Advances in 9mm??

ridgewayn2

New member
Recently I've been reading that because of recent advancements in ammunition technology, the 9mm round has become much better and is comparable to .40 and .45. Did other rounds get completely neglected and not advance with the times? I'm not sure if these are just 9mm fanboys saying this or whether it's actually true. If it's as powerful as these other rounds, wouldn't it also increase recoil? I'm always interested in learning more about ammo and guns, so any insight would be appreciated.
 
Not necessarily. The ammunition has improved at transferring it's entire energy into the target (ie, body, due to expansion on impact) versus the old ball ammo that used to be carried in 9mm handguns. There's more than one way (adding a bigger charge behind the round) to improve the terminal ballistics of a bullet. The article to which you refer is comparing the 9mm and .40 S&W in regards to government and LE use. This opens an entire can of worms regarding why the FBI went to the .40 in the first place after the Miami shooting, trying to save face because they already passed on the .45ACP and other already available rounds, thus requiring a new round be created after blaming the lack of power of the 9mm for the killing of multiple FBI agents by one man who'd already suffered terminal gunshot wounds, transecting both of his lungs, and his aorta.

Leaving that be for now, the .40 round is only marginally heavier than the 9mm, and muzzle energy is marginally higher as well, but in regards to terminal ballistics, the differences are narly non-existent. Penetration and blossoming width both average and peak are nearly identical between two rounds of the same make in both calibers, such as HST or Speer Gold Dot.
In part, this is because the 9mm can be offered in +P and +P+ whereas the .40 is an over-pressure round by default, which is why there's no regulated and set standard for +P .40 caliber ammo, and why if you do see +P .40 (ie, buffalo bore) it's just a marketing gimmick.
 
I find it hard to believe that all these advancements in bullet technology bypassed all the others and landed on the 9mm. Maybe it's just another scheme to get all the PD's to sell their .40's and buy back the high capacity mags.
 
I find it hard to believe that all these advancements in bullet technology bypassed all the others and landed on the 9mm. Maybe it's just another scheme to get all the PD's to sell their .40's and buy back the high capacity mags.

You think magazine capacity is a big factor to the PD's?
Glock 17 (9mm) - 17 rd mag
Glock 22 (.40) - 15 rd mag

*shrugs* I'm not sure 2 rounds makes a reason to get a new caliber firearm.
 
Personally, I would prefer a good 9mm HP over a larger caliber round nosed FMJ. Due to physical problems, I carry a 9mm and feel confident it will do what I need done.
 
JHP over FMJ in most cases but FMJ is still needed in cases where you need to penetrate something hard. As for improvements in 9mm vs .40S&W, about the only thing that doesn't crossover is the increase in power. Bullet tech affects all sizes but the .40S&W round was already pushing the pressure limits when it came out. The rest of the sizes are playing catch up with the +P and +P+ ratings. Taking a 9mm to a +P+ power brings you inline with the .40S&W. With some of the same problems. And in many cases, more wear and tear than on the larger caliber guns.
 
in this old guys opinion carry as much gun as you can handle [weight and recoil] . as far as 9mm being as good as 45cal WHICH LEAVES A BIGGER HOLE ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
 
I find it hard to believe that all these advancements in bullet technology bypassed all the others and landed on the 9mm. Maybe it's just another scheme to get all the PD's to sell their .40's and buy back the high capacity mags.

The comparison was specific in regards to 9mm vs .40 S&W for law enforcement and government agencies. When you get the same terminal ballistics results from both guns, why not use the one with less recoil and more capacity per magazine? Also, 9mm parabellum is a globally standard round, while .40 isn't. If you haven't read the article, this is it:
Why Many Agencies are Switching to the 9mm - USA Carry

JHP over FMJ in most cases but FMJ is still needed in cases where you need to penetrate something hard. As for improvements in 9mm vs .40S&W, about the only thing that doesn't crossover is the increase in power. Bullet tech affects all sizes but the .40S&W round was already pushing the pressure limits when it came out. The rest of the sizes are playing catch up with the +P and +P+ ratings. Taking a 9mm to a +P+ power brings you inline with the .40S&W. With some of the same problems. And in many cases, more wear and tear than on the larger caliber guns.

If barrier penetration is my goal, I won't be using a handgun. I'll be using an SBR or Carbine with a breaching muzzle break and AP rounds.

in this old guys opinion carry as much gun as you can handle [weight and recoil] . as far as 9mm being as good as 45cal WHICH LEAVES A BIGGER HOLE ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?

If you refer to the article linked above, no mention was made of the .45ACP. This was really a 9 vs 40 thing for a specific purpose. That said, a .45 may expand slightly more than a .40 or 9mm, but it's also a much slower round, and that leads to the whole mass x velocity thing. Anyway, pretty much any handgun in the 9mm to .45ACP range is fairly similar in terminal ballistics, so carry whatever you're comfortable with.
 
You think magazine capacity is a big factor to the PD's?
Glock 17 (9mm) - 17 rd mag
Glock 22 (.40) - 15 rd mag

*shrugs* I'm not sure 2 rounds makes a reason to get a new caliber firearm.

I owned the Glock 22. I added a +2 floor plate and "voila!"...
18 rounds initial expenditure!

I don't worry too much over two rounds or so... I just carry more mags!


Sent from behind enemy lines.
 
.40/9mm Try to buy either in our area.......19.95 price each on only TWO boxes in stock! Getting the price all the way up to .40.

Have a hard time spending that much on basically (only marginal) the same round.......Love my Glock 19 and 17 rds.
 
As Jeff cooper said many years ago, "if your trick ammunition is so great, lets load some up in 45 ACP and kill elephants with it."
 
I owned the Glock 22. I added a +2 floor plate and "voila!"...
18 rounds initial expenditure!

I don't worry too much over two rounds or so... I just carry more mags!


Sent from behind enemy lines.

Exactly, I carry my firearm with 15+1, with at least 2 more mags. That equates to 46 rounds that I normally carry on me. If I get into a situation where more than 46 rounds are needed, the handgun is being used to get me to a rifle.
 
I went with a 9mm first then a .45. I saw the .40 as a waste of time then and I still do today.
Hernando county Sheriffs department (Florida) is now sporting Sig 227 .45 caliber service weapons and they absolutely Love them.
 
I finally read this article by Jason Hanson. I regard him as a twit based on previous articles, but since there seemed to be validity from a lot of the posters here, I tried to read his article with an open mind. He gives no citations for the information he purports, then at the end of the article claims that his Speer Gold Dot 124 gr 9mm has similar ballistics to the .40.

Speer 124 gr 9 mm: Link Removed

Speer 180 gr .40: Link Removed

The 9mm has 364 ftlbs, the .40 420 ft lbs of energy. This gives the .40 a little more than 15% more energy. But where does that energy come from? Let's look at the mass of the bullets. 180 gr versus 124 gr. The .40 is over 45% more massive. This means that to get the 9mm near the same energy it has to do it by increasing the speed of the bullet. A faster lighter bullet always penetrates more and expands less. A heavier slower bullet with similar energy expands more before it stops since it is harder to stop something with more inertia.

So in comparison with the rounds Jason says are similar. The .40 in the brand he quotes has more energy and is a more massive bullet (more mass more inertia, more expansion). The speed is the only thing the 9mm has over the .40.

If I had to pick between ONLY these two rounds, the data tells me to go with the .40.

The .45 speer gold dot 230 gr has this: Link Removed

Note: 404 ft lbs of energy (more than the 9mm, less than the .40) and only 890 fps (considerably slower than the other two rounds). Again, a much more massive bullet that is slower AND has more energy. It will do more damage than a 9mm as well.

For those that don't know the equation for the energy of a bullet it is equal to 1/2*mass*speed squared. Since speed is squared, a slight increase in it yields more energy. But more energy in a lighter round usually means more penetration and less expansion.

Is 9mm suitable, yes. Is it better than the .40 or .45, in my opinion no. I'll take bigger and slower going into you than faster and lighter as a self-defense round any day. There is a reason why the .40 was developed by the FBI when their 9mm weapons were ineffective during their shootout in Miami.

Also, this is a direct quote from his article:
"In fact, the only reason that the police switched from 9mm to .40 in the first place was because of the Assault Weapons ban of 1994. The 1994 law banned the production of high capacity magazines, however, you could still sell “pre-ban” magazines. So the gun manufacturers went to police departments and offered big incentives to upgrade to the .40 so they could get the departments to turn in the high capacity 9mm magazines that they could resell for a huge profit."

This is absolutely false. Read the history of the .40. It was developed by the FBI to be a round comparable in energy to the 10 mm but in a round that was sized like the 9mm. Since it was proven to be more effective, police departments, using the FBI data started switching over. Again, the glock 22 (.40 cal) is 15 rounds, the glock 17 (9 mm) is 17 rounds. Hmmm, yeah, high capacity ban my big toe!

Here's a good article that goes into the history and effectiveness of the .40.
http://dailyoddsandends.wordpress.com/2012/08/27/does-the-40-sw-get-enough-credit/
 
I find it hard to believe that all these advancements in bullet technology bypassed all the others and landed on the 9mm. Maybe it's just another scheme to get all the PD's to sell their .40's and buy back the high capacity mags.

All the advancements? How about a firearm that is lightweight, carries 20 rounds plus 1 in chamber, has a low recoil, and has exceptional exit velocity with lethality (particularly with boutique ammunition that has grown around the standard commercial ammunition) and accuracy. Granted it is not relatively inexpensive, but I have, along with many in law enforcement, secret service and, unfortunately, mexican drug dealers and the Ft Hood shooter, an FN 5.7X28 semiautomatic pistol. It is basically the pistol version for a NATO 5.56 cartridge.
 
Recently I've been reading that because of recent advancements in ammunition technology, the 9mm round has become much better and is comparable to .40 and .45. Did other rounds get completely neglected and not advance with the times? I'm not sure if these are just 9mm fanboys saying this or whether it's actually true. If it's as powerful as these other rounds, wouldn't it also increase recoil? I'm always interested in learning more about ammo and guns, so any insight would be appreciated.

Well, I'm not going to get into the specifics b/c others have already posted the data but... It's not that 9x19 is necessarily better than modern .40 or .45, rather that b/c of the advances in ammunition 9x19 is now more viable as a defensive caliber. Is modern 9x19 better than older 9x19...? Yes. Is is better than modern .40 or .45...? No, not really. What it comes down to is personal preference... whatever those are for the individual. Do I trust 9x19 for carry? Yes, I do. I also trust .380, 9x18 Mak and .38Spl... Hell, I carry a .22lr NAA Mini... I know the limitations of these calibers and I understand there are better options. I carry what I want for my own reasons and most importantly, I understand that my skill with my weapon is far more important that what caliber may or may not be at the ready.

What I believe far too many people hold on to is the myth of the 'ole one-shot-stop thing. People look at the ballistic test results of one individual bullet in gel or what have you and then choose. In a defensive incident, you will fire multiple rounds and likely empty your magizine/cylinder. Therefore, I'm not counting on what one bullet will do in a criminal but rather what many will do within seconds. Again... your ability with the weapon will save your life, not the caliber. I may find out that I'm wrong one day and that's something I'll regret if I live but, I am 100% confident that if I empty my magizine or cylinder into a BG at close range... it will provide me with the chance to 1) reload and continue firing b/c the BG has been slowed 2) retreat asap b/c the BG has stopped his attack or 3) the BG is dead or working on it shortly.

I can find many, many cases where a single shot of .40 or .45 to the vitals didn't stop a BG from functioning. So whether it's a 9x19, .40 or .45 you're going to (in most cases) require multiple shots to stop the attack (in whatever manner). On the flip-side, I can find many, many reports of actual one-shot-stops with everything from .38Spl to .45acp... what this tells me, is you can't rely on pure data to win a gunfight.
 
I think part of the reason you see more improvements in the 9mm is the .40 is already a high pressure round. The " standard pressure " is lower lower in some cases significantly than .40 s&W. They juice the 9mm up to +p and +p+ variants which run at similar pressures to the .40. A lot of it is marketing as a " super powerful" round.


Go Seahawks!
 
Yet another rant........

Caliber... caliber... mine is better than your because mine is bigger than yours... blah .. blah.. blah...

This never ending caliber pissing contest annoys me to no end because each and every caliber war neglects to address the most important aspect of caliber ... and no, it isn't the size of the bullet!

What is most important is for the person doing the shooting to use the largest caliber bullet that still affords the most effective accuracy!!!! under the real life conditions of a chaotic self defense event. Hint... standing on a "square" range in a perfect stance carefully squeezing the trigger while making sure the sights are aligned for each and every shot has absolutely nothing to do with what happens when bad guys are trying to kill you/rape your wife/daughter... in the dark... in the rain or snow... while you are trying to run backwards/sideways...

Train like real life happens and use the caliber that you can be most accurate with while training like real life happens.

Bottom line (regardless of what super duper self aggrandized "trainer/expert" says)... little bullets that the shooter is able to use to actually make holes are better than big bullets that miss and make no holes. A person using a .22LR that puts all of the rounds on target is more effective than a person using a .45 that can't hit fecal matter because of an inability to control the recoil.

Ignore all the "mine is better than yours" caliber hoopla and find the caliber/gun combination that allows YOU PERSONALLY to make the most accurate hits under real life scenarios. If that happens to be a .45 then good for you... if it happens to be a 9mm then good for you... if it happens to be a .22 then good for you... because when it comes right down to the nitty gritty... no matter what the size of the hits... only hits count.

End what must be my 900th "caliber" rant...
 
I think part of the reason you see more improvements in the 9mm is the .40 is already a high pressure round. The " standard pressure " is lower lower in some cases significantly than .40 s&W. They juice the 9mm up to +p and +p+ variants which run at similar pressures to the .40. A lot of it is marketing as a " super powerful" round.

You beat me to it. I was going to say almost exactly this. While he compared both "standard pressure" loads, the .40 is only available in standard pressure (anything else is marketing, and not an industry standard) while 9mm is available in +P and +P+ which can significantly change those comparative numbers. I didn't even look at .45ACP, because that wasn't really what the article was about, and it seemed to me at least, that was the article the OP was referencing for his original question.
 
Well here goes another opinion; I don't like high-pressure rounds. There, I said it.

I carry .45acp in my XD-S for one reason only; it makes all the windows rattle at my favorite indoor range. There, I said that too. I know that's true as my wife was in the showroom talking to the owner, when he commented I better not make him have to re-caulk all his windows.

Carry what you're comfortable with and shoot well. That's all folks!
 

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