What if someone grabs your firearm while you are Open Carrying?

[Bikenut]

Never met a ghetto-rat scumbag that was afraid of a gun. Have seen plenty of them dare an armed person to shoot them. How many have grabbed for the gun of the LEO arresting them? Never say never. Never say can't. Never say won't.

I haven't said "never" and I haven't said "can't" and I haven't said "won't".

What I have said is for folks to man up and provide cites and/or links to actual factual researchable incidents where a non LEO open carrier has had their gun grabbed... and to provide those cites and/or links in a number large enough to be noticeable when compared to the decades of open carry in just Arizona. And since there are decades of open carry in just Arizona there should be a multitude of those incidents available.

Got cites and/or links to gun grabs from everyday folks in a number significant enough to even make for more than just a footnote in History?

 

[whodat2710]

In Ohio, if I'm wrong, someone please correct me, if someone tries to take your firearm he means to hurt or kill you. Now your life is in danger and you have the right to use deadly force to prevent your firearm form being taken.

I OC and CC a 1911 using an IWB holster which keeps my firearm tight against my hip. Takes a good pull to remove my firearm. It's all back to knowing your surroundings and awareness.

My initial point about ensuring your gun remains in your holster (simply using your firing hand to force it down into the holster) is so that you can do whatever is necessary after that to get your strong side away from the attacker, leaving access to your holster available to you and not him. If the gun comes out of the holster while you are both trying to gain possession of the gun, well, I don't go to Vegas for a reason. 50/50 odds on who get's the gun is not something I want to bet my life on. If it stays in the holster until you are ready to draw and defend yourself, you win. If a BG is trying to grab your gun, chances are it is because he doesn't have one of his own.

 

[BC1]

Got cites and/or links to gun grabs from everyday folks in a number significant enough to even make for more than just a footnote in History?

No. But a sociopathic career criminal who would rape, murder, sodomize, torture or commit other acts of depraved indifference will certainly not hesitate. That's the same as thinking another gun law stops a criminal. Certain people will only be stopped one way. And while we don't frequent their neighborhood they certainly shop in ours. A lack of abundance of stories is in no way indicative of anything.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Never met a ghetto-rat scumbag that was afraid of a gun. Have seen plenty of them dare an armed person to shoot them. How many have grabbed for the gun of the LEO arresting them? Never say never. Never say can't. Never say won't.

Historical statistical data indicates that you are mistaken. Statistics indicate that most of the time when a gun is used defensively, no shots are ever fired. Statistics also indicate that the majority of criminals won't burglarize homes that are occupied in the US because the criminals are afraid of getting shot by the homeowners. Occupied home burglaries are much more common in the UK because of their gun control laws.

You really think you can compare Joe Citizen defending himself with a gun to a LEO arresting a criminal? There are much different motivations for the actions of a criminal being arrested by a LEO than for a criminal committing a crime against Joe Citizen.

 

[Bikenut]

Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
Got cites and/or links to gun grabs from everyday folks in a number significant enough to even make for more than just a footnote in History?

No. But a sociopathic career criminal who would rape, murder, sodomize, torture or commit other acts of depraved indifference will certainly not hesitate. That's the same as thinking another gun law stops a criminal. Certain people will only be stopped one way. And while we don't frequent their neighborhood they certainly shop in ours. A lack of abundance of stories is in no way indicative of anything.

So by your own admission you have no proof that your fear mongering about gun grabs has any actual basis in fact. (see part of your post I put in bold for emphasis)

Just because bad people shop in our neighborhoods doesn't mean they grab guns in our neighborhoods so trying to make that implication just doesn't cut it. You have already admitted you have no cites and/or links to actual gun grab incidents from bad guys so it would appear that the neighborhood part of that equation is immaterial.

And yes, the lack of any evidence to support a claim IS evidence the claim isn't fact because if it were indeed fact..... there would be evidence to support it.

So you got nothing except an opinion. You most certainly are entitled to your opinion (and I fully support your entitlement to have your opinion) but if you are going to present your opinion as fact then .... support it with cites and/or links to actual factual evidence instead of pushing fear hoping for an emotional response.

No cites to actual factual incidents of gun grabs from open carriers by anyone, including bad guys, in any significant number that would be more than a fart in a windstorm during the decades of open carry in just Arizona.... means your opinion that open carry will result in gun grabs is nothing more than your opinion with no facts to back it up. Perhaps it would be wise for you to reflect upon your opinion and temper it with real world facts.

 

[BC1]

Bikenut & Navy...
.
No. I'm only saying that nothing is absolute. As I found out years ago anything can happen. The thing you least expect... that you never hear about... it can happen to you. As much as I support whatever law is legal (I do support OC) it doesn't mean it's a good idea. My youth taught me much about thug life. I put nothing past these animals. It happens all the time in the inner cities. Thugs routinely kill each other for a gun, drugs, money or cooch. Everyone is armed and everyone knows it. Yet no one is stopped by the knowledge that the other rat is armed. They go right after each other with impunity. There were over 500 gun murders in Chicago last year. Add up all the perp-on-perp murders across America. Does anyone know what each murder was over? No. Do we know it was not over a gun? No. Will they kill each other for a gun? Absolutely. The press rarely tells us much about why minorities kill each other. All these low-life's shop at Walmart too.

 

[mappow]

Best argument against OC as yet. Thanks BC. I'm PRO OC but what you posted makes sense.

 

[whodat2710]

Bikenut & Navy...
.
No. I'm only saying that nothing is absolute. As I found out years ago anything can happen. The thing you least expect... that you never hear about... it can happen to you. As much as I support whatever law is legal (I do support OC) it doesn't mean it's a good idea. My youth taught me much about thug life. I put nothing past these animals. It happens all the time in the inner cities. Thugs routinely kill each other for a gun, drugs, money or cooch. Everyone is armed and everyone knows it. Yet no one is stopped by the knowledge that the other rat is armed. They go right after each other with impunity. There were over 500 gun murders in Chicago last year. Add up all the perp-on-perp murders across America. Does anyone know what each murder was over? No. Do we know it was not over a gun? No. Will they kill each other for a gun? Absolutely. The press rarely tells us much about why minorities kill each other. All these low-life's shop at Walmart too.

Simple fact is that a true bad guy who is interacting with a cop:
a. knows the cop is armed
b. knows that if he complies he may go to prison
c. doesn't want that to happen.
This is different from a random bad guy entering an establishment with ill intent, and a random stranger being in that establishment who happens to be openly carrying. Bad guys aren't necessarily Mensa candidates, but they do have self preservation skills. If they want to rob a place, chances are they will wait for OC guy to leave, or choose another store, rather than trying to take the gun from the guy. Argue that.

 

[Bikenut]

Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
Got cites and/or links to gun grabs from everyday folks in a number significant enough to even make for more than just a footnote in History?

Bikenut & Navy...
.
No. I'm only saying that nothing is absolute. As I found out years ago anything can happen. The thing you least expect... that you never hear about... it can happen to you. As much as I support whatever law is legal (I do support OC) it doesn't mean it's a good idea. My youth taught me much about thug life. I put nothing past these animals. It happens all the time in the inner cities. Thugs routinely kill each other for a gun, drugs, money or cooch. Everyone is armed and everyone knows it. Yet no one is stopped by the knowledge that the other rat is armed. They go right after each other with impunity. There were over 500 gun murders in Chicago last year. Add up all the perp-on-perp murders across America. Does anyone know what each murder was over? No. Do we know it was not over a gun? No. Will they kill each other for a gun? Absolutely. The press rarely tells us much about why minorities kill each other. All these low-life's shop at Walmart too.

And what I am saying is that unless there is factual evidence that the average everyday open carrier is in danger of having their gun grabbed by the thugs you are mentioning ... supported by cites and/or links that you have admitted you do not have...trying to equate the fear of bad ass thugs with the fear of gun grabs by those thugs is nothing more than fear mongering.

Facts are facts. Fact ... there are bad ass thugs. But the fact that there are bad ass thugs does NOT equate to bad ass thugs grabbing guns from open carriers. For your argument to have any validity cites and/or links to actual incidents where bad ass thugs grabbed guns from open carriers would be needed instead of trying to use the fear of bad ass thugs to equate to the fear of bad ass thugs engaging in gun grabs.

originally posted by mappow

Best argument against OC as yet. Thanks BC. I'm PRO OC but what you posted makes sense.

Did you miss the part where BC admitted he did not have any actual facts to back up his argument?

 

[Chris Rakes]

Never met a ghetto-rat scumbag that was afraid of a gun. Have seen plenty of them dare an armed person to shoot them. How many have grabbed for the gun of the LEO arresting them? Never say never. Never say can't. Never say won't.

can say never had, or never did

 

[BC1]

And what I am saying is that unless there is factual evidence that the average everyday open carrier is in danger of having their gun grabbed by the thugs you are mentioning ... supported by cites and/or links that you have admitted you do not have...trying to equate the fear of bad ass thugs with the fear of gun grabs by those thugs is nothing more than fear mongering.

Facts are facts. Fact ... there are bad ass thugs. But the fact that there are bad ass thugs does NOT equate to bad ass thugs grabbing guns from open carriers. For your argument to have any validity cites and/or links to actual incidents where bad ass thugs grabbed guns from open carriers would be needed instead of trying to use the fear of bad ass thugs to equate to the fear of bad ass thugs engaging in gun grabs.

Did you miss the part where BC admitted he did not have any actual facts to back up his argument?

There's not evidence to back-up everything. And there's no evidence that there is a God. There are no facts. Yet the majority of 7 billion people believe it. Pick a city and dive into the inner-city murders last year. Then tell me with absolute certainty none were related to getting the gun just because you can't find it on the web. Most of us learned years ago that the web isn't reality.
.
I watched this on "The Firs 48" just last week. A guy lives on the second floor of an apartment complex in the Pork & Beans neighborhood of Miami. He legally owns guns. he hasn't ever been arrested but lives the thug life. Another group decides to take the guns. A wicked gun battle broke out that started in the parking lot when rivals tried a beat-down to get the gun he carries. He managed to get in the building. A gun battle then erupted between this guy and a group outside. The apartment was shot to hell inside. One of the rival gang members was killed on the grass outside the apartment. They tried to kill him to get his guns. End of show.
.
Then there's the perp who attempts a crime and his victim draws a gun. he stands there screaming "go ahead, shoot me," daring him and continuing to advance." This whole argument is based upon whether there are cases you can find on the web? Don't bet your life on it.
.
The biggest argument for states to not release information on people with a CCW is because it endangers them from those who would seek to steal the guns. Read about that. I love to bring this up because some of the posters will go batshit. Then again, I don't see many people writing about CC problems. But there's many hundreds of posts about being hassled for OC. I like flying under the radar as best I can. Don't like to attract attention or looks from the general public. The decision to OC is purely yours. Do as you see fit but you won't convince me it's best for m personally.

 

[Johnny Dollar]

18-year-old gets 40 years for two S. Richmond murders - Richmond Times-Dispatch: Crime News

Here is a news story about a man that was open carrying, had his gun grabbed from him and was shot with it. His assailant clearly knew he was armed and chose to fight him anyway. I also seem to remember a story on THR about a guy that was standing in line at a stop and rob and had some punk reach over and start tugging on his gun just to jerk his chain. If I can find the thread I’ll post a link. I think the reason that you don’t often hear of open carriers being attacked isn’t because the criminals are scared off by your gun as much as because there aren’t that many open carriers out there for it to happen to.

I don’t so much object to open carry but if you’re going to do it at least do a realistic risk assessment beforehand. Criminals attack openly armed police officers every day of the year, they aren’t all going to be in awe of your mighty boom stick and there are some out there that won’t hesitate to attack you. I’ve had occasion to draw a firearm and have the guy I drew on stand there and dare me to shoot him and I have to say again if they aren’t going to back down to a gun in their face they sure as Hell aren’t going to back down to a gun in a holster.

 

[BluesStringer]

I love to bring this up because some of the posters will go batshit.

Dude, that is seriously a Crazy Love....

 

[BC1]

18-year-old gets 40 years for two S. Richmond murders - Richmond Times-Dispatch: Crime News

Here is a news story about a man that was open carrying, had his gun grabbed from him and was shot with it. His assailant clearly knew he was armed and chose to fight him anyway. I also seem to remember a story on THR about a guy that was standing in line at a stop and rob and had some punk reach over and start tugging on his gun just to jerk his chain. If I can find the thread I’ll post a link. I think the reason that you don’t often hear of open carriers being attacked isn’t because the criminals are scared off by your gun as much as because there aren’t that many open carriers out there for it to happen to.

I don’t so much object to open carry but if you’re going to do it at least do a realistic risk assessment beforehand. Criminals attack openly armed police officers every day of the year, they aren’t all going to be in awe of your mighty boom stick and there are some out there that won’t hesitate to attack you. I’ve had occasion to draw a firearm and have the guy I drew on stand there and dare me to shoot him and I have to say again if they aren’t going to back down to a gun in their face they sure as Hell aren’t going to back down to a gun in a holster.

They'll choose to not believe your story. Been trying to get them to understand that OC isn't an issue to a real thug but they don't believe anything that goes against their principals. Personally I think it's Freudian for many who OC... not meant to insult the whole bunch but I really do believe that's part of it for some people.

 

[superprincess]

If they can pick your pocket and take your wallet, I am pretty sure they can take your firearm. Something to think of, if you are going to open carry.

 

[Johnny Dollar]

If they can pick your pocket and take your wallet, I am pretty sure they can take your firearm. Something to think of, if you are going to open carry.

This brings up an interesting point. I’m no expert on OC every one I’ve ever seen doing it doesn’t use a retention holster. I’m not saying that’s a reason not to OC but if you are going to do so, use a retention holster

 

[Bikenut]

18-year-old gets 40 years for two S. Richmond murders - Richmond Times-Dispatch: Crime News

Here is a news story about a man that was open carrying, had his gun grabbed from him and was shot with it. His assailant clearly knew he was armed and chose to fight him anyway. I also seem to remember a story on THR about a guy that was standing in line at a stop and rob and had some punk reach over and start tugging on his gun just to jerk his chain. If I can find the thread I’ll post a link. I think the reason that you don’t often hear of open carriers being attacked isn’t because the criminals are scared off by your gun as much as because there aren’t that many open carriers out there for it to happen to.

I don’t so much object to open carry but if you’re going to do it at least do a realistic risk assessment beforehand. Criminals attack openly armed police officers every day of the year, they aren’t all going to be in awe of your mighty boom stick and there are some out there that won’t hesitate to attack you. I’ve had occasion to draw a firearm and have the guy I drew on stand there and dare me to shoot him and I have to say again if they aren’t going to back down to a gun in their face they sure as Hell aren’t going to back down to a gun in a holster.

Incorrect... according to the article the gun wasn't "grabbed" from the OC'er... the OC'er lost his gun to the perp during a struggle. Guess what... the very same thing can happen to someone carrying concealed.

I never said a gun grab couldn't happen. What I said was for folks to provide cites and/or links to incidents in a number large enough to be more than a rarity. And I said there are decades of open carry in just Arizona to draw from. Yet all that can be found are rare isolated incidents.

By the way...if OC doesn't deter the really bad bad ass thug nothing would have anyway. But if OC deters the less than bad bad ass thug then that is one less thug I have to deal with. But would CC deter the less than bad bad ass thug? Would it?

They'll choose to not believe your story. Been trying to get them to understand that OC isn't an issue to a real thug but they don't believe anything that goes against their principals. Personally I think it's Freudian for many who OC... not meant to insult the whole bunch but I really do believe that's part of it for some people.

Unreal.... you actually have made an implication to the old "they must be compensating for a teeny weenie" crap in a weak attempt to draw attention away from the fact that not only have you NOT provided any cites and/or links to back up your arguments but have admitted that you have no facts.

 

[Bikenut]

If they can pick your pocket and take your wallet, I am pretty sure they can take your firearm. Something to think of, if you are going to open carry.

I'm sure an OC'er could have his gun grabbed but then I'm also sure a CC'er could have his gun grabbed too since that thin bit of fabric called a shirt is NOT Harry Potter's invisibility cloak.

What I have asked for are cites and/or links to actual factual incidents of gun grabs in a number larger than a distinct rarity especially considering the decades of open carry that has been done in just Arizona. If gun grabs are happening then finding actual factual incidents should be super easy. Yet those who talk down OC because of the fear of a gun grab always seem to come up short on actual facts.

 

[BC1]

Incorrect... according to the article the gun wasn't "grabbed" from the OC'er... the OC'er lost his gun to the perp during a struggle. Guess what... the very same thing can happen to someone carrying concealed.

I never said a gun grab couldn't happen. What I said was for folks to provide cites and/or links to incidents in a number large enough to be more than a rarity. And I said there are decades of open carry in just Arizona to draw from. Yet all that can be found are rare isolated incidents.

By the way...if OC doesn't deter the really bad bad ass thug nothing would have anyway. But if OC deters the less than bad bad ass thug then that is one less thug I have to deal with. But would CC deter the less than bad bad ass thug? Would it?

Unreal.... you actually have made an implication to the old "they must be compensating for a teeny weenie" crap in a weak attempt to draw attention away from the fact that not only have you NOT provided any cites and/or links to back up your arguments but have admitted that you have no facts.

Two sides of the same coin. You're splitting hairs. You're he one not researching fats. I'm not researching anything for you. Tell me you know for a fact that none of the thousands of perp-on-perp gun murders were over a gun. It's a ridiculous position to take. There is no absolute anything in this world. On any given day anything can happen. We're not interested in the past, we're interested in the future. But f you think no one will ever make a play for any OC gun, well... it's your funeral. Carry on. I support the law. I just think it's not always pertinent.
.
Regarding the Freud thing? Some gun owners definitely fall into this category. It's not meant as a slur but rather factual based on human behavior according to Freud, Jung, Theodor Rubin and others. You don't have to agree with an opinion. And getting mad about it merely makes it personal... arguing won't change someone's opinion.
.
I recently took s post very personal and flew-off at a group of posters. I gave myself a time-out for a few weeks.

 

[BC1]

I'm sure an OC'er could have his gun grabbed but then I'm also sure a CC'er could have his gun grabbed too since that thin bit of fabric called a shirt is NOT Harry Potter's invisibility cloak.

I would have to agree with this as well. No one is immune from a grab.