legal help, don't depend on anything you read on this forum. There are people here that don't have a clue. They also have a very unhealthy attitude towards Law Enforcement.
Maybe the police in this Costco city deserve it, but the Police in ALL cities certainly don't!
 
Bohemian said:
I have yet to see any such sign in any Costco, and in at least Nevada even with such a sign it is unenforceable...

The only thing they or any other privately owned business that posts such a sign can do is ask you to leave IF you are open carrying or you have a wardrobe malfunction and a tell of your c-c; IF you refuse they can have you arrested for trespassing...
That is it...

Not long ago I was made at a major Casino here in Vegas while gambling and security asked if I was carrying and my response was "I have a CCW AND I am carrying" in that order...
They thanked me for my time and suggested that in the future I wear something else not likely to reveal an unintentional tell...
AND I resumed gambling...

Summertime in Vegas makes concealed carry a challenge in shorts, flip-flops and a t-shirt...

dropping down to a Sig p232-sl and a "pager pal" holster have simplified that quite a bit...

ConcealCity.com

Link Removed

Link Removed
Click to expand...

Nice piece. No matter how you cut the pie, Sig knows how to build a gun.:laugh:
 
kelcarry said:
Absolutely agree with gunsite. Contrary to some, who somehow have an exaggerated "conspiracy theory" that all LEOs can't wait to shoot their guns, it is much more likely that and probably totally likely that this individual responded in a manner that ended up causing his death. In any interraction with the police you do EVERYTHING they ask of you and command you to do. If you find this not to your liking, I would advise you not to CCW--you have been given an awesome responsibility to follow the law, which means, IMO, to follow the words of the men and women who have been entrusted in being the law enforcers. That is the way the system works--if you don't like it get off the CCW train before you get seriously hurt or incarcerated.
Click to expand...

Dang, how many times have I tried to say this here and on other forums. But you have a select few who hate Police anyway, so nothing you say can convince them that Police aren't Trigger happy Nazi's, hellbent on hurting or shooting someone when they wake up in the morning. You people who believe that crap and follow one conspiracy theory after another are FOOLS!!! You can't see the truth in anything, because Alex Jones has already made up your mind for you. It's going to hurt you and all of us in the long run, because you can't dialogue with anyone. The truth is clouded by all of the internet crap that you feed yourself, to the point that reason is worthless. The only ones who really know, are the ones that were there and the investigation team that has to peice this thing together.
I've tried to talk to some people about how to deal with Police when confronted or approached about CCW, but the only thing you get is total defiance and lousy attitude. Therefore, the Police will have the SAME ATTITUDE when dealing with you. It's the reason that many of them feel the way they do about people with guns. Just do what they tell you and talk about it after they feel more at ease and have disarmed you. THEY ONLY KNOW WHAT WAS GIVEN TO THEM BY THE DISPATCHER OVER THE RADIO, AND THE DISPATCHER ONLY KNOWS WHAT WAS GIVEN TO THEM BY THE 911 CALLER. I have heard 911 calls that basically said, this is the manager at Wal-Mart, there's a crazy guy walking around here with a gun, CLICK. Meanwhile the dispatcher is giving the call to officers, while trying to get back in touch with the caller. So you show up with a badge and a gun at WalMart. What do you do? Just walk around until you find out if he's a psyco with a 30 round AK ready to kill everyone, or is it a hunter bringing back the damaged gun he just bought, or a CCW holder has an exposed gun or what? Does the Manager think everyone with a gun is crazy, or was the guy doing something crazy?

Second on the list. How many times have you people heard someone say it's best to STFU after a shooting. Good advice, give only the very basics and get a lawyer. Experts will usually give you that advice. THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT THE POLICE DO IN THE AFTERMATH, LIKE THEY ARE DOING HERE. They are not going to be tried by the media, as they are even now, but if the media had ALL of the info and evidence, the trial would be manipulated, twisted and agenda biased by the media,and the public without a trial. Do you think some lawyers will not manipulate and grandstand in front of the cameras regardless of if the Cop is right or not? Even some politicians will crucify you just to get a few more votes. They will ruin your life to maintain their power. Some of you say, STFU after the shooting, but you want the cops to blab everything they did that day. WTF?
You see how the media and many of YOU are handling the situation and info you have now. Some of you blame everything on the cops and want them swinging from the end of a rope, no trial, no explaination. OR, they can give them a trial, just execute them afterward. It's just the cops shot an innocent man, hang 'em. THAT IS EXACTLY HOW IT WILL BE WITH YOU, WHEN YOU SHOOT SOMEONE. Even if he's a drug dealing illegal immigrant with a 20 year arrest record and a child molester. Though probably on a smaller scale. I can hear the media now. Those Damn trigger happy CCW bastards just can't wait to get out there and shoot some innocent person for doing nothing. When the shoe is on the other foot, you will see the light, believe me.
As a retired Police Officer, I can tell you this much. YOU DON'T KNOW THE ENTIRE STORY. YOU WERE NOT THERE. YOU DID NOT HAVE THE INFORMATION I HAD WHEN I SHOWED UP AT THE SCENE. YOU ONLY KNOW WHAT THE MEDIA AND THE RUMOR MILL HAS TOLD YOU. AS A POLICE OFFICER, I AM BEING QUESTIONED, TARRED AND FEATHERED, AND BEATEN DOWN BY LAWYERS, MY SUPERIORS AND THE MEDIA ABOUT THE INCIDENT ON A REGULAR BASIS UNTIL THE HEARING OR TRIAL. IF THEY GIVE ME TIME OFF AFTER THE SHOOTING, I'M NOT ON VACATION. I AM RESTRICTED TO NO TRAVEL, AND HAVE REGULAR INQUIRIES TO ATTEND ABOUT IT AS WELL AS MANDATORY COUNSELING.
I know, becuase I've been there. It happened to me. If the cops are truly wrong on this one, then so be it. If not, and they handled the situation properly, then so be it.
 
So True

Headbanger,

Thank you so much for your comments. What you say is so true. As CCW holders we are responsible for what happens around us. If you show accidentally, and someone calls it in, you are the one responsible for what does, or does not happen. When ever you are confronted by any LEO during a firearm incident, expect anything to happen. KEEP YOUR HANDS IN SIGHT, SHUT UP, OBEY, and you may go home alive.

Innuendos, insults and pure speculation about what went on with this CCW holder and LEO's gets no one anywhere. Eventually the truth will come out without vigilante help. The more you talk, the more your words are likely to come back and bite you.

BB
 
buddy said:
I think there is a tape and it has not been released yet. Simple as that. Why? I don't know, I am not a cop. "I will wait until all the evidence is in"?
Click to expand...

And that is fine. Just ask yourself this. If there is a tape, (and I believe as you do that there is), and it shows questionable actions on the part of the police, it makes perfect sense they are not going to burn their shorts off getting it out to the general public, is it? Now, with that said I'm not "conspiring" about any sort of "theory". It just doesn't add up.

Cops get into these type of situations all the time. There are most always witnesses, video tapes, something that records events that transpire. Police attract attention by the very nature of how they operate. Lights flashing and sirens blaring have a way of attracting attention in a crowded shopping area full of people to begin with.

This guy has no track record of being a no good. It simply looks like he had a bit of a temper, and was having a "bad day". I myself have been in that same position many times. Other patrons "tattled" on him, and his actions were then even more suspect. In come the cops. God only knows what they were told. That dispatcher herself contributed to the bull$h!t by passing along so called "information" about his behaviour to the cops as they rolled. By the time these guys got there a few couldn't help but think they were going to be dealing with a crazed lunatic, not the reality of a simply distraught shopper. Much like a plane crash, it was a sequence of small events that transpired in a specific order that ended in a tragic disaster. If just one of those events had not taken place, the shooting, like the plane crash, wouldn't have happened. This will get sorted out. All I'm saying is when it does, right now I wouldn't be betting on the cops for a good outcome. Naturally, I could be wrong, but the longer this goes on, the more I doubt it. Bill T.
 
hey 1911 Headbanger: Thank you, thank you and thank you and god bless you for serving your citizens as an LEO. In many ways it is a frustrating job when there are the billts out there who seemingly have nothing good to say about almost anything and who are headed for a great deal of trouble if they cannot get their heads out of their holsters as their solutions to everything since LEOs are such misfits in society. With his reply, he just cannot fathom the fact that maybe, just maybe the LEOs are the good guys. I absolutely agree with him that if the eventual evidence proves that the LEOs acted in a reckless manner, they should suffer the consequences of their actions---but this guy just is frothing at the mouth on conspiracy, coverup, bad LEOs, etc etc to the point that he embarrasses himself with his comments.
 
A large AMEN to 1911 Headbanger. It seems that many individuals that possess and carry weapons get on thier soapboxes spouting thier 2nd Amendment rights, but often forget that with rights come responsibilities... If you're confronted by law enforcement officers for an accidental show or for some fellow "concerned citizen" reporting that you're armed, it's NOT the time to "stand up" to defend your right to right to (legally...) carry a concealed weapon! Once the situation is diffused and over, then, and only then, can a discussion be entered into your rights... until that time, follow every direction given, keep your mouth shut, and make no sudden moves, whether you consider them threatening or not.. let the LEO guide/direct you thru the situation. Once the facts have been established and everyone's addreniline levels have returned to normal, THEN a meaningful conversation can be entered into. Grandstanding, or standing on principles (right or wrong) and a most inappropriate time can get you capped... ALWAYS bear in mind that LEO's are our FRIENDS, NOT ADVERSARIES!!!!
 
I didn't think of this before, but could they be delaying the release of the video to avoid contaminating the potential jury pool? If they have a good reason not to release it (and they very well may) then that is perfectly fine but they need to be honest about why they aren't releasing it yet. They may also have to review everything to make sure they followed their policy and procedure manual to the letter. That said, equipment breaks down so it is possible there are technical difficulties in getting the video. The problem is that any time you use that as a reason, true or not, it looks suspicious (note to all retail store general managers and/or owners - MAINTAIN YOUR VIDEO EQUIPMENT!) I also wonder if the fact that they may have to get video from several different cameras and splice it together has anything to do with it.

I stand by my statement that I don't know what happened.

I can certainly understand the LVMPD's hesitancy to release the video to the media. Anyone remember the Rodney King thing? The beginning of the full video supposedly showed him being very violent with the police and pretty much justified most of their actions. The media edited the video so it looked like the cops just pulled him out of the car and beat the snot out of him for no reason. Were it me in charge of releasing the video I would seriously consider just putting the whole d@mn thing on Youtube or something.
 
As far as the whole "witnesses not coming forward" deal, I can easily understand that. If I saw this whole thing, and even had a cell phone video of it showing the cops acting poorly, I wouldn't be so excited about going public with it. I'm sorry, but from a risk vs. reward standpoint, it just wouldn't be worth it. If you incriminate the police with your actions, no personal good is going to come of it. You will be placed at the top of their "$h!t list" so to speak.

The police don't require a license to make your life miserable of you dis them, legally or otherwise. Who needs that kind of crap in their life? While there is no guarantee of that even happening, why take the risk? As is almost always the case, it's simply better and smarter not to get involved. It may not be the best from a "civic duty" standpoint, but from a common sense standpoint it is the way I would go. Life is simply too short to risk unnecessary crap happening to you. Most people have enough day to day issues without going out of their way to create more. Bill T.
 
This shooting was a terrible tragedy for the deceased, his fiance, his family & friends, the officers who did the shooting and their families. Rather than pointing fingers at the officers for being 'trigger happy' we should see what the actual investigation reveals. I believe this was a classic tragedy of errors in judgments on both sides made within seconds.

I've reviewed the safety protocols I teach in my CCW classes - and none of them call for lifting up your shirt or other concealment garment. The safest thing to do is to get your hands up, or interlock your fingers behind your head and comply precisely with the officers' commands - which means getting proned out of whatever they say. You do not try to be 'helpful' by showing them your firearm.

Get down per their commands, let them handcuff you and get things under control. THEN they will find your sidearm in a routine body search and they will find your CCW card. You can explain things after they've secured the scene and you. THEN it's time to sort things out calmly and respectfully.

These officers may have mis-interpreted what he was trying to do. He may also have been responding to conflicting commands given at the same time by more than one officer. Everybody's adrenaline was flowing at the moment and any movement other than precise compliance is what likely led to the shooting. Sad (and avoidable) tragedy for everyone involved.
 
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