Any advice

[ken grant]

With UPS I know the driver that serves me the most. Well enough to honk horns and wave to each other.
With Fed-X The few times they have delivered I never seem to get the same driver twice in a row.

 

[Rhino]

The crime is someone forged my name to receive a package that was not meant for them

That's not a crime, even if they forge your signature. Parcel services like FedEx are not covered under the same laws that govern US mail.

When a firearm is lost (stolen) in shipment ,local LE does get involved as well as BATFE.

Law enforcement doesn't investigate lost packages. And someone other than you signing for your package isn't evidence that a theft took place. People sign for the wrong packages all the time. Most of such instances probably happen because the delivery doesn't give you the package until after you've signed for it. It's quite common for people to sign for the wrong package without realizing they've done so until after the delivery transaction. To my knowledge nobody tracks statistics on it but experienced delivery folks will tell you it happens all the time. If you actually got LE to do something about when they don't have to, then congratulations. But that isn't the norm by any stretch of the imagination.

It is not the fact they lost a package . It is the fact you can get very little info from Fed-X about it. Even the shipper admits this. Fed-X C.S. shows no more concern about this being a firearm as they would if it was just a book missing.

That might be because it happens so often. People tend to get complacent about stuff they see regularly.

 

[Rhino]

Someone signed for the package, i.e., certified that he/she is the legal recipient of it. Since the person was not the legal recipient of the package, this person committed theft. Since the package contained a firearm, this person committed felony theft. The driver may have committed a crime as well, depending on the circumstances.

Sorry, but that isn't correct. It's a violation to deliberately sign for someone else's US Mail package, but not for carriers like FedEx or UPS. And even with the US Mail you still have to have evidence of deliberate intent, which Ken doesn't have.

 

[Rhino]

With UPS I know the driver that serves me the most. Well enough to honk horns and wave to each other.
With Fed-X The few times they have delivered I never seem to get the same driver twice in a row.

They usually remember my dogs because they're always SOOOOO happy to see visitors. We live in the country so they don't see other people very often. One of the regular FedEx drivers brings biscuits with him when he leaves the truck because he knows he's going to get an enthusiastic greeting. Labradors are great.

 

[ken grant]

So my firearm is lost ,stolen or missing. Some one signed for it using my name . No telling whose hands it is in now.
Some one has an illegal stolen weapon that is supposed to be mine .
The Mfg. filed a missing interstate shipped weapon to the BATFE and the form is for thief/missing firearms .
Local L.E. is checking out the missing/stolenfirearm.

And Rhino is saying no laws were broken ?

 

[Reba]

That's not a crime, even if they forge your signature. Parcel services like FedEx are not covered under the same laws that govern US mail.

Not the same Federal laws perhaps but it's still theft if someone intentionally signs another person's name in order to wrongfully acquire another's possession.

Law enforcement doesn't investigate lost packages. And someone other than you signing for your package isn't evidence that a theft took place. People sign for the wrong packages all the time. Most of such instances probably happen because the delivery doesn't give you the package until after you've signed for it. It's quite common for people to sign for the wrong package without realizing they've done so until after the delivery transaction. To my knowledge nobody tracks statistics on it but experienced delivery folks will tell you it happens all the time. If you actually got LE to do something about when they don't have to, then congratulations. But that isn't the norm by any stretch of the imagination.

His package wasn't lost; it was stolen. Person "A" signing the name of Person "B" in order to gain possession of Person "B"'s property without Person "B"'s permission isn't a lawful transaction.

 

[Reba]

So my firearm is lost ,stolen or missing. Some one signed for it using my name . No telling whose hands it is in now.
Some one has an illegal stolen weapon that is supposed to be mine .
The Mfg. filed a missing interstate shipped weapon to the BATFE and the form is for thief/missing firearms .
Local L.E. is checking out the missing/stolenfirearm.

And Rhino is saying no laws were broken ?

I'm glad to see that you're finally getting some action. I hope they find your weapon and it's OK.

 

[bofh]

Sorry, but that isn't correct. It's a violation to deliberately sign for someone else's US Mail package, but not for carriers like FedEx or UPS. And even with the US Mail you still have to have evidence of deliberate intent, which Ken doesn't have.

Sorry, but you are incorrect. This has absolutely nothing to do with laws concerning the USPS. When someone else impersonates you, forges your signature, and takes possession of a shipment from a contract carrier, it is plain fraud and theft. The intent is given by signing for a package that a person is not the recipient of and taking possession of it. The name and address is usually clearly visible on the package. The person taking possession of the package was never part of the contract that the shipper, the recipient and the contract carrier are engaged in. By not immediately returning the package to the shipper, the person engaged in fraud and theft. Since the shipment is a firearm, it is felony fraud and theft. Note that the person took illegal possession of a firearm.

 

[NavyLCDR]

What crime? So far all he has is a missing package. The police don't investigate missing packages, so Ken is the only person that's going to investigate.

You won't be purchasing much if you seriously attempt to impose that restriction. UPS doesn't ship firearms from ordinary folks except between "a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector; and (ii) from a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to an individual." That's why practically everyone uses FedEX.

Really? Because FEDEX has EXACTLY the SAME policy!

http://images.fedex.com/us/services/pdf/Service_Guide_2016.pdf

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Link Removed

 

[CustomSatellite]

Not to sh!t on anyone's parade but I receive guns all the time from any and all 3 mentioned carriers and I have yet to have one require the addressed name be the sole signature requirement. I'm not going to say it doesn't happen but I haven't seen it after receiving literally 100s of firearms. What it does say is adult signature required. Any adult can sign for the package and they do all the time. If this was a carrier requirement 1/2 the packages in the US would never get delivered. And for the record we occasionally get mistake packages and have even received mistake firearms. They were signed for. They were returned to the carrier unopened and no, I repeat, no crime was committed. This nonsense about a person signing your name has committed some form of criminal act is purely speculation. While it is possible someone knowingly received a package that didn't belong to them, it's equally possible that it was an honest mistake that will be corrected given sufficient time. If, and this is a big if at this point, the person receiving your firearm decides to make it his own and the carrier cannot locate it, you would do 2 things. The first thing would be to file a bona-fide stolen firearm report with your local police agency and the second would to be to file a claim against the insurance policy covering the package. Only at this point would that firearm generate potential criminal charges. Anyone in possession of a firearm reported stolen is committing a felony and could face prison time. Understand, the crime wasn't committed simply by receiving the package.

 

[ken grant]

Not to sh!t on anyone's parade but I receive guns all the time from any and all 3 mentioned carriers and I have yet to have one require the addressed name be the sole signature requirement. I'm not going to say it doesn't happen but I haven't seen it after receiving literally 100s of firearms. What it does say is adult signature required. Any adult can sign for the package and they do all the time. If this was a carrier requirement 1/2 the packages in the US would never get delivered. And for the record we occasionally get mistake packages and have even received mistake firearms. They were signed for. They were returned to the carrier unopened and no, I repeat, no crime was committed. This nonsense about a person signing your name has committed some form of criminal act is purely speculation. While it is possible someone knowingly received a package that didn't belong to them, it's equally possible that it was an honest mistake that will be corrected given sufficient time. If, and this is a big if at this point, the person receiving your firearm decides to make it his own and the carrier cannot locate it, you would do 2 things. The first thing would be to file a bona-fide stolen firearm report with your local police agency and the second would to be to file a claim against the insurance policy covering the package. Only at this point would that firearm generate potential criminal charges. Anyone in possession of a firearm reported stolen is committing a felony and could face prison time. Understand, the crime wasn't committed simply by receiving the package.

Already did both . The person with it has had 6 days to correct the problem.

 

[Reba]

Not to sh!t on anyone's parade but I receive guns all the time from any and all 3 mentioned carriers and I have yet to have one require the addressed name be the sole signature requirement. I'm not going to say it doesn't happen but I haven't seen it after receiving literally 100s of firearms. What it does say is adult signature required. Any adult can sign for the package and they do all the time. If this was a carrier requirement 1/2 the packages in the US would never get delivered.

There's a difference between using one's own name and signing for someone else who has delegated that authority, and forging someone else's name without their permission.

And for the record we occasionally get mistake packages and have even received mistake firearms. They were signed for. They were returned to the carrier unopened and no, I repeat, no crime was committed....

In this case, the package was neither returned to the sender nor forwarded on to the owner.

 

[CustomSatellite]

There's a difference between using one's own name and signing for someone else who has delegated that authority, and forging someone else's name without their permission.



In this case, the package was neither returned to the sender nor forwarded on to the owner.

Never is a long time hun and no evidence has been presented suggesting that it went the way you are presenting it. I'm not saying you are wrong. I'm saying there is no clear and convincing evidence that you are right. To be charged and convicted of a crime, you must prove that a.) a crime actually took place and b.) there is probable cause to believe a specific someone committed or was involved in committing said crime. That's why after the "we made reasonable efforts to retrieve this mistaken package" are exhausted, the proper investigative steps may begin. Anyone that would knowingly keep, hide, give away, or otherwise impede a firearm from going to the rightful owner isn't going to have a good day when evidence does show they intended to do so. Every firearm manufactured after 1968 has a unique serial number (some had them before this) and are easily traceable following a stolen report when they show up somewhere they shouldn't be. Additionally, if said person alters, defaces, or removes the serial number regardless of age, in an attempt to hide their or someone elses crime, that is a crime in of itself but we are talking semantics here because we still don't know if it was a simple mistake.

Cheers

 

[BluesStringer]

ken grant, have you seen a copy (either digital or paper) of the signature that Fed-Ex says was your name? Seems to me that's the linchpin concerning whether or not a crime was committed. If someone forged your name (and you know that to be true and not just an assertion by a Fed-Ex employee over the phone) at the wrong address, that would seem to be prima facie evidence of fraud, and would likely implicate the driver too. But if it went like CustomSatellite suggests may have happened, and the driver knocks on the wrong door, the occupant just signs *their own name* for a package they knew nothing about except that a driver says hey, I got a delivery for you, then there's no crime, just an honest (at least presumably) mistake. It should not however, take more than a handful of hours to confirm one way or the other whether or not a crime was committed. The signature is the key. Have you seen it with your own eyes ken grant?

Blues

 

[ken grant]

It could barely be made out but it shows it was signed K Grant.
All deliveries I sign for are with my full name.

 

[BluesStringer]

It could barely be made out but it shows it was signed K Grant.
All deliveries I sign for are with my full name.

Well, that sounds like a crime to me, unless of course, the person at the wrong address has your same first name initial and the same last name. A stretch, I know, but Grant is not all that uncommon of a name. Still, I highly doubt that would happen by mere coincidence. Still sounds like a forgery and a theft to me.

On the other side of that coin though, I do agree with Rhino that misdelivered packages is a common occurrence with all the shipping companies, which might explain, though still not excuse, Fed-Ex's laissez-faire attitude when you spoke with 'em on the phone.

 

[CustomSatellite]

It could barely be made out but it shows it was signed K Grant.
All deliveries I sign for are with my full name.

That certainly sounds like probable cause to knock on this asshats door and ask for some clarification and a uniform with a detective or 2 certainly wouldn't hurt.

 

[Reba]

Never is a long time hun and no evidence has been presented suggesting that it went the way you are presenting it. I'm not saying you are wrong. I'm saying there is no clear and convincing evidence that you are right. To be charged and convicted of a crime, you must prove that a.) a crime actually took place and b.) there is probable cause to believe a specific someone committed or was involved in committing said crime. That's why after the "we made reasonable efforts to retrieve this mistaken package" are exhausted, the proper investigative steps may begin. Anyone that would knowingly keep, hide, give away, or otherwise impede a firearm from going to the rightful owner isn't going to have a good day when evidence does show they intended to do so. Every firearm manufactured after 1968 has a unique serial number (some had them before this) and are easily traceable following a stolen report when they show up somewhere they shouldn't be. Additionally, if said person alters, defaces, or removes the serial number regardless of age, in an attempt to hide their or someone elses crime, that is a crime in of itself but we are talking semantics here because we still don't know if it was a simple mistake.

Cheers

I don't think the concern was with charging and convicting anyone. I think Ken's quest is to find and retrieve his property, and in order to get some help in his pursuit he had to make a police report.

 

[Rhino]

So my firearm is lost ,stolen or missing. Some one signed for it using my name . No telling whose hands it is in now.
Some one has an illegal stolen weapon that is supposed to be mine .
The Mfg. filed a missing interstate shipped weapon to the BATFE and the form is for thief/missing firearms .
Local L.E. is checking out the missing/stolenfirearm.

Yes, an ATF Form 3310.6. I'm familiar with it. Or at least I used to be. That's the standard form to use for a missing firearm. Use of that form doesn't mean it was stolen.

And Rhino is saying no laws were broken ?

No, I didn't say that. I said law enforcement doesn't investigate lost packages, and they typically won't get involved unless there's evidence of a crime. You don't have that. You have a missing firearm.

Not the same Federal laws perhaps but it's still theft if someone intentionally signs another person's name in order to wrongfully acquire another's possession.

I mentioned deliberate intent, but there's no evidence of "someone intentionally signs another person's name in order to wrongfully acquire another's possession." The simple fact that someone else signed for a package doesn't indicate deliberate intent to steal. You'd turn millions of law abiding people into instant criminals if that were the case. I've signed for my neighbors packages and they've done the same for me. And like I said before, you often don't get a chance to examine the package before it's signed for, so you may not know it's addressed to someone else. That's happened to me too.

His package wasn't lost; it was stolen. Person "A" signing the name of Person "B" in order to gain possession of Person "B"'s property without Person "B"'s permission isn't a lawful transaction.

It isn't a transaction at all. And you'd still need evidence of deliberate intent that Ken doesn't have. You're just assuming deliberate intent to steal was involved, but there's nothing to support that, at least not yet. If I were a betting person I'd likely bet on the same scenario. But that's still just an assumption. It isn't evidence of a crime, and most law enforcement isn't going to get involved unless there's evidence of one. A missing package isn't a crime.

In this particular instance I'd be focusing much more on insurance. Packages like this are almost always insured against loss. Personally, I wouldn't want to be involved in any way with a company that deals with firearms if they don't insure their packages. If someone has indeed decided to keep Kens gun, it's likely they didn't know what it was when they signed for it. People don't ship packages that advertise there's a gun inside, unless they're complete idiots. I wouldn't want to have anything to do with that company either. Besides, FedEx doesn't allow markings on packages that indicate there's a firearm inside, as required by 18 U. S. C. 922( a)( 2)( A) and 922( e), 27 CFR 178.31, which pretty much proves a person didn't sign for it with the deliberate intent of stealing a firearm because they couldn't have known a firearm was inside.

Sorry, but you are incorrect. This has absolutely nothing to do with laws concerning the USPS.

I said the law about signatures that governs USPS doesn't apply to FedEX, so yes, this has absolutely nothing to do with laws concerning the USPS. Thanks for agreeing with me.

When someone else impersonates you, forges your signature, and takes possession of a shipment from a contract carrier, it is plain fraud and theft.

You're agreeing with me again. As I said, if it were done deliberately for that purpose, that is indeed theft. And it would be great if Ken had evidence of that actually happening here, but again, he doesn't.

The intent is given by signing for a package that a person is not the recipient of and taking possession of it. The name and address is usually clearly visible on the package.

And if they actually got a look at it before signing is completely unknown.

The person taking possession of the package was never part of the contract that the shipper, the recipient and the contract carrier are engaged in.

A given.

By not immediately returning the package to the shipper, the person engaged in fraud and theft.

Now you've hit upon something that may work in Ken's favor. That might be interesting to investigate the details if we knew where Ken lives, but his location isn't in his profile. Theft By Receiving statutes also require deliberate intent, but there's a difference that likely works in favor of it in Ken's case. While simply signing for else's package doesn't prove deliberate intent, keeping it after the contents and addressee are known does, or at least indicates it very heavily. I would assume though, that most law enforcement agencies aren't going to delve deeply into that until FedEx completes their lost package investigation.

Since the shipment is a firearm, it is felony fraud and theft. Note that the person took illegal possession of a firearm.

It's not illegal possession unless the person is in a prohibited class, and simply receiving the package doesn't prove intent. Your point about a felony could very well be true though. In many cases a theft by receiving case might very well be made into a felony if a firearm is involved. All of this also unfortunately depends on intent though, and I find it unlikely the receiver would ever admit to deliberate intent. You couldn't get a search warrant based on what little Ken knows so far, so it's pretty likely that anyone at that other address would just claim to have never seen or heard of the package. I'm sure the police feel the same way, which probably explains the lack of action so far.

I'm not sure why some of you are reacting vehemently to what I've said. Please don't try to cast me as a enemy. I haven't advocated inaction about Ken's loss, nor am I trying to be uncaring. I'm not saying Ken should just give up his effort to get his gun. I'm not being confrontational. I'm just relating the facts about the law involved. I would be extremely pleased to see this matter resolved, particularly with legal ramifications to the person who signed for the package or presumably kept it after knowing it wasn't theirs. There just isn't enough evidence for law enforcement to pursue the matter further. If they thought such evidence existed, the evidence being suggested here, they would have gone to the other house right away. The fact that they didn't should tell you something.

Really? Because FEDEX has EXACTLY the SAME policy!

http://images.fedex.com/us/services/pdf/Service_Guide_2016.pdf

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Yeah, that's the legal requirement. Just try shipping a firearm through UPS though, and, unlike FedEx, they likely won't do it. I have no idea why, but that's been my experience and the experience of many others. The UPS office in Dayton, OH specifically told me that I had to use FedEx, even though in that instance I was only shipping gun parts rather than a complete gun, and I was shipping to the gun manufacturer. This guy had the same experience. I asked two different FFLs here about that after UPS rejected my package, and they told me not to ever bother trying UPS because they wouldn't accept guns or gun parts. I completely agree with you that it doesn't make sense when they both have the same rules and published policy. If your experience with UPS has been positive, I congratulate you.

Not to sh!t on anyone's parade but I receive guns all the time from any and all 3 mentioned carriers and I have yet to have one require the addressed name be the sole signature requirement. I'm not going to say it doesn't happen but I haven't seen it after receiving literally 100s of firearms. What it does say is adult signature required. Any adult can sign for the package and they do all the time. If this was a carrier requirement 1/2 the packages in the US would never get delivered. And for the record we occasionally get mistake packages and have even received mistake firearms. They were signed for. They were returned to the carrier unopened and no, I repeat, no crime was committed...

...I'm not saying you are wrong. I'm saying there is no clear and convincing evidence that you are right. To be charged and convicted of a crime, you must prove that a.) a crime actually took place and b.) there is probable cause to believe a specific someone committed or was involved in committing said crime. That's why after the "we made reasonable efforts to retrieve this mistaken package" are exhausted, the proper investigative steps may begin....

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...On the other side of that coin though, I do agree with Rhino that misdelivered packages is a common occurrence with all the shipping companies, which might explain, though still not excuse, Fed-Ex's laissez-faire attitude when you spoke with 'em on the phone.

Link Removed

That certainly sounds like probable cause to knock on this asshats door and ask for some clarification and a uniform with a detective or 2 certainly wouldn't hurt.

It would be great if it were that simple, but unfortunately that's probably not the case. But for Ken, you have all my best hopes.

 

[Reba]

. . .

I mentioned deliberate intent, but there's no evidence of "someone intentionally signs another person's name in order to wrongfully acquire another's possession." The simple fact that someone else signed for a package doesn't indicate deliberate intent to steal. You'd turn millions of law abiding people into instant criminals if that were the case. I've signed for my neighbors packages and they've done the same for me. And like I said before, you often don't get a chance to examine the package before it's signed for, so you may not know it's addressed to someone else. That's happened to me too....

It could barely be made out but it shows it was signed K Grant.
All deliveries I sign for are with my full name.

It seems pretty far fetched that a total stranger would innocently sign the name of someone he didn't know for a package that wasn't in his name.

If the person didn't get to see the package address before signing, how would he know to sign it "K Grant?" Just pulled a name out of the air?