Attitude of Some Police re: Open Carry

[Felix]

In my case, where it actually happened to me (threatened with citation), the officer was bluffing when I called it.

Well, if you had been charged while standing up for your 2A/4A 'rights,' that would certainly have presented your security officer and the first Captain (O-6) in your chain-of-command with an interesting decision regarding any clearances you have while they waited for things to play out.

Actually, in my service, it wouldn't have been much of a decision...access would have been pulled immediately and the officer assigned to unclass admin duties until a review took place. Unfortunately, even if totally exonerated, those sorts of perturbations have a way of being remembered come performance review time. I don't like it but it happens as voluntary retention remains at an all-time high and there's usually someone equally well qualified for the top promotion recommendations who hasn't managed to get himself/herself arrested or otherwise noticed in a negative light. Probably works differently in the Navy though. Then again maybe not, Captain Honors didn't fare too well.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Well, if you had been charged while standing up for your 2A/4A 'rights,' that would certainly have presented your security officer and the first Captain (O-6) in your chain-of-command with an interesting decision regarding any clearances you have while they waited for things to play out.

Actually, in my service, it wouldn't have been much of a decision...access would have been pulled immediately and the officer assigned to unclass admin duties until a review took place. Unfortunately, even if totally exonerated, those sorts of perturbations have a way of being remembered come performance review time. I don't like it but it happens as voluntary retention remains at an all-time high and there's usually someone equally well qualified for the top promotion recommendations who hasn't managed to get himself/herself arrested or otherwise noticed in a negative light. Probably works differently in the Navy though. Then again maybe not, Captain Honors didn't fare too well.

In the Navy we don't "hang" people for problems out in town unless one of two conditions exist -

1. They are actually convicted of something.
2. There exists evidence that they committed some crime.

Let's say a guy gets a DUI out in town. We won't do anything in the Navy unless we have a BAC measurement that shows he was DUI. Then we'll take him to CO Mast based on the BAC, before the case is adjudicated out in town. Or, if he is found guilty out in town based on a field sobriety test, then we will deal with it in the Navy as well.

I guess we are lucky that we, as a military service, don't bow down and worship police officers out in town like it sounds like your service/command did.

And it's funny, no actually make that sad, how you say your service/command would punish a person for upholding their oath to support and defend the constitution.

 

[Oldgrunt]

This is just my opinion but it is people who think like you do that has caused people like LT and me to have to put up with LEO's who try to do illegal things thinking that they are allowed due to everyone else bending over and giving up their legal rights to avoid being arrested. When you allow LEO's to walk over your legal rights you are reinforcing their bad and illegal behavior.

This is why our rights are where they are at now. During the old west no permit was needed to go from Mississippi to California with your six gun and rifle . But some How it is now seen as a safety hazard if a US citizen did what was done back then without a problem or permit/license.

Kasper: Please, you give me too much credit for causing you and everyone else problems. This has gotten to the point of being ridiculous. If you have problems, it is because you caused them, not me. I try to conduct myself in a civilized manner in all my undertakings. If showing your ID to a LEO is offensive to you, don't do it. Don't blame me for your problems. I choose to do things my way as does everyone else. If your way backfires on you, suck it up, that was your choice. I don't have to agree with you and you don't have to agree with me. Still, I do enjoy reading your comments so please don't stop. Every once in a while I even agree with you.:laugh:

 

[Kasper]

Kasper: Please, you give me too much credit for causing you and everyone else problems. This has gotten to the point of being ridiculous. If you have problems, it is because you caused them, not me. I try to conduct myself in a civilized manner in all my undertakings. If showing your ID to a LEO is offensive to you, don't do it. Don't blame me for your problems. I choose to do things my way as does everyone else. If your way backfires on you, suck it up, that was your choice. I don't have to agree with you and you don't have to agree with me. Still, I do enjoy reading your comments so please don't stop. Every once in a while I even agree with you.:laugh:

Sorry but take the credit you deserve. By you letting them walk over your rights they become empowered to believe that the can walk over other peoples rights the way they walked over yours.

I had this happen today when going to jury duty. They wanted me to take off my watch and ring I asked them why and got told because we told you to. I told them no I will not do that and to get their manager over here. They called the sheriff over and he tells me I have 2 options do what they say or leave. I replied I have as much right to be here as they due for it is my tax dollars paying for their services and you services here. That when he said I will charge you with obstruction if you keep this up. Thats when I replied give me back my belongs and I will leave. I walk around to the other entrance and seen the sheriff standing looking out the window to see if I was coming in that way. By this time I had gotten the name of the head of security who was a sheriff and I asked for him when I got to the door. Their attitude had changed at the front door due to the news crews being there. They let me in and had them do a through security screening of me and my belongings. Every time the security guard would ask if it was ok to pat me down where the metal detector went off at after giving him the ok he would pat me down. The lady sheriff said that it was due to my behavior at the other door I was screened longer then anyone else and that if I had just went along with their orders it would not take as long. I told her no I will not allow you or the security guards to walk over my rights given to me by the US constitution. She then replied you should hurry cause you are already late for jury duty.

So what I got from that is they like people like you who will give up their legal rights when asked to by them. And look at me and others as a problem starter for knowing our rights and not giving them up.

So just remember when you give up your rights they then think that everyone they ask will do the same.

If the news crews where not there I probably would have ended up in a jail cell for obstruction, which is the most bogus charge they can legally charge you with.

 

[Oldgrunt]

Kasper: Probably had to do with their metal detector but I agree their attitude was out of line. Anyway, thanks for the accolades:biggrin:

 

[Kasper]

Kasper: Probably had to do with their metal detector but I agree their attitude was out of line. Anyway, thanks for the accolades:biggrin:

No it was not my watch it is made from ceramics that is used on space craft it has not set off any metal detectors that I have had to go through. I bought it due to I could keep time without worrying about being shocked or electrocuted while working since it will not conduct electricity.

But I do agree that you are not fully to blame for the problems and your way of dealing with it is the most easiest but does not help to solve the problem.

 

[Unfettered Might]

It's got nothing to do with masculinity. It's called the 4th amendment. I took an oath to support and defend the Constitution of the US against ALL enemies, foreign AND DOMESTIC.

Some people just take that oath to greater length than others.

In your case, you will have to prove that you were coerced into involuntarily showing your ID when not required to do so by law. You will say in court, the officer threatened to arrest me. The officer will say, no, I merely asked him to cooperate by showing me ID and he did so voluntarily.

In my case, the officer will have to prove justification for an arrest.

Which case do you think will be easier to win in court?

Besides, you will never if the officer was bluffing unless you call his bluff. In my case, where it actually happened to me (threatened with citation), the officer was bluffing when I called it.

Man, I really have to hang out in the OC forum more often, this is a good one.

As usual LT, at least on my end, we are in complete agreement on ideology. I have not served in the armed forces to affirm my oath, but I personally feel I took an oath to the Constitution simply by being born here and enjoying the liberties our forefathers gave me.

As for the original subject of this thread, I've personally stood up to my fair share of LE, once even telling a LEO to get his damn hand out of my pocket when he tried to search me for OC. He tried to bluff me and it didn't work.

I am not afraid to go to jail to stand up for my constitutional rights and neither should anyone else be. PEOPLE DIED standing up for our rights and I'm supposed to be afraid of a concrete cell that I probably won't be in for even 24 hours? There's nothing to be afraid of, they can't eat me.

Maybe things are a bit different around my neck of the woods, maybe LE isn't so gung ho as other parts of the country as most LE i've encountered didn't even care. But maybe that's because there are more people like me here than some other states, so we've never let ours get out of line.

There's even a phrase coined here, we call it the "Kentucky Lottery". There have been a few ignorant LEOs in Louisville that made the mistake of arresting someone for OC. They learned the gravity of their mistake and so did the city coffers.

Stand up for your rights people! Use 'em or lose 'em.

 

[wooddoctor]

HI
Everyone in this country has a 2nd Amendment right to bear arms. When it is a right it should not be questioned. A holstered gun is not a threat. A holstered gun should not be questioned.

Every policing area of this country should have a citizen review board. The review board should be made up of 4 citizens and 3 police officers. A review board should review each and every case that comes in question of being legal. After this review board starts to act on these cases they will stop.

Until we have citizen review boards the problems will continue.

WHAT HAPPENED TO THE CONSTITUTION !

What if the 4 citizens are a bunch of bed wetting, communist, socialist democrates? And the officers will be planning to run for higher position.

 

[Nightmare45]

A friendly, smile works two ways.

 

[santa]

Is he elected or appointed? Either way it sounds like a bad apple that needs removed.

First the town I live in is about an hour to an hour and a half outside Spokane. I will not say which town because of safety concerns I have. You must realize that some towns are run by the 'good ole boys' and they cover each others backside extreamely well. The chief here is appointed and has kept his job for many years. Yes he is a bad apple but as I said the 'good ole boys' protect each other. Some of us have questioned some of the shenanigins by him and others both in and out of local government and have found ourselves harrassed or threatened or bullied by the chief. The local media outlet refuses to help. Getting anyone willing to stand up is difficult because of fear. I have heard that some have stood up for their rights in court and won but the local media refuses to comment. Second the US codes may be very helpful and thanks for the info as Ill bring this to my lawyers attention when I find the right lawyer. Third Im sorry this post has gotten off the subject of open carry. Yet it does concern open carry and concealed carry as this chief has told me to my face he doesnt think anybody needs to carry a gun. and has harrassed some who do. He has refered to people who like guns as nuts in a derogatory manner. I have a CPL and carry concealed but I also support open carry even though I rarely open carry. By the way I want to move.

 

[mappow]

First the town I live in is about an hour to an hour and a half outside Spokane. I will not say which town because of safety concerns I have. You must realize that some towns are run by the 'good ole boys' and they cover each others backside extreamely well. The chief here is appointed and has kept his job for many years. Yes he is a bad apple but as I said the 'good ole boys' protect each other. Some of us have questioned some of the shenanigins by him and others both in and out of local government and have found ourselves harrassed or threatened or bullied by the chief. The local media outlet refuses to help. Getting anyone willing to stand up is difficult because of fear. I have heard that some have stood up for their rights in court and won but the local media refuses to comment. Second the US codes may be very helpful and thanks for the info as Ill bring this to my lawyers attention when I find the right lawyer. Third Im sorry this post has gotten off the subject of open carry. Yet it does concern open carry and concealed carry as this chief has told me to my face he doesnt think anybody needs to carry a gun. and has harrassed some who do. He has refered to people who like guns as nuts in a derogatory manner. I have a CPL and carry concealed but I also support open carry even though I rarely open carry. By the way I want to move.

Dam this post sounds more like an episode of "In the Heat of the Night" then free wheeling, anything goes Washington State. (NO malice or harm implied) I thought this crap only happen in the Old South.
I would refer you to the US Attorney Generals Office for your State. He, his office will advise you any possible redress and or investigation that may/could be initiated. Just moving away from the problem does not do anyone any good. Especially those that still live in that jurisdiction. JUST my input, good luck and God Bless.

 

[Deanimator]

I'm not sure why anyone would have issue with presenting ID to a LEO that asked.

If it's not REQUIRED by law, he can ASK. I have no duty to comply.

In fact, in Ohio, if I'm not carrying concealed or in a vehicle, not only don't I need to show ID, I don't even need to HAVE ID.

Know the law.
Obey the law.

You don't have to like the law, merely obey it.

That goes for EVERYBODY, citizen AND LEO.

 

[Deanimator]

NavyLT: Your basic premise is valid but the greatest problem in an open-carry situation is that the LEOs usually do not, in most cases, know the law

Unacceptable.

Get caught carrying in a liquor serving establishment in Ohio and try to use that excuse. You can repeat it to your cell mates in state prison.

I am expected to ABSOLUTELY know AND obey the law. If I fail to do so, NO cop or court is going to care one iota whether I knew the law or not.

The idea that a "trained" LEO has a LESSER duty to know and obey the law than a 9th grade dropout citizen with NO legal training is legally, logically and morally despicable.

 

[Deanimator]

I will stop short of being arrested or taking a bite out of a nightstick.

You seem to be saying that you believe that if you fail to CONSENT to an UNLAWFUL command by an LEO that you are afraid that you will be the victim of a felonious assault by that LEO.

If that's the case, you have FAR more serious issues than mere demands for identification or open carry issues.

If you consider that a credible possibility regarding the police where you live, you need to be doing something about the POLICE, and YESTERDAY.

 

[Unfettered Might]

Good points Deanimator.

I had a run in with a LEO who tried to violate my 4A through intimidation...it didn't work. Then he tried to have my landlord kick me out (small town), that didn't work either.

What did work was reporting his butt to his CO for his conduct unbecoming of a officer.

I haven't so much as seen a police car even roll down my street since.

 

[Deanimator]

Good points Deanimator.

I had a run in with a LEO who tried to violate my 4A through intimidation...it didn't work. Then he tried to have my landlord kick me out (small town), that didn't work either.

What did work was reporting his butt to his CO for his conduct unbecoming of a officer.

I haven't so much as seen a police car even roll down my street since.

This is why it's SO important to record police encounters where it's lawful to do so.

 

[Unfettered Might]

This is why it's SO important to record police encounters where it's lawful to do so.

Fortunately my state is a one party consent state and I had my cell phone recording in my shirt pocket unbeknown to the LEO. My landlord didn't want to come forward on what he said to him, but the audio recording of that night was enough for the CO.

I've been looking into an audio/video setup for my car with a DVR. Not that bad if you know how to set up a system from components and not have to buy a turn key system.

What would be awesome if there was such a thing as a camera that has secure access, that's small enough to wear on a cord around my neck and that I could turn off with a voice command....I can dream. I had time to prepare for that encounter, but I worry about the random encounter on the street. I did find a wrist watch that secretly records audio and can only be accessed by a PC. A bit pricey at 250.00, but when you consider how much it could cost you if say something was planted on you, pretty cheap actually.

 

[ccwaz]

Treatment of LEOs

Assume for just one minute that somebody who is about your same height and weight just robbed a store half a block away. The cop heard about it on his radio. You didn't. He sees you with a gun on your hip. He asks for your ID.

Treat the cop with respect. Assume he is doing his job, which includes putting his life on the line for you and a lot of ungrateful people who are afraid of him because he carries a gun - which is the normal attitude of sheep toward the sheepdog. If you have not broken any laws, you have nothing to fear. Show your ID. While you're at it, thank the cop for his service.

If a real bad guy came in right then and started shooting up the Starbucks, guess who would be the first one to step in front of a bullet for you. Cut the cop some slack.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Assume for just one minute that somebody who is about your same height and weight just robbed a store half a block away. The cop heard about it on his radio. You didn't. He sees you with a gun on your hip. He asks for your ID.

Treat the cop with respect. Assume he is doing his job, which includes putting his life on the line for you and a lot of ungrateful people who are afraid of him because he carries a gun - which is the normal attitude of sheep toward the sheepdog. If you have not broken any laws, you have nothing to fear. Show your ID. While you're at it, thank the cop for his service.

If a real bad guy came in right then and started shooting up the Starbucks, guess who would be the first one to step in front of a bullet for you. Cut the cop some slack.

The simple solution is to ask, "Am I being detained?" If the cop is investigating a robbery or any other crime, the answer will be, "Yes." Then you cooperate with the officer after you have ascertained that you are being detained, and if you desire to take the matter to court, the officer will have to prove his lawful basis for detaining you.

If the officer is not investigating a crime, and he answers, "No", then excuse yourself and either ask the officer to leave you alone or walk away.

It's as simple as that. "Am I being detained?" "Yes." The whole interaction would take less time that it took me to type it, which was 3 seconds. That is not making the officer's job any more difficult. It's simply establishing the ground rules of the game right up front.

 

[Kasper]

Assume for just one minute that somebody who is about your same height and weight just robbed a store half a block away. The cop heard about it on his radio. You didn't. He sees you with a gun on your hip. He asks for your ID.

Treat the cop with respect. Assume he is doing his job, which includes putting his life on the line for you and a lot of ungrateful people who are afraid of him because he carries a gun - which is the normal attitude of sheep toward the sheepdog. If you have not broken any laws, you have nothing to fear. Show your ID. While you're at it, thank the cop for his service.

If a real bad guy came in right then and started shooting up the Starbucks, guess who would be the first one to step in front of a bullet for you. Cut the cop some slack.

I will call BS on your statement I placed a 911 call to the police 15 minutes before a gun shot was fired it took the police 45 minutes after the first gun shot to arrive at the Kent Denny's. When they did get there wearing bullet proof vest and carrying AR15 they began by harassing the innocent citizens that were in the restaurant. So tell that lie to someone else who is dumb enough to believe it.

The case stems from a Jan. 21, 2007, early-morning incident at the Denny's, located at 1246 N. Central Ave., where all three of Perey's clients had been dining, before a fight at the restaurant erupted in gunfire.

Meanwhile, Evans came in with another group of people, rowdy after drinking at another restaurant, and having been thrown out by security there. Now at Denny’s, Evans picked a fight with a customer, who beat him up. Evans left the restaurant, then minutes later returned with a Glock .40 semiautomatic handgun, which he used to spray the inside of the restaurant with 11 bullets. He fled, and customers and staff frantically called 911.

Being that I was in the group that he tried harassing. I call 911 as soon as he got done throwing a plate of food on the floor and saying "what you doing sitting at my table?" In my mind no one is that stupid on their own so I picked up my phone and called 911. I had to hand the phone to the waitress for her to give them the address. 10 minutes later the guy walks back in and opens fire hitting 4 people. It took the police department 45 minutes after the last shot to arrive there and when they did one of their not so finest decided that if the person is black that they have to be the one who did the shooting and started to harass my friend who just got back from Iraq without being shot to get shot in the ass while eating in his own country then thrown against the wall by the rude police officer.

So while I know not all police act this way enough of them do to make people not trust them. And I don't blame them for taking the time to get suited up before arriving, As I know I would have if I was them. The problem is the attitude that one police office showed threw an overcast on the other police officers who had done nothing wrong and were being helpful to the citizens in need of help.

And as I was taught treat people the way you want to be treated, and respect is a two way street.

For some reason most of the police have not been taught those lessens and decide to treat people as criminals who don't deserve any respect but need to show them respect.

So if I match the description given over his radio. When he decides to approach me and ask for my ID why not tell me the reason he needs to see my ID. I would be more then willing to show him my ID if he tells me the reason he needs to see it. But just to say because I am the law and I said so does not work for me.