Do you still conceal carry into posted "No Carry" businesses?

[Bikenut]

Of course I "sneak" my gun in. That's the whole point of "concealed carry".

But Bikenut, I'm curious. Are you a business owner with on of those........"Hey robber extraordinaires, come on in and rob me, none of us is carrying in here because of the sign on my door which should make it pretty easy for you to be in and out" signs or are you just arguing basically a moot point with Blueshell?

I do not own a business and if I did I would welcome those who carry guns. I am pointing out that either we are for the rights of everyone or we are just as bad as anti gunners shouting "I want MY favorite rights and to hell with yours!"

So... are you for rights, all rights of all people, or are you for only those rights you happen to like?

 

[Bikenut]

I put a jacket on because it's literaly snowing outside as I type this, and you think that's "sneaking".

Anyway you're not even trying to "catch" anyone. You're just letting everyone in.

That means I have permission.

Putting on a jacket isn't sneaking but walking into a no guns business with your gun under your jacket so you don't get caught and thrown out is.... sneaking.

And people do get caught ... sneaking ... their guns in. If you are lucky you will continue to get away with it but just because you are carrying concealed doesn't mean no one noticed.

The "no guns" sign is notification that if you carry a gun you are not allowed in. You are not being "let in" and if you come in anyway you still don't have permission and you... sneak.. their gun in because you are well aware you are disregarding the notification (sign) that you do not have permission to be there.

 

[corneileous]

A property owner who has a no guns rule/policy/sign is telling everyone that those individual members of the public who carry guns do not have his permission to be on/in his property.

On his or her "private" property, I can understand that. On his or her "public" property, I don't understand that. Nor do I agree with it.

I just don't get how these "rules" for private property can carry over with the same legal coverage to public property. Not every Tom, **** and Harry is going to be coming into your house like they can in your store.

Criminals break the law. Those who trespass break the law. Whether they get caught at it or not is immaterial since being punished for breaking the law is a different thing than breaking the law. Hence those who .. sneak... their guns into/onto private property without permission are breaking trespass law and are ............... criminals.

It's funny how people like you are so black and white to put people like us who carry for protection in the same classification as real criminals who carry to impose their will on people and to inflict harm on others. Even YOU as the business owner who thinks would-be robbers are gonna be deterred by your sign just the same as you expect the people who carry to protect themselves from that.

Utterly disgusting.

I'm not saying you're wrong about the laws of trespassing. Just your logic.

As the saying goes, I would rather be tried by 12 than carried out by 6 over a stupid sign. I may be slapped with a trespassing charge but by God I'll be alive, and hopefully you and the rest of your patrons will, to stand trial over it.


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[corneileous]

I do not own a business and if I did I would welcome those who carry guns. I am pointing out that either we are for the rights of everyone or we are just as bad as anti gunners shouting "I want MY favorite rights and to hell with yours!"

So... are you for rights, all rights of all people, or are you for only those rights you happen to like?

I am for peoples rights. I just don't think the right should exist for public place owners to tell people they can't protect themselves from the REAL criminals unless measures are taken to make sure ALL guns stay OUT.

Why do you think airports and some courthouses use metal detectors? They know people ain't gonna follow and respect a stupid sign. That's why they ENFORCE their policy. That's the only way to do it.


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[NavyLCDR]

Why do you think airports and some courthouses use metal detectors?

Why do I think airports and courthouses have metal detectors? Because they are required to have them by law, that's why.

 

[corneileous]

Why do I think airports and courthouses have metal detectors? Because they are required to have them by law, that's why.

Are you saying that if it wasn't required by law, they wouldn't have such extreme security measures to keep guns out of courtrooms and airplanes?..lol.

The point about being required by law is moot.


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[Pandaz3]

I am ever hopeful that with the new administration, some of the laws will be changed. The Dept of Defense has already proposed new rules allowing servicemen, with permission of their respective Commanders, to conceal carry on base/post with the locally required permit. It could be that the Post Office will be removed from the list of 'No Guns' and other federal properties too. The proposed reciprocity of CCW permits/License would go a long way to easing the atmosphere of some business's

I have said earlier that I generally just carry anyway, in most States that I travel through all a property owner can do is 'Trespass' you, and once trespassed it would then be illegal to carry in that business ....for you as the trespasser. I would never try to impress some one of 'My Rights' in doing that. I am not a direct instrument of social change.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Are you saying that if it wasn't required by law, they wouldn't have such extreme security measures to keep guns out of courtrooms and airplanes?..lol.

The point about being required by law is moot.


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You're hilarious!

Or dangerously delusional.

 

[corneileous]

Do you still conceal carry into posted "No Carry" businesses?

No, sir, you are. It's not my fault you said it like it was ONLY because of it being required by law to have metal detectors in airports and courthouses is why they do it.




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[Blueshell]

https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/trespass

Trespass

Trespass is defined by the act of knowingly entering another person’s property without permission. Such action is held to infringe upon a property owner’s legal right to enjoy the benefits of ownership. Criminal charges, which range from violation to felony, may be brought against someone who interferes with another person’s legal property rights.
-snip-

A property owner who has a no guns rule/policy/sign is telling everyone that those individual members of the public who carry guns do not have his permission to be on/in his property.

Criminals break the law. Those who trespass break the law. Whether they get caught at it or not is immaterial since being punished for breaking the law is a different thing than breaking the law. Hence those who .. sneak... their guns into/onto private property without permission are breaking trespass law and are ............... criminals.

You're giving everyone your permission, so it's not trespass.

 

[Blueshell]

Putting on a jacket isn't sneaking but walking into a no guns business with your gun under your jacket so you don't get caught and thrown out is.... sneaking.

And people do get caught ... sneaking ... their guns in. If you are lucky you will continue to get away with it but just because you are carrying concealed doesn't mean no one noticed.

The "no guns" sign is notification that if you carry a gun you are not allowed in. You are not being "let in" and if you come in anyway you still don't have permission and you... sneak.. their gun in because you are well aware you are disregarding the notification (sign) that you do not have permission to be there.

If I'm not allowed in then how am I able to step through the door?

See if you have security posted, they'll stop me, but if you have no security then you're allowing me in.

You're choosing to not enforce your rule. As the property owner you have that right, I just think it's silly to keep the sign up meanwhile.

 

[Bikenut]

Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
Putting on a jacket isn't sneaking but walking into a no guns business with your gun under your jacket so you don't get caught and thrown out is.... sneaking.

And people do get caught ... sneaking ... their guns in. If you are lucky you will continue to get away with it but just because you are carrying concealed doesn't mean no one noticed.

The "no guns" sign is notification that if you carry a gun you are not allowed in. You are not being "let in" and if you come in anyway you still don't have permission and you... sneak.. their gun in because you are well aware you are disregarding the notification (sign) that you do not have permission to be there.

If I'm not allowed in then how am I able to step through the door?

See if you have security posted, they'll stop me, but if you have no security then you're allowing me in.

You're choosing to not enforce your rule. As the property owner you have that right, I just think it's silly to keep the sign up meanwhile.

You seem to think that because you can get away with it then it is OK just because you got away with it. And that is the attitude of someone who has no respect for rights or the law. Which is what I have been saying all along.

And if you get caught you will discover the property owner will enforce his rule. Actually you already know he will enforce his rule which is why you know you have to ... sneak... your gun in or you will get caught and suffer the consequences. You can talk all you want but the plain fact is by having to .. sneak.. your gun in you already know you are doing wrong.

 

[Bikenut]

Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
I do not own a business and if I did I would welcome those who carry guns. I am pointing out that either we are for the rights of everyone or we are just as bad as anti gunners shouting "I want MY favorite rights and to hell with yours!"

So... are you for rights, all rights of all people, or are you for only those rights you happen to like?

I am for peoples rights. I just don't think the right should exist for public place owners to tell people they can't protect themselves from the REAL criminals unless measures are taken to make sure ALL guns stay OUT.

Why do you think airports and some courthouses use metal detectors? They know people ain't gonna follow and respect a stupid sign. That's why they ENFORCE their policy. That's the only way to do it.


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If you are for people's rights why are you willing to disrespect the private property rights of others? And just exactly what is a REAL criminal since breaking the law is still breaking the law whether that law be trespass or robbery. Or are you saying that breaking some laws (disrespecting some rights) is just not as bad or as important as breaking other laws (disrespecting other rights)? Are you saying you get to decide which laws (rights) can be ignored because you think they aren't as important as other laws (rights) are?

By the way there are lots of people who think the right to keep and bear arms should not exist but that doesn't make that the truth.

Why do you think you get to decide what method of enforcing private property rights is acceptable? Isn't that the same attitude of anti gunners who want to decide what methods of keeping and bearing arms are acceptable?

Open to the public does not make it the same as a public place since open to the public only means the place is open to those individual members of the public who agree to abide by the rules of use for that place.

If one of those rules is no guns and you carry a gun then that place is not open to you because if you carry a gun you do not have permission to be there and if you go in anyway.. sneaking... your gun in you are trespassing. Since trespass is against the law you are breaking the law. Whether you get caught breaking the law doesn't change the fact that you are still breaking the law.... you just didn't get caught at it.

And this is easily understood since if there is a no guns rule and you get caught carrying a gun you get thrown out, and depending on the laws of your State concerning when punishment can be assessed, perhaps even arrested. Hence, while that place is still open to the public, that place is not open to you because you are not abiding by the rules of use. You, and others, understand this very well since you know you have to .... sneak... your gun in or you will be thrown out/perhaps arrested.

By the way.... this forum is private property but is open to the public. When you register (come in the door/want to use the property) you agree to abide by the rules of this forum. If you don't abide by those rules the property owner or his representative will ban you (throw you out) and this forum will no longer be open to you yet it will still be............. open to the public.

 

[corneileous]

You seem to think that because you can get away with it then it is OK just because you got away with it.

Well, in a way, yeah. Since we are not carrying in there to just basically say eff you to his sign, what he doesn't know isn't going to matter.

And that is the attitude of someone who has no respect for rights or the law. Which is what I have been saying all along.

I have respect for the law and people's rights but, why should we respect his rule if he can't respect our right to defend ourselves? Why should we respect what he wants if he can't ensure our safety from the real criminals that should be the ones he needs to worried about in the first place?

And if you get caught you will discover the property owner will enforce his rule. Actually you already know he will enforce his rule which is why you know you have to ... sneak... your gun in or you will get caught and suffer the consequences. You can talk all you want but the plain fact is by having to .. sneak.. your gun in you already know you are doing wrong.

Then I'll leave.


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[NavyLCDR]

I think part of the problem here is that corneileous doesn't know the difference between public property, private property, and private property that just happens to be open to the public at certain times. My local mall with "no guns" signs posted is private property that is open to the public during certain times. It is not public property - ever - until the government purchases it with tax payer dollars from the current owner.

 

[Blueshell]

You seem to think that because you can get away with it then it is OK just because you got away with it.

Nah. It's ok even if you make a stink about it.

And if you get caught you will discover the property owner will enforce his rule.

Property owners retain the choice to waive their rule. It's not your place to decide how others will act regarding their property.

....your gun in you already know you are doing wrong.

Carrying against policy is the right thing to, so I couldn't be in the wrong.

 

[Blueshell]

I think part of the problem here is that corneileous doesn't know the difference between public property, private property, and private property that just happens to be open to the public at certain times. My local mall with "no guns" signs posted is private property that is open to the public during certain times. It is not public property - ever - until the government purchases it with tax payer dollars from the current owner.

This is about access, not ownership.

No one is questioning who owns the property. He's talking about how the property is used. "Public property" ie "property that is open to the public".

You shouldn't need these things explained to you.

 

[Pandaz3]

which is why you know you have to ... sneak... your gun in or you will get caught and suffer the consequences. You can talk all you want but the plain fact is by having to .. sneak.. your gun in

I have Concealed Carry Permits in four states ....All require that I carry concealed. How is that sneaking?

 

[Bikenut]

Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post

which is why you know you have to ... sneak... your gun in or you will get caught and suffer the consequences. You can talk all you want but the plain fact is by having to .. sneak.. your gun in

I have Concealed Carry Permits in four states ....All require that I carry concealed. How is that sneaking?

Do you carry your concealed gun into/onto private property (stores are privately owned and are therefor private property) that have a no guns policy/rule knowing that if you carry it concealed no one will know so you can get away with it? If so then you are... sneaking... your gun into/onto private property against the owner's wishes.

 

[Bikenut]

This is about access, not ownership.

No one is questioning who owns the property. He's talking about how the property is used. "Public property" ie "property that is open to the public".

You shouldn't need these things explained to you.

How the property is used is exactly what the property owner is doing when he exercises his private property right to deny access/entry to anyone who is carrying a gun.

You already know all this as evidenced by your need to.. sneak.. you gun in since you already know that if you don't keep your ... sneaky .... gun a secret the property owner will throw you out.