Carrying in Banks and Churches.

[RockyTopDC]

Hey guys, I have just recently purchased a Ruger LCP and began thinking pretty hard about CCW laws and places I can carry and whatnot when I do get my permit. I was at church today and noticed a No Guns sign on the door, which sparked where those signs typically are like banks, hospitals, schools, and churches. I will not carry in schools or hospitals, but I have a problem with those signs at banks. I would like to carry concealed when inside a bank. I know that if you were to carry inside a place with a sign, and something broke out (like a robbery) and you defended yourself and others, you broke the law by carrying inside a bank, but saved people lives and well being...? I would like to hear yalls responses and personal opinions and perspectives. Thanks.

 

[chiefpropellerhead]

I would highly encourage you to go to the government web site where you live and research the gun laws there. State statutes govern where you can and cannot legally carry. If you break that law you can be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. Living in SC I have seen banks with no prohibitive signs with regards to concealed carry. I did find one that had a sign but it was not the legal type of sign dictated by state law. The sign was very small and placed on the window in a place where you had to search for it. Even though the sign did not meet the legal signage laws I disarmed myself. I was sure to let the bank employees know that if they were going to prohibit legal concealed carry then they need to change their signs. Most churches choose to side on the side of being safe with regards to concealed carry. We recently changed our church home due to moving. I approached the pastor and he initially gave me permission to carry if I have a permit. Just as soon as he spoke to the church attorney he quickly changed his mind. The attorney told him that he should not give anyone explicit permission to carry a concealed firearm on the church grounds. That is because they do not want to be held liable in case something happens. They would rather that the church members be sheep or victims in case of a nutjob coming into the church and doing harm to others. That way they can not be sued, or so they think. The pastor of my church is fully aware of the dangers and I have encouraged him to put together a security team and a written security document for the church that outlines who may and may not carry a concealed weapon.

 

[somewhatliterate]

My bank does not have a sign posted so I have never disarmed when going in there to do business. Of course laws vary from state to state. My church encourages anyone who desires to carry to do so. I know of at least 4 other churches in my town with the same policy. Actually, my church even sponsors a gun club. My pastor being one of the chaplains for the city police department may have some influence on that. Not sure what Gods policy is on concealed carry but I do know Yeshua told his followers to sell their cloak and buy a sword. No, two swords. My personal opinion is that any business owner who does not want me to carry....does not want my business.

 

[Steven Harder]

General rule of thumb on churches, it's considered a sanctuary and guns don't belong. (I've even seen LE lock their side-arm in their car, to attend services.) Then again, in Utah, it's against the law to bring a gun onto church property.

As for banks, if they don't know you and they don't know you tend to carry, don't do it. If a teller were to see your weapon and not know better, they will probably get a little nervous and hit the alarm. Funny thing is, I just talked to my bank about this the other day. They had an off duty LE come in and one of the tellers saw his weapon and freaked. When he realized what was going on, he identified himself and apologized. The bank manager told me that they had no problem with lic. CC holders bringing their weapon in the bank, as long as the bank personnel knew them and that they tended to carry.

In my case, my local bank branches know me, know I have a CCW, and know I may be carrying. Sometimes I carry in the bank, sometimes I don't.

 

[Gary Fox]

If they told me that i couldn't carry my concealed firearm on the church grounds they would not see me back there again, i would find another church to go to!!

 

[medic310]

I think it's a shame that the government takes away the right of good common sense American's to carry concealed everywhere, I really don't think the criminals are going to adhere to those signs!!

 

[BC1]

Then again, in Utah, it's against the law to bring a gun onto church property.

Shall-issue and then retrict where?

 

[TlWheatley]

I always carry in banks and church

 

[Steven Harder]

I probably should clarify a bit on the churches . . . Mennonite, Amish, and Hutterites, will never allow weapons in the church, as it is against their beliefs. I respect their beliefs and will abide by them on this one. Then again, I was kicked out of the Mennonite church for joining the Army and the Infantry . . . yet, I still respect their beliefs on not bearing arms against fellow man AND I will defend their right to their beliefs. I know several Pastors that have permits and carry outside of their church, but whether they carry inside, during services, I don't know. (I do believe they carry inside the church outside of services.)

And as I said, I know it's illegal to carry on church property in UT.

 

[Steven Harder]

Shall-issue and then retrict where?

Carrying a Gun in Utah

In Person

It is unlawful for a person with or without a firearm permit to carry a firearm in the following locations:
Any secure area in which firearms are prohibited and notice of the prohibition is posted
A secure area of an airport
Any courthouse, churches if posted, mental health facility or correctional facility that may provide by rule that no firearm may be transported, sold, given, or possessed upon the facility. At least one notice shall be prominently displayed at each entrance to a secure area in which a dangerous weapon, firearm, or explosive is restricted. (Sources: 53-5-704 Division duties - Utah Code §§ 23-20-11 et seq., 24-2-17, 76-10-301, 76-10-501 et seq.)

Additional info from clicking on the word "churches"

Houses of Worship Prohibiting Firearms on Premises

The following churches have notified BCI of their intent to prohibit firearms in their "houses of worship" in Utah.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

Instructions for notifying the Bureau of Criminal Identification of your intent to prohibit firearms.

Read Utah Code 76-10-530 regarding the prohibition of firearms by Utah houses of worship.

Per state statute, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints made public notice on January 27, 2012 in the Salt Lake Tribune and Deseret News of their intent to prohibit firearms.

Yes, there are other churches in UT and currently, they have not filed with the state, but may still prohibit by posting in accordance with UT law.

 

[decotriumph]

Many large churches have a paid undercover security guard who is definitely armed. The gent who taught my carry class is a church security officer on Sunday mornings when the church has a large amount of cash from collections. I attended a seminar led by Dudley Brown of NAAGR and it was held in a church in Nashville. You KNOW that room was full of concealed weapons!

I carry in my bank and credit union. They are not posted otherwise. If they were, I'd change banks.

 

[Steven Harder]

Since you're an Instructor BC1, here is even more clarification on the issue of firearms on church premises in UT.

Utah Code Title 76 Utah Criminal Code Chapter 10 Section 530
Offenses Against Public Health, Safety, Welfare, and Morals
Trespass with a firearm in a house of worship or private residence -- Notice -- Penalty.

76-10-530. Trespass with a firearm in a house of worship or private residence -- Notice -- Penalty.
(1) A person, including a person licensed to carry a concealed firearm pursuant to Title 53, Chapter 5, Part 7, Concealed Weapon Act, after notice has been given as provided in Subsection (2) that firearms are prohibited, may not knowingly and intentionally:
(a) transport a firearm into:
(i) a house of worship; or
(ii) a private residence; or
(b) while in possession of a firearm, enter or remain in:
(i) a house of worship; or
(ii) a private residence.
(2) Notice that firearms are prohibited may be given by:
(a) personal communication to the actor by:
(i) the church or organization operating the house of worship;
(ii) the owner, lessee, or person with lawful right of possession of the private residence; or
(iii) a person with authority to act for the person or entity in Subsections (2)(a)(i) and (ii);
(b) posting of signs reasonably likely to come to the attention of persons entering the house of worship or private residence;
(c) announcement, by a person with authority to act for the church or organization operating the house of worship, in a regular congregational meeting in the house of worship;
(d) publication in a bulletin, newsletter, worship program, or similar document generally circulated or available to the members of the congregation regularly meeting in the house of worship; or
(e) publication:
(i) in a newspaper of general circulation in the county in which the house of worship is located or the church or organization operating the house of worship has its principal office in this state; and
(ii) as required in Section 45-1-101.
(3) A church or organization operating a house of worship and giving notice that firearms are prohibited may:
(a) revoke the notice, with or without supersedure, by giving further notice in any manner provided in Subsection (2); and
(b) provide or allow exceptions to the prohibition as the church or organization considers advisable.
(4) (a) (i) Within 30 days of giving or revoking any notice pursuant to Subsection (2)(c), (d), or (e), a church or organization operating a house of worship shall notify the division on a form and in a manner as the division shall prescribe.
(ii) The division shall post on its website a list of the churches and organizations operating houses of worship who have given notice under Subsection (4)(a)(i).
(b) Any notice given pursuant to Subsection (2)(c), (d), or (e) shall remain in effect until revoked or for a period of one year from the date the notice was originally given, whichever occurs first.
(5) Nothing in this section permits an owner who has granted the lawful right of possession to a renter or lessee to restrict the renter or lessee from lawfully possessing a firearm

in the residence.
(6) A violation of this section is an infraction.

 

[Dalph07]

I would like to carry everywhere but due to our State law's the churches and banks are not some of the places I carry unless I forget I'm carring!

 

[Bozz]

As stated... check your states laws and see if it is illegal or just against their policy. N Florida those signs mean NOTHING if it isn't prohibited by law.

IMHO a bank is probably one of the most important places to carry as you are most likely to defend your life (I could care less about the bank money as its FDIC insured)

 

[BIGJOHN621]

I'd really like to know how bad you have to print to be noticed by a bank teller to the point of a teller hitting an alarm?? Do you just not care? I carried a full sized Smith for about 20 years IWB and was never "outed". This was mostly in an old leather Desantis IWB holster with a large double snap around the belt.

With today's hybrid and crossbreed holsters that are ultimately adjustable, are you just lazy or do you just not care? Concealed means concealed. (no comments on OC here intended). Have some self respect and conceal the gun properly and you won't have half of the issues here. It also helps in an "oops" moment where you accidentally wind up where you might not belong with a gun.

 

[Steven Harder]

I'd really like to know how bad you have to print to be noticed by a bank teller to the point of a teller hitting an alarm?? Do you just not care? I carried a full sized Smith for about 20 years IWB and was never "outed". This was mostly in an old leather Desantis IWB holster with a large double snap around the belt.

With today's hybrid and crossbreed holsters that are ultimately adjustable, are you just lazy or do you just not care? Concealed means concealed. (no comments on OC here intended). Have some self respect and conceal the gun properly and you won't have half of the issues here. It also helps in an "oops" moment where you accidentally wind up where you might not belong with a gun.

OH BOY . . . Do I totally agree with you! You'll never know or guess I'm carrying concealed . . . until it's too late. I've never been pegged as carrying for a reason . . . that's between me and my maker. My boss, immediate family, co-workers (2), and a couple friends, know I tend to carry or have seen me put it on in my home or at work . . . but that's it. I'm sure there's others that know me and my background, that suspect . . . but they don't know for sure.

 

[Couzin]

If they told me that i couldn't carry my concealed firearm on the church grounds they would not see me back there again, i would find another church to go to!!

Absolutely! I respect legal signs, places noted in the law that are off limits, and verbal warnings - but I will not use your business or attend any function. I just move on to places that don't have the 'gun-free zone' mindset.

 

[Stan45]

General rule of thumb on churches, it's considered a sanctuary and guns don't belong. .

This "General Rule" I have never heard of before. No guns in a sanctuary!

"Rule of thumb" as a phrase predates all such known references, in any case. The "rule of thumb" was used for measurements in many different fields, from brewing to money-changing to art.

And pray tell why would guns not belong????
What about the New Life Church in Colorado Springs where four were injured 2 were killed before he was killed by security.
Should people have let him continue killed because someone thought there was a rule?
Maybe you should rethink this.

 

[Bikenut]

Because I open carry everywhere it is legal to do so here in Michigan, including in my bank, tellers... loan officers.. the manager.. and other patrons from all walks of life... have absolutely no doubt I'm carrying since, as is legal in Michigan with a CPL, I also open carry when I do my banking. No one hits any alarm buttons.. no one shuns me... the manager generally says "Hi" if passing by... tellers don't even hesitate to continue to conduct transactions with patrons.... money continues to be disbursed and/or deposited... no one panics, no one runs out screaming, the cops never come because no one calls the cops, and actually.... no one much shives a git.

Although OC has been legal in the State of Michigan since Michigan became a state in 1837 the general public has not been aware of that fact. It hasn't been until the past 5 or 6 years when a small group of people decided to start an OC "movement" that their daily OC efforts made OC fairly commonplace. 10 years ago openly carrying a gun into a bank would have gotten a much different response than the nonresponse it does today. That nonresponse has come about simply because people dared to legally bear arms openly. And although at first the media coverage was all about the sensationalism of ordinary people carrying guns in plain sight... as time went on even the media had to acknowledge the legality of it... and through the media the general public learned that OC is legal in Michigan.

So.... I'm not knocking the folks who do not wish to OC. To each his/her own. But, at least in Michigan, it is now unlikely for there to be a negative reaction from people, patrons or staff, seeing an ordinary person with a gun in a bank.

 

[Stan45]

Because I open carry everywhere it is legal to do so here in Michigan, including in my bank, tellers... loan officers.. the manager.. and other patrons from all walks of life... have absolutely no doubt I'm carrying since, as is legal in Michigan with a CPL, I also open carry when I do my banking. No one hits any alarm buttons.. no one shuns me... the manager generally says "Hi" if passing by... tellers don't even hesitate to continue to conduct transactions with patrons.... money continues to be disbursed and/or deposited... no one panics, no one runs out screaming, the cops never come because no one calls the cops, and actually.... no one much shives a git.

When you OC with the proper attitude that is how people respond.