CC to & from workplace and public transportation


mtallit

New member
Sorry for a lengthy intro but hopefully this will focus the discussion... I have read that in most states with CC it is legal to keep your firearm in your car on your employer's property (parking lot) even though the employer bans weapons from their property. I'm assuming this is because your car is your personal property AND if you could not keep it in your car that your employer would essentially be denying your 2nd amendment rights during transportation to & from work.

Okay, keep that second part of the last sentence in mind while you ponder my situation. I live and work in Chicago, IL. The SAF lawsuit challenging Illinois' ban on CC had oral arguments last Thursday and from what I've read an opinion could be issued this week. Despite the abundance of liberal activist judges in this area, if the district judge rules based upon the appealed Chicago gun range lawsuit decision (as they should - granted I'm not a lawyer but seems like a slam dunk win for us) then the ban is removed. Should this happen and injunct the current ban without any current carry legislation on the books, I will want to carry immediately... obviously taking into account legal guidance from NRA, SAF and Illinois State Rifle Assoc.

Here's the twist... Chicago is somewhat unique compared to gun friendly cities / states in that we have a well established public transportation system. We have the famous "EL" trains, metra trains (suburbs to city) and a great bus system (within city & between suburbs). As a result, most people who work downtown take some sort of public transportation or live close enough to walk to work. I either walk 15 min to work or take a bus depending on my mood or weather.

How is carrying on public transportation handled in other cities / states? And here's the hard part... If I walk or take public transportation to work (work does not allow firearms), how can I exercise my right since I am not driving my car to leave the gun in? Would my employer have to make some sort of accomodation (lockers in the security room, cage with secure access and lockers in the parking garage, etc.) so that they do not deny me my 2nd amendment right to bear arms and protect myself on my way to and from work? Could they force me to me drive so that I could leave it in my car? Does it make a difference if, although the parking is free to me, is considered taxable compensation to me and I'd basically have a tax bill for driving (e.g. there's a cost to me driving instead of walking)? Is that considered harm since I'd be forced to pay something to practice my right?

Sorry, there's a lot going on here... but does anyone have any thoughts, similar experience or actual legal knowledge of these circumstances?
 

eaccents

New member
Choices...

Sorry for a lengthy intro but hopefully this will focus the discussion... I have read that in most states with CC it is legal to keep your firearm in your car on your employer's property (parking lot) even though the employer bans weapons from their property. I'm assuming this is because your car is your personal property AND if you could not keep it in your car that your employer would essentially be denying your 2nd amendment rights during transportation to & from work.

Okay, keep that second part of the last sentence in mind while you ponder my situation. I live and work in Chicago, IL. The SAF lawsuit challenging Illinois' ban on CC had oral arguments last Thursday and from what I've read an opinion could be issued this week. Despite the abundance of liberal activist judges in this area, if the district judge rules based upon the appealed Chicago gun range lawsuit decision (as they should - granted I'm not a lawyer but seems like a slam dunk win for us) then the ban is removed. Should this happen and injunct the current ban without any current carry legislation on the books, I will want to carry immediately... obviously taking into account legal guidance from NRA, SAF and Illinois State Rifle Assoc.

Here's the twist... Chicago is somewhat unique compared to gun friendly cities / states in that we have a well established public transportation system. We have the famous "EL" trains, metra trains (suburbs to city) and a great bus system (within city & between suburbs). As a result, most people who work downtown take some sort of public transportation or live close enough to walk to work. I either walk 15 min to work or take a bus depending on my mood or weather.

How is carrying on public transportation handled in other cities / states? And here's the hard part... If I walk or take public transportation to work (work does not allow firearms), how can I exercise my right since I am not driving my car to leave the gun in? Would my employer have to make some sort of accomodation (lockers in the security room, cage with secure access and lockers in the parking garage, etc.) so that they do not deny me my 2nd amendment right to bear arms and protect myself on my way to and from work? Could they force me to me drive so that I could leave it in my car? Does it make a difference if, although the parking is free to me, is considered taxable compensation to me and I'd basically have a tax bill for driving (e.g. there's a cost to me driving instead of walking)? Is that considered harm since I'd be forced to pay something to practice my right?

Sorry, there's a lot going on here... but does anyone have any thoughts, similar experience or actual legal knowledge of these circumstances?

I am no lawyer, but I would say that your employer is not actively denying your right to carry if you choose to ride public transportation to work. I also seriously doubt that they have to go out of their way (by giving you a locker) to accommodate your choice of transportation which leaves you with no personal property in which to store your weapon.

For many, choosing to carry includes a willingness to be inconvenienced for the sake of maintaining the ability to carry. Do you dress the way you want to or do you dress around the gun? Do you take the most convenient method of transportation to work or do you drive so that you have a personal storage space for your gun when you go into work?
 

chapinjs

New member
My deepest apologies for not having anything of value to contribute. And I really mean that. But those five paragraphs sum up why I live in the country.
 
I'm with eaccents. The ability to bear arms may be a right; but it is a 'public' right, one that private property owners may deny. And in denying it where they are allowed to, they are under no obligation to make accomodations for you.

To use an unrelated made-up example (I am not a lawyer, so take what I'm writing with a grain of salt, but to me it seems a valid comparison,) lets say you are quadriplegic. Obviously, by the ADA, your employer must make reasonable accommodations for you when working for them. First, they *CAN* deny you a job that truly requires the use of arms or legs. You're not going to be a stock boy at a grocery store when you can't pick things up to put them on the shelf. But you could hold an office job just fine with voice recognition software. They'd even have to allow an assistance animal to be with you.

BUT, lets say one of their benefits is a parking allowance to cover parking at your choice of nearby parking garage. They cover the usual monthly rate for your area. Well, you can't drive. Lets also assume that there is no local transit able to accommodate your wheelchair. (Hence, they can't just give you a bus pass instead.) So, would they be required to pay full taxi fare for you to come to work every day? I would say no. You have rights, things that they MUST accommodate. But they don't have to go out of their way to cover things that aren't a direct impact on your actual WORK.

They wouldn't have to pay for the quadriplegic's taxi ride, and they don't have to provide some way for you to store your concealed weapon.

You need to decide if your 'need' to concealed carry outweighs your willingness to work for an employer that disallows it. If you consider concealed carry more important, find a new job.

eaccents, I dress the way I want. I just happen to dress in a way that makes concealed carry of my chosen weapon easy. (I didn't start dressing this way for ease of concealed carry, and I didn't even pick my gun specifically for ease of concealed carry; just lucky coincidences.)
 

WB9IIE

Master of Poverty Knob
Illinois Concealed Carry Permit Information

"Concealed Permit:
:no:Illinois does not issue concealed weapon permits.
Open Carry:
:no:prohibited in all public areas."

The above is from the Concealed Carry Permit Info tab at the top of Concealed Carry - Reciprocity Maps - Concealed Weapons Permit Info pages. According to what I understand, if I get caught carrying (P.O.V., Public transportation, walking down the street, hovering above the street, breathing Illinois air) I am committing a felony. My Tennessee permit is honored in 38 states, and not honored in 12. If you carry, I wish you the best of luck with any LEO encounters.:smile:
 

mtallit

New member
I am no lawyer, but I would say that your employer is not actively denying your right to carry if you choose to ride public transportation to work. I also seriously doubt that they have to go out of their way (by giving you a locker) to accommodate your choice of transportation which leaves you with no personal property in which to store your weapon.

For many, choosing to carry includes a willingness to be inconvenienced for the sake of maintaining the ability to carry. Do you dress the way you want to or do you dress around the gun? Do you take the most convenient method of transportation to work or do you drive so that you have a personal storage space for your gun when you go into work?

Good point about choices. I knew ahead of time that particular question about making accomodations is possibly a longshot, but consider this... my employer has built bike racks in the parking garage to aid those biking to work. So, they have made accomodations for something as insignificant as biking to work, much less accomodations that would support a constitutional right.

Most downtown buildings have done things like this, so why shouldn't they purchase & mount some lockers? Hey, make us bring our own lock! :pleasantry:
 

mtallit

New member
Illinois Concealed Carry Permit Information

"Concealed Permit:
:no:Illinois does not issue concealed weapon permits.
Open Carry:
:no:prohibited in all public areas."

The above is from the Concealed Carry Permit Info tab at the top of Concealed Carry - Reciprocity Maps - Concealed Weapons Permit Info pages. According to what I understand, if I get caught carrying (P.O.V., Public transportation, walking down the street, hovering above the street, breathing Illinois air) I am committing a felony. My Tennessee permit is honored in 38 states, and not honored in 12. If you carry, I wish you the best of luck with any LEO encounters.:smile:

I know my write-up was long, sorry about that... but I addressed this point regarding the preliminary & permanent injuction lawsuits. One NRA/ISRA and one SAF. SAF one is very close to district court opinion.:biggrin:
 

eaccents

New member
Good point about choices. I knew ahead of time that particular question about making accomodations is possibly a longshot, but consider this... my employer has built bike racks in the parking garage to aid those biking to work. So, they have made accomodations for something as insignificant as biking to work, much less accomodations that would support a constitutional right.

Most downtown buildings have done things like this, so why shouldn't they purchase & mount some lockers? Hey, make us bring our own lock! :pleasantry:

Likely your employer has an interest in promoting biking to work, therefore they went ahead and spent money on installing bike racks.

I'm not sure you would have the same luck in convincing your employer to promote bringing firearms to work. Remember, going green is good for a company's image as it is supposed to encourage your employees to exercise, decrease our carbon footprint, and decrease the overall traffic congestion.

I guess there is no harm in trying, eh?
 

Ecduc8r_NH

Educ8r NH
Trace Atkins summed it up pretty well - your freedom of [whatever] protects you from the government, not [a private citizen].

This means freedom of speech, you can't say whatever you want in a meeting, can you?
Freedom of religion, but you can't go preaching around your office, can you?
Freedom of illegal search, but your bags can be looked at when you enter/exit the building, yes?

This is because you have the ultimate freedom, to not be at the private place, meaning you could get a job at someplace that does allow concealed carry.
 

mtallit

New member
Trace Atkins summed it up pretty well - your freedom of [whatever] protects you from the government, not [a private citizen].

This means freedom of speech, you can't say whatever you want in a meeting, can you?
Freedom of religion, but you can't go preaching around your office, can you?
Freedom of illegal search, but your bags can be looked at when you enter/exit the building, yes?

This is because you have the ultimate freedom, to not be at the private place, meaning you could get a job at someplace that does allow concealed carry.

I think this is a little different. I am not asking to carry at work. Just to store the gun somewhere secure before I enter the work location building. Plus, I can't think of any office employer, I'm a CPA, that would allow carrying unless you work for the FBI, CIA, Police or other such employers.

Plus, your theory totally reflects Chicago's stance on guns. You want one, then live or work someplace else. Hell no!
 

Firefighterchen

OC for Tactical Advantage
There has been similar threads on this before. Your employer does not have to follow the 2nd amendment on his private property. Just like I can't bring a gun into your house and claim 2nd amendment, excusing any trespassing. Your employer can also limit your 1st amendment by not allowing you to make racially or sexual remarks, which you are allowed to do in public. The constitution tells the government, not the citizen, what they can not take away.

Edit: there has been some more replies since I posted. ultimately that is the answer, whether you like it or not, you can find a job that is more gun friendly. Just like we find grocery stores that are gun friendly.

I would say your employer has no obligation to accommodate the security of your firearm if they don't allow firearms on the premise at all.
 

marcparis

New member
On the point of carrying on public transit, in Portland Oregon, according to my CHL instructor, you can ride on Trimet (public transit) with a concealed handgun if you have a CHL. Apparently you can't open carry but I'm not sure if that restriction only applies to non CHL holders. We have preemption in this state (thank God for that) so that public institutions and municipalities can't legally restrict CHL holders (either open or concealed carry) beyond what the state permits . However they can restrict open carry of unlicensed individuals - Portland being the most obvious example. I'm guessing that Trimet is a public institution and probably doesn't have the right to restrict open carry by CHL holders. However I'm not looking to spend thousands of dollars to find out so I keep it concealed (don't like to advertise the fact). As mentioned before private institutions do have the right to restrict your 2nd amendment rights.
 
I'm in Portland, too. Probably one of the most liberal cities in the country. TriMet (our local transit agency,) tries to CLAIM you can't carry, but their regulations are so finely worded that they're obviously trying to obfuscate the fact that they can't legislate CHL holders. (They say they ban all weapons, except where they can't, and when they can't... "Where possession of such weapons cannot be prohibited by law, a person in possession of a weapon may not display or carry the weapon in a manner which is likely to result in fear or alarm by other persons or District employees." (One funny side-effect of their rules: A 'knife' is banned, but a machete isn't. A machete isn't a "knife", and it's not an "instrument, article, device, material or substance specifically designed for, or attempted to be used to, inflict or cause bodily harm to another", it's an agriculture implement.)

AKA: If a driver sees it, they'll freak out, and you'll get in trouble.

But, I've found that the vast majority of Portland businesses have no posted prohibition on concealed carry. My employer (in a high-rise downtown,) has nothing in our employee manual restricting concealed carry, and I even checked with the high-rise security - no prohibition. Therefore, I'm good, in ultra-liberal Portland.
 

marcparis

New member
That's why I'm so glad we have preemption. You know we'd never be able to legally carry in this city if it didn't exist. We'd be as helpless as Londoners in a riot :fie:
 

mtallit

New member
But, I've found that the vast majority of Portland businesses have no posted prohibition on concealed carry. My employer (in a high-rise downtown,) has nothing in our employee manual restricting concealed carry, and I even checked with the high-rise security - no prohibition. Therefore, I'm good, in ultra-liberal Portland.

Wow, I'm jealous! I guess I've been living under the Chicago mindset for so long I would never think that in other cities most employers would allow CC in their offices... Unthinkable! Is that true in cities other than Portland as well?

I work for a major US company though. Their other locations in shall issue states ban them as well... but of course those employees can keep them in their cars. I'd guess ~90% of their employees drive, whereas here in Chicago it's reverse, 90% take public trans.
 

Firefighterchen

OC for Tactical Advantage
mtallit:219311 said:
But, I've found that the vast majority of Portland businesses have no posted prohibition on concealed carry. My employer (in a high-rise downtown,) has nothing in our employee manual restricting concealed carry, and I even checked with the high-rise security - no prohibition. Therefore, I'm good, in ultra-liberal Portland.

Wow, I'm jealous! I guess I've been living under the Chicago mindset for so long I would never think that in other cities most employers would allow CC in their offices... Unthinkable! Is that true in cities other than Portland as well?

I work for a major US company though. Their other locations in shall issue states ban them as well... but of course those employees can keep them in their cars. I'd guess ~90% of their employees drive, whereas here in Chicago it's reverse, 90% take public trans.

I don't know about most. I worked in a company that only allowed firearms in the persons car (Eugene, OR). I carried anyways knowing that if caught I would comply with their decision of letting me go. Hard to say what every company policy is unless you ask, I had to search for it at the last place I worked.
 

Ecduc8r_NH

Educ8r NH
I think this is a little different. I am not asking to carry at work. Just to store the gun somewhere secure before I enter the work location building. Plus, I can't think of any office employer, I'm a CPA, that would allow carrying unless you work for the FBI, CIA, Police or other such employers.

Would my employer have to make some sort of accomodation (lockers in the security room, cage with secure access and lockers in the parking garage, etc.) so that they do not deny me my 2nd amendment right to bear arms and protect myself on my way to and from work?

Plus, your theory totally reflects Chicago's stance on guns. You want one, then live or work someplace else. Hell no!

Your original post asked if the employer would have to accommodate you for your 2nd amendment right, and my answer still stands: your 2nd amendment right ends at the edge of his property. His property, his rules, your SOL. You want to bring your firearm to work and store it on premises, find an employer more willing to allow you. You say "Hell, no" but reality is the employer has the right, legally, morally, and ethically, to make that policy.
 
The thing to remember is that the employer has to EXCLUDE weapons, not include. Many employers I'm sure never even think about it. I'm sure that's the reason mine doesn't have a no guns policy. Ironically, I bet it's more common to *NOT* have such a policy in LESS gun-friendly cities. When it is exceedingly rare for someone to carry, employers don't think about it!

I bet if I started carrying openly, someone would complain, and a new rule would end up in the employee handbook banning guns. (Thankfully - again, in spite of being in fairly gun-unfriendly Portland - I have a decent number of gun-aficionado coworkers. So in my exact work area, I'd likely be fine, but if I were to wander up to accounting or legal, I'd probably draw unwanted attention.)
 

Panheadzz

New member
As much as NY has some of the most restrictive hurdles to cross for CCW, other than the "State" of NYC we can carry anywhere other than courthouse, school,airports, post office, or other federal buildings. I believe they restrict the 10 blocks around the Albany capital area also. I rarely see a NO GUNS sign anywhere.We can carry in bars, sports centers, pretty much anywhere. I am NO authority on this but the NYS website tells you where you can't.
 

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