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Bikenut
Guest
Ya but... some folks like to complicate it.
Or is it that they like to only look at the parts they like it in order to justify doing what they want to do regardless of the rights of others?
Benefits of carrying concealed and having real priorities.
- Thread starter gundaddypv
- Start date
Or is it that they like to only look at the parts they like it in order to justify doing what they want to do regardless of the rights of others?
Rocketgeezer
New member
I carry 24/7 since its been years that I'v had to go into a post office so that don't count, and as I have posted I go mostly to resturants that know us, and when we go somewhere new or if theres a gunbuster sign, the gun stays concealed, if its a good place and after we have been there several times I will start to open carry, and we have never ever asked to leave, it helps to be a big tipper, and if your there often enough the staff and management get to know you, and as long as you are not acting like some MORON , most places would rather have your 30-40 bucks for the dinner you ordered, than throw you out for having a gun
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Bikenut
Guest
Ok... how about I just try to make this "trespass" thing as simple as possible. May I strongly suggest following the link below and reading the information provided. Although I must caution folks to search the actual black letter laws, firearm and trespass!, of their own State to be sure they understand all the nuances of those laws....
(the word "you" in the following is used in the generic sense)
Trespass | LII / Legal Information Institute
Trespass
Trespass is defined by the act of knowingly entering another person’s property without permission. Such action is held to infringe upon a property owner’s legal right to enjoy the benefits of ownership.
-snip-
Please note that the act of trespass is knowingly entering another person's property without permission. Please also note that whether a person "knows" or not they still don't have the owner's "permission".... but the "knowingly" is only a part of being legally guilty of "trespass".
It is the "entering" that constitutes "trespass" ... NOT the "being asked to leave". "Being asked to leave" means you got caught already engaging in the act of having entered without permission. Refusing to leave is merely continuing the act of trespass that you were already doing before you got caught ... but refusing to leave means the legal punishment for trespass will likely be suffered.
A sign of some kind, perhaps a list of things, that the property owner prohibits on/in his property is notice that those who engage in those prohibited things do NOT have the property owner's permission to be on/in his property. That sign tells you who does not have permission.
Now a person could actually not know/didn't see the sign (some businesses have signs that are off to the side and almost impossible to see) and the first they know about it is when they are asked to leave..... upon which time they now know they do not have the owner's permission to be there. Or they can lie (to themselves and/or to the owner) and say they didn't know (knowingly) when they get caught and are asked to leave (oh... make no mistake "asked to leave" really means "politely required to leave").
The thing is... it doesn't matter what object the property owner says people are not allowed to bring in with them.... (some stadiums do not allow people to bring in coolers full of refreshments because they want to make money selling those refreshments... and some businesses do not allow people to bring in guns because they don't like guns/don't trust those folks who carry guns).... it still comes down to the simple fact that anyone who brings in a prohibited item does not have the owner's permission to be on/in the property and because they do not have permission they are therefor....
trespassing.
Again... first comes the trespass by a person sneaking in a gun where the property owner does not allow people with guns... then comes the getting caught part when the property owner asks (requires!) the person to leave... then comes the part where the person might suffer the legal punishment provided by the trespass laws.
But .... again.... first comes the trespass part by the person who is sneaking in the gun/cooler/whatever item the property owner has banned from his property.
By the way... I intentionally used the word "sneaking" because intentionally taking a concealed gun into a business where the person carrying knows the gun is not allowed IS........... "sneaking" the gun in. Although some people think "concealed means concealed" means as long as no one knows about it you can get away with it.... which would be "sneaking".
In the interest of full disclosure... I am not an attorney and the above is NOT legal advice... which is why I strongly suggest folks learn the applicable laws, both firearm and trespass and how they interact, (the actual black letter laws and not just what they hear from friends/cops or what they read in postings on the internet) in their own State of residence or States they intend to visit.
(the word "you" in the following is used in the generic sense)
Trespass | LII / Legal Information Institute
Trespass
Trespass is defined by the act of knowingly entering another person’s property without permission. Such action is held to infringe upon a property owner’s legal right to enjoy the benefits of ownership.
-snip-
Please note that the act of trespass is knowingly entering another person's property without permission. Please also note that whether a person "knows" or not they still don't have the owner's "permission".... but the "knowingly" is only a part of being legally guilty of "trespass".
It is the "entering" that constitutes "trespass" ... NOT the "being asked to leave". "Being asked to leave" means you got caught already engaging in the act of having entered without permission. Refusing to leave is merely continuing the act of trespass that you were already doing before you got caught ... but refusing to leave means the legal punishment for trespass will likely be suffered.
A sign of some kind, perhaps a list of things, that the property owner prohibits on/in his property is notice that those who engage in those prohibited things do NOT have the property owner's permission to be on/in his property. That sign tells you who does not have permission.
Now a person could actually not know/didn't see the sign (some businesses have signs that are off to the side and almost impossible to see) and the first they know about it is when they are asked to leave..... upon which time they now know they do not have the owner's permission to be there. Or they can lie (to themselves and/or to the owner) and say they didn't know (knowingly) when they get caught and are asked to leave (oh... make no mistake "asked to leave" really means "politely required to leave").
The thing is... it doesn't matter what object the property owner says people are not allowed to bring in with them.... (some stadiums do not allow people to bring in coolers full of refreshments because they want to make money selling those refreshments... and some businesses do not allow people to bring in guns because they don't like guns/don't trust those folks who carry guns).... it still comes down to the simple fact that anyone who brings in a prohibited item does not have the owner's permission to be on/in the property and because they do not have permission they are therefor....
trespassing.
Again... first comes the trespass by a person sneaking in a gun where the property owner does not allow people with guns... then comes the getting caught part when the property owner asks (requires!) the person to leave... then comes the part where the person might suffer the legal punishment provided by the trespass laws.
But .... again.... first comes the trespass part by the person who is sneaking in the gun/cooler/whatever item the property owner has banned from his property.
By the way... I intentionally used the word "sneaking" because intentionally taking a concealed gun into a business where the person carrying knows the gun is not allowed IS........... "sneaking" the gun in. Although some people think "concealed means concealed" means as long as no one knows about it you can get away with it.... which would be "sneaking".
In the interest of full disclosure... I am not an attorney and the above is NOT legal advice... which is why I strongly suggest folks learn the applicable laws, both firearm and trespass and how they interact, (the actual black letter laws and not just what they hear from friends/cops or what they read in postings on the internet) in their own State of residence or States they intend to visit.
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Bikenut
Guest
Link Removed
in·fringe (n-frnj)
v. in·fringed, in·fring·ing, in·fring·es
v.tr.
1. To transgress or exceed the limits of; violate: infringe a contract; infringe a patent.
2. Obsolete To defeat; invalidate.
v.intr.
To encroach on someone or something; engage in trespassing: an increased workload that infringed on his personal life.
also...
infringe [ɪnˈfrɪndʒ]
vb
1. (tr) to violate or break (a law, an agreement, etc.)
2. (intr; foll by on or upon) to encroach or trespass
Firefighterchen
OC for Tactical Advantage
Yes it is infringing on my Rights as a property owner.
Sent from my HTCONE using USA Carry mobile app
Axeanda45
Banned
No, it is infringing on RULES that you as a property owner have made......
Rules that I wholeheartedly agree you have the RIGHT to make...... as long as they do not infringe upon my rights.........
Simple questions that none of you will answer truthfully for fear of being shown as a hypocrite because to do so would show your other arguments as false:
If I am on "your property" do I relinquish my RIGHT to not be enslaved by you?
If I am on "your property" do I relinquish the RIGHT to defend my life?
If I am on "your property" do I relinquish my RIGHT to keep you from raping my wife or daughter or even myself?
Then how in the hell can you claim to have the RIGHT to keep me from having a rock or a knife or a gun in my pocket when it does you absolutely no harm whatsoever while it remains in my pocket and you dont even know it is there???????
Again, I am not saying at all that you cannot deny me entry or tell me to leave at any time for any reason you want..... yet most of you think that is exactly what I am saying...
Rules that I wholeheartedly agree you have the RIGHT to make...... as long as they do not infringe upon my rights.........
Simple questions that none of you will answer truthfully for fear of being shown as a hypocrite because to do so would show your other arguments as false:
If I am on "your property" do I relinquish my RIGHT to not be enslaved by you?
If I am on "your property" do I relinquish the RIGHT to defend my life?
If I am on "your property" do I relinquish my RIGHT to keep you from raping my wife or daughter or even myself?
Then how in the hell can you claim to have the RIGHT to keep me from having a rock or a knife or a gun in my pocket when it does you absolutely no harm whatsoever while it remains in my pocket and you dont even know it is there???????
Again, I am not saying at all that you cannot deny me entry or tell me to leave at any time for any reason you want..... yet most of you think that is exactly what I am saying...
BC1
,
I still think you have to make a case for remaining on someone's property unarmed before you can make a case for remaining armed. If one has no right to be there at all then they have no right to be there armed. And where does castle doctrine fit in all of this. At what point may you use force when an armed person refuses to leave your property? When a person is afraid of guns, stopping them from deciding what happens on their own property interferes with their constitutionally guaranteed pursuit of happiness. No provision in the constitution allows anyone to place another in fear or interfere with that persons pursuit of happiness. Just my opinion.
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Bikenut
Guest
While I understand your reasoning... there is one flaw.. and that is the assumption that you have some kind of right to be on/in the property of others.
You do NOT have any right to be on/in my property in the first place. Doesn't matter what you have in your pocket... you still do not have any right to be on/in my property. All you ever could possibly have is my permission ... if I choose to give it to you. So... right from the get go, whether you have the right to defend yourself or not, you are in the wrong by being on/in my property without my permission.
So... if you want to retain your other rights... stay out of/off of my property unless I give you permission to be there.
And... sneaking a gun in where the property owner says guns are not allowed means you do not have permission to be on/in that property.
The key word here is "permission". The property owner has the right to have sole discretion (except for some protected classes of people) over who has, and who does NOT have, his permission to be on/in his property.
Please consider that the property owner's private property rights trump the right to free speech... try telling all and sundry what you think of Obama in the middle of Wal Mart's cereal aisle and see what happens to your right to free speech. Even what would be considered protected political free speech won't fly in the cereal aisle.
Or how about freedom of religion? Try giving a sermon/holding a prayer meeting in the produce section of Meijers and see where that gets you.
Private property rights hinge on the right of the property owner to have control over who uses his property for what purposes... and that right is expressed in the property owner giving, or not giving, his permission. And the property owner's "rules" are his way of expressing who has, and who doesn't have, his permission.
"Open to the public" is NOT blanket permission! It is merely the property owner saying that individual members of the public who obey his rules have his permission to be in/on his property. Those who do not obey his rules do not have his permission. And those who do not have the property owner's permission are.............. trespassing.
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Bikenut
Guest
With the exception of what the Supreme Court has decided applies to individuals.... the Constitution only applies to the Federal government.... it does not apply to individual Citizens.
So the right to the pursuit of happiness only applies as a restriction against ... the government. It is the government that is not supposed to interfere with the individual's pursuit. The Constitution does not constrain individual citizens from interfering with each others pursuit of happiness.
And when can a person use force against another person, armed or not, when that person refuses to leave your property? I don't know how that would work out in the legal arena.. although bar bouncers occasionally use force to remove folks from private property. Although the act of trespass might have some weight in court... the use of deadly force would be governed by laws other than trespass laws.
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Bikenut
Guest
So will you "allow" me to have the private property right to make a rule that those who carry guns do not have my permission to be on/in my property?
Firefighterchen
OC for Tactical Advantage
Making rules on my property is my Right, you can't infringe my rules without infringing my Right.
If my property rules, that I have the Right to make, were:
Your female members have to sleep me with if on my property.
You must become pacifists if on my property.
You must do anything I say when on my property.
Then yes, in order for you to be on my property, you must obey my rules, if you don't want to obey my rules, you're not allowed on my property. End of story. If you come into my property knowingly infringing my rules, you are infringing my Right as a property owner, and I will deal with you accordingly.
Just like bikenut says, "you" is not directed at you axe. Nor do I have any of these rules we are speaking of for my property, but I do have the right to make them if I wanted.
Sent from my HTCONE using USA Carry mobile app
Axeanda45
Banned
While I appreciate all of your replies, none of them apply or negate my argument because of the simple fact that I said (and have said all along) that you can deny anyone for any reason you want entry or insist they leave.... what you cannot seem to wrap your heads around is that IF you allow me (anyone) on your property, then every RIGHT I/they have when NOT on your property is still mine/theirs and you cannot take them away simply because they are on YOUR property...
Johnny Dollar
New member
But if I say you're welcome on my property subject to the following conditions (no firearms) and you come on my property hiding a firearm in violation of the conditions I set for entry then you haven't been allowed on my property you've tresspassed.
Look, instead of trying to morally justify your actions why don't you just sack up and say "I don't give a flying frak about other people's rights only mine are important to me " at least you'd be being honest
Axeanda45
Banned
Unless I actually name someones name, "you" is not directed at any one person either.
I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on this subject... (even though I will claim I won, lol)
Rules to me are only preferences someone has (when it comes to their land/buildings/homes) for their property. I will comply to the point it isnt too inconvenient or dangerous to do otherwise. I will not parade in front of you open carrying if you dont want guns there... but, unless you have metal detectors or pat everyone down and provide armed guards for everyones safety, I WILL be armed......
Having a rule that only disarms the "law" abiding does NOT give you the power over me you wish/hope/claim it does, sorry charlie (even if there are "laws" on the books that say otherwise)........ MY LIFE and the tools to protect it (the RIGHT to have it on my person) trumps your "rule" and the "law" every time....
In fact, just by having a "rule" like that you have proven you cannot fathom what the real world is actually like and have disqualified yourself as a person allowed to make "rules" that I will follow...
Axeanda45
Banned
You almost got it!!!!!!! ( Other than the morally part..... a no firearms rules is immoral so I dont have to follow it, neither do you)
vernsimpson
New member
I feel the main point to this thread should be that we do not patronize businesses that have "No Guns Allowed" signs. Here in MN there are VERY few in the places I go that have had any such signs. There has been only a couple of places that have had signs and I have stopped going there. I really should print some "No Guns = No Business" cards and hand them out.
I do feel that any business or a persons home has the right to make rules. A good example would be "No Smoking". I do not allow any smoking in my house. My wife and I do not smoke so we ask all not to smoke in our house. If someone tries then I will ask them not to smoke and if they do light up I will ask them to leave. Now they do have the right to smoke but I have the right to ask them not to smoke in my house.
The same goes for guns. I should have the right to either deny or grant anyone to carry in my house. I will allow them to carry in my house but would like them to let me know they are carrying. I will do the same when I go to other peoples homes.
I do feel that any business or a persons home has the right to make rules. A good example would be "No Smoking". I do not allow any smoking in my house. My wife and I do not smoke so we ask all not to smoke in our house. If someone tries then I will ask them not to smoke and if they do light up I will ask them to leave. Now they do have the right to smoke but I have the right to ask them not to smoke in my house.
The same goes for guns. I should have the right to either deny or grant anyone to carry in my house. I will allow them to carry in my house but would like them to let me know they are carrying. I will do the same when I go to other peoples homes.
Firefighterchen
OC for Tactical Advantage
So, if no one knows about it it's okay to sneak it in...does this cover meth? Cocaine? Pot? Satanic idols? Etc...
The words "ask," "request," "insist," don't get the point across...they are forcing/requiring the trespasser to leave.
Sent from my HTCONE using USA Carry mobile app
The words "ask," "request," "insist," don't get the point across...they are forcing/requiring the trespasser to leave.
Sent from my HTCONE using USA Carry mobile app
Axeanda45
Banned
The "property rights"argument all of you are so proud of is fatally flawed and you just cannot seem to fathom it.......
You claim that a "property owner" has the power to control something that isnt his property....... at the same time you are claiming property rights trump all other rights.....
Is my body my property? my clothes? my life? my keys for my house and car? my jewelry? my glasses? my personal space? my ownership of these and other things I carry on my person or "have" as a human being do not transfer to you when I am standing on YOUR land..... No matter how much you try to misdirect or muddle the subject you just cannot ignore these simple facts....
You cannot seem to be able to comprehend that these things can BOTH be true at the same time... Your property rights and mine can exist (and do, whether you like or understand it or not) on the same piece of "property whether my name is on the deed or yours.... Your "property rights" end where mine begin.... Just because you own the property I am standing on you do NOT own me or the property that belongs to me in my personal space... Either "property rights" exist for us both or you are burying your head in the sand and ignoring the other side of the coin you are trying so hard to defend....
The "Moral" argument some try to make here is quite flawed also... When it comes up, you try to apply it as something like "if you respected the property owner" you wouldnt break his rules.... When in fact, the property owners "rules" (the no weapons one) are IMMORAL to begin with... Think about it, is it MORAL to wish someone unarmed and unable to defend themselves at the same time expecting to NOT be liable for or to provide armed security that is morally obligated and willing to protect MY LIFE at the possible cost of theirs? Which of us is moral? Me, who wishes only to carry the tools I deem necessary to possibly, or at least give me a fighting chance to defend myself, which while being hidden on my body/clothing harm no-one and you dont even know exist, or YOU, who insist I must be unarmed and yet provide me with no protection or even the thought of being responsible for me?
If I would happen to be killed or maimed/injured/disabled are YOU going to pay my bills? support my family? Or are you going to call on your team of lawyers and get out of everything possible? (this example would be a business for the most part)
It is not hypocritical to believe and act (defy a property owners rules) when those rules are immoral and endanger your life.... Hiding or "sneaking" something onto such property is NOT immoral or disrespectful or whatever else you try to call it to shame someone into "following your rules" just because you want them to... When I "sneak" my gun (as you like to call it) onto a property, I am "hiding" it to keep your feelings from being hurt and to continue to give you as the property owner the illusion you so desperately want which is that you are god here and everything you say goes.....
No-one on this earth owns me or has power over me UNLESS I relinquish that power to them...... You have that very same right yet you ignore it or relinquish it daily in one aspect or another, and when someone like myself comes along you get all bothered/upset because I/we wont submit like you do........ So you try to ridicule what you envy so you dont feel so bad about how you dont have the backbone to take total control over your life like some of us do, or at least attempt to do as much as possible.....
It really all comes down to one simple rule and if you could just try to practice it daily as much as possible the world around you would be much happier and better for it.. That rule is treat others as you want them to treat you.
I know, now you are going to say I am hypocrite.... if I am carrying something against someones "rules" I am not treating them as I would want to be treated.. when in fact I AM treating them exactly the way I want to be treated... by taking responsibility for my own safety, I am not requiring you to. (because I dont want to have the responsibility for your life)...
You claim that a "property owner" has the power to control something that isnt his property....... at the same time you are claiming property rights trump all other rights.....
Is my body my property? my clothes? my life? my keys for my house and car? my jewelry? my glasses? my personal space? my ownership of these and other things I carry on my person or "have" as a human being do not transfer to you when I am standing on YOUR land..... No matter how much you try to misdirect or muddle the subject you just cannot ignore these simple facts....
You cannot seem to be able to comprehend that these things can BOTH be true at the same time... Your property rights and mine can exist (and do, whether you like or understand it or not) on the same piece of "property whether my name is on the deed or yours.... Your "property rights" end where mine begin.... Just because you own the property I am standing on you do NOT own me or the property that belongs to me in my personal space... Either "property rights" exist for us both or you are burying your head in the sand and ignoring the other side of the coin you are trying so hard to defend....
The "Moral" argument some try to make here is quite flawed also... When it comes up, you try to apply it as something like "if you respected the property owner" you wouldnt break his rules.... When in fact, the property owners "rules" (the no weapons one) are IMMORAL to begin with... Think about it, is it MORAL to wish someone unarmed and unable to defend themselves at the same time expecting to NOT be liable for or to provide armed security that is morally obligated and willing to protect MY LIFE at the possible cost of theirs? Which of us is moral? Me, who wishes only to carry the tools I deem necessary to possibly, or at least give me a fighting chance to defend myself, which while being hidden on my body/clothing harm no-one and you dont even know exist, or YOU, who insist I must be unarmed and yet provide me with no protection or even the thought of being responsible for me?
If I would happen to be killed or maimed/injured/disabled are YOU going to pay my bills? support my family? Or are you going to call on your team of lawyers and get out of everything possible? (this example would be a business for the most part)
It is not hypocritical to believe and act (defy a property owners rules) when those rules are immoral and endanger your life.... Hiding or "sneaking" something onto such property is NOT immoral or disrespectful or whatever else you try to call it to shame someone into "following your rules" just because you want them to... When I "sneak" my gun (as you like to call it) onto a property, I am "hiding" it to keep your feelings from being hurt and to continue to give you as the property owner the illusion you so desperately want which is that you are god here and everything you say goes.....
No-one on this earth owns me or has power over me UNLESS I relinquish that power to them...... You have that very same right yet you ignore it or relinquish it daily in one aspect or another, and when someone like myself comes along you get all bothered/upset because I/we wont submit like you do........ So you try to ridicule what you envy so you dont feel so bad about how you dont have the backbone to take total control over your life like some of us do, or at least attempt to do as much as possible.....
It really all comes down to one simple rule and if you could just try to practice it daily as much as possible the world around you would be much happier and better for it.. That rule is treat others as you want them to treat you.
I know, now you are going to say I am hypocrite.... if I am carrying something against someones "rules" I am not treating them as I would want to be treated.. when in fact I AM treating them exactly the way I want to be treated... by taking responsibility for my own safety, I am not requiring you to. (because I dont want to have the responsibility for your life)...
