What to say to an open carry visitor at church?

[Firefighterchen]

To be perfectly honest after reading this thread I think most of the people responding would be the very ones that I would consider disruptors if they showed up at my church. Nothing that I’ve read in this thread has given me reason to believe any thing other than that you open carry just to stir the pot (and to be clear I’m not talking about open carriers in general I’m talking about the group in this thread specifically) and if you did show up at my church open carrying you’d be doing it just to prove you can.

Church policy is dictated by a church council and the Pastor as they believe they are directed by God. I (me personally) have input but not the final say. Be that as it may, nothing that I’ve read here has inclined me to walk into the next Church Council meeting and suggest we rethink our response to open carry in our church. If anything I’m more likely to walk in there and suggest that we make it policy that should it ever happen we make sure that TWO people approach him (preferably one a cop) and explain the policy and as soon as he starts disrupting the service to tell us what Jesus would do he be taken into custody and trespassed off the property.

As I said earlier I consider most of you to be disruptors. Conversations with disruptors are pointless because they keep circling around to “the disruptor wants to do what the disruptor wants to do’ and they never get anywhere except for the disruptor keeps getting more wound up because he isn’t getting his way.

So, let me end with this; we appreciate that you may or may not choose to worship with us someday however our church policy does forbid the open display of firearms in the building. If you find that you can’t abide by that policy then we invite you to worship in a church that more closely meets your needs.

Good day

And if you haven’t got it yet please let me be explicitly clear, I can’t speak for the rest of my church or the security team but the fact that you are armed is irrelevant to me except in as far as when I see you walk through the doors of my church I assume (and again nothing I’ve read here has changed my outlook) that you are doing so with the specific intent of causing a scene and disrupting the church and that is what I’m going to act on

You, and the majority of main stream church goers, are the reason I stopped going to the establishment known as church.

Sent from my HTCONE using USA Carry mobile app

 

[tcox4freedom]

You, and the majority of main stream church goers, are the reason I stopped going to the establishment known as church.

Sent from my HTCONE using USA Carry mobile app

Don't give up on church all together. Ag (anti-gun) and AG (anti-GOD) Libtards have definitely infiltrated the church. The progressive libtard movement has weakened a LOT of churches in America. But, we still need people that are willing to help the rest of us in taking our churches BACK for Christ.

I can't speak for churches in your area. But, we are making some headway here in the south. Even though, we can't legally OC here yet. Most churches in my area are very PRO 2am & pro gun. We just need to keep building our congregations and educating people. (You would be welcome here at my church.)


-

 

[Ringo]

Does God turn away anyone, including bums, prostitutes, drug addicts, poor people who don't have much to put in the collection basket, people who don't get involved in church functions, open carriers or concealed carriers, fornicators, adulterers, rich people, good honest people, and even murderers, who repent and accept Christ? Do churches turn away those bums, prostitutes, drug addicts, poor people who don't have much to put in the collection basket, people who don't get involved in church functions, open carriers or concealed carriers, fornicators, adulterers, and murderers, denying them the opportunity to be led to God?

My point is quite simple... God does not turn away anyone but churches do. And the reason churches turn people away is the congregation denying them the opportunity to be led to God? denying them the opportunity to be led to God?their church will have. And that is not following God...

A building is not the church, a building is no more than a place to assemble for a worship service. The Church is the Body of Christ made up of all of His followers. Churches do not turn away anyone, including bums, prostitutes, drug addicts, poor people who don't have much to put in the collection basket, people who don't get involved in church functions, fornicators, adulterers, rich people, good honest people, and even murderers, who accept Christ & Repent. (open carry still optional :biggrin . No, churches do not deny people the opportunity to be led to God. Only God can judge & turn non-repentant sinners away from His Kingdom and into HELL. If anyone is turned away or reprimanded it's because the church is following God instructed doctrine. Like duh! Really?

 

[Firefighterchen]

Don't give up on church all together. Ag (anti-gun) and AG (anti-GOD) Libtards have definitely infiltrated the church. The progressive libtard movement has weakened a LOT of churches in America. But, we still need people that are willing to help the rest of us in taking our churches BACK for Christ.

I can't speak for churches in your area. But, we are making some headway here in the south. Even though, we can't legally OC here yet. Most churches in my area are very PRO 2am & pro gun. We just need to keep building our congregations and educating people. (You would be welcome here at my church.)


-

As Ringo just stated, I believe in a more intimate church, not the establishment Cypher is so proud of. But I thank you for the invite, and hope you win in your pursuit to get back your churches. If I'm ever in the south, I'll send you a message.

Sent from my HTCONE using USA Carry mobile app

 

[NavyLCDR]

I’m curious how many of you that have a better plan on how to run the church I attend

Number one, have a church of 20,000 some odd members (because clearly if you’re doing it better, you’re drawing more people)

But what I really want to know is how many of you attend church regularly and if you do attend church how many of you open carry in church?

And if not why not?

Clearly you are doing what better? Preaching the gospel or entertaining?

2 Timothy 4:3
New International Version (NIV)


"3 For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear."

As far as a better security plan - quite simply I would be more concerned about the firearms that people are sneaking into your church concealed more than those worn openly on holsters on belts.

 

[wolf_fire]

I’m curious how many of you that have a better plan on how to run the church I attend

Number one, have a church of 20,000 some odd members (because clearly if you’re doing it better, you’re drawing more people)

But what I really want to know is how many of you attend church regularly and if you do attend church how many of you open carry in church?

And if not why not?

I do attend church regularly and I do carry every Sunday. My pastor and I have had conversations about it and he is glad that I do. In fact, I and a handful of others are trying to incorporate some added security measures for our church, but this is a delicate issue.

For one, most of the church going folk don't see a need for added security measures. A true sheepdog does. Most of the congregation at my church would be aghast at anyone thinking of carrying a gun inside the house of the Lord, let alone openly carrying it. Out of respect for the congregation, and until they start realizing the evil deeds that do happen in the world and in some churches, I will respect the community that I worship with.

We have already put feelers out to a number of the congregation regarding security measures. Most are anti-gun. It is not my mission to change their minds on this. Therefore, our small team trying to gain some added security to the church is, as I mentioned, a delicate task. We do not wish to be divisive with our church members. One conversation I had with a church member had them asking nervously, "Is there really a need for added security?". My reply, "We've heard nothing directly, but bad things do happen everywhere. We're just trying to prevent something here." It was obvious from his facial expression that this concept was foreign to him. I had another congregant, who thinks that nothing bad would happen in a church, state, "Someone would have to really be stupid to try to do something during a Sunday morning service with all those people." He's completely oblivious to the fact that with this attitude most of them are just sheep for the slaughter.

The like-minded folk in this forum understand personal security, they understand the need to carry. Many other folk in the world do not, including many members at my church. A Sunday worship service is not, in my humble opinion, the proper place to force a 2nd Amendment conversation especially with those that disagree. I attend this church because of the Gospel that is preached not for Constitutional activism. These reasons I have provided are why I choose to carry concealed at church.

 

[Bikenut]

A building is not the church, a building is no more than a place to assemble for a worship service. The Church is the Body of Christ made up of all of His followers. Churches do not turn away anyone, including bums, prostitutes, drug addicts, poor people who don't have much to put in the collection basket, people who don't get involved in church functions, fornicators, adulterers, rich people, good honest people, and even murderers, who accept Christ & Repent. (open carry still optional :biggrin . No, churches do not deny people the opportunity to be led to God. Only God can judge & turn non-repentant sinners away from His Kingdom and into HELL. If anyone is turned away or reprimanded it's because the church is following God instructed doctrine. Like duh! Really?

Matthew 18:20
For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them.

So Ringo... I think you and I are actually on the same page in regards to our beliefs about what the real church is.

But when I refer to "churches" in this discussion I am referring to those buildings (churches) filled with men (congregations) who judge their fellow man as unfit to be in their personal "good ole boy's club" and turn people away because they aren't "acceptable" for some reason or other while thinking they are such a good "church" because their attendance is in the thousands of folks who have not come together in God's name but came to watch the Sunday morning entertainment show so they can say that they went to "church" on Sunday.

By the way.. to everyone reading this post....if that description above doesn't fit your church then I'm not talking about your church.

And I have been pointing out that any "security" policy/plan that targets open carriers while ignoring concealed carriers has nothing to do with providing any actual security but has everything to do with being open carry phobic. And if the focus really was on providing security to prevent a shooting then anyone who was actually intellectually honest would realize targeting only the guns that can be seen still leaves all the guns that can't be seen... which means there are a bunch of guns that "security" doesn't even know about. And the assumption that what can't be seen can't be a threat is just plain ... silly.

What annoys me is when there is a shooting and it is said that a gun carrying member of security stopped the shooter by using his/her concealed gun ... that is used as justification for security carrying guns yet that very same reasoning is also justification for anyone and everyone in the congregation to carry guns because whether carrying openly or concealed the point is to have a gun so a person doesn't have to get shot waiting for security to come running.

You know... like outside of "church" in the outside world where people carry guns openly or concealed so they don't get shot waiting for the cops (security) to come running...........

 

[Bikenut]

I am reminded of the following story when people say "There is no need for guns! God will protect me!"

A man was on the roof of his house during a flood and prayed for God to save him....

Along came a neighbor in a canoe who said to the man... "Jump in!" and the man on the roof said... "No thanks. God will save me"

Then a motor boat came along and the guy in the boat said..."Jump in!" and the man on the roof said... "No thanks. God will save me"

And then a helicopter showed up dangling a rope and the pilot said "Grab the rope!" and the man on the roof said... "No thanks. God will save me"

Well... the man of the roof drowned and when he met God he asked God why He didn't come and save him and God said:

"Who do you think sent the canoe, the motorboat, and the helicopter?"

Moral of the story? Get off your ass and use what God provides to save yourself.

So........... yes God will protect us... after all ... He sent us guns.

 

[Cypher]

I hear this lot that Jesus accepted sinners and prostitutes and tax collectors and much of the time this is used as an excuse by people who want to come to a church but don’t want to change anything in their life.

The truth is that Jesus did meet with the sinners but he didn’t leave them in their sin, He expected them to follow him and go out and spread the word. The Bible doesn’t indicate anywhere that Jesus condoned sin or preach a “do what you want and got to Heaven anyway” kind of Gospel.
The Bible also lays out some very specific rules for order in worship and indicates very clearly that the church isn’t about everyone doing their own thing as it suits them (and as a side note you certainly can’t have that in a sanctuary that seats thousands of people or you’d have utter pandemonium).

I asked a question (which most of you ducked) about who here actually attended church and since it appears that most of you do not let me share a couple of stories with you about things that I have actually seen happen in different services in my church.

Top of the list is, of course the guy that decided Christians were evil and tried to show us the error of our ways with an AR15.

There was the guy we found sleeping in the storage room who attacked the ushers when we woke him up.

There was the lady who stood up in the middle of service and started waving some homemade flags that were supposed to draw the “Presence of the Holy Spirit” and mind you this woman was on a “mission from God” and did not take kindly to our asking her to stop “God’s Work” .

There was the guy that stood up as soon as the Pastor started to take an offering and started screaming “Repent and believe in the Gospel” I’m not 100% sure but I think he thought any kind of offering was “of the Devil”.

Then there was the drunk guy (Jesus loves the drunks) that showed up with a “message” to share with the entire congregation in the middle of service. He was 1005 certain that God sent him and wasn't taking "no" for an answer.

I could go on but I think you get the idea.

In addition to the above we also receive what are judged to be credible death threats against our Pastor regularly so that’s another thing we get to watch out for.

This isn’t sitting in the back row of a 30 person church where you know everyone by name it’s more like keeping an eye on a small city with some number of guys.

As has been pointed out we can’t keep anyone from sneaking a gun into the sanctuary, the truth is you can’t even keep someone from rolling up in your parking lot and starting to shoot people all you can do is react.

What I can do is keep the disruptive influences to a minimum and whether you agree or not it has been decided by our church council that someone walking around our church openly armed is a disruptive influence. It has been decided (and again this is largely hypothetical because it hasn’t happened yet.) that the most non confrontational way to deal with it is to place security in close proximity to the person and talk to him after service. (again, I don't know about your church but people threaten to kill our pastor regularly and I don't care what the odds are no, we're not going to let you meet with the Pastor while opencarrying)

No one is asking you to like it, no one is asking you to agree with it I’m just letting you know that’s what is going to happen if you opt to open carry in my church

 

[webwitness]

My situation is a little different than those of you residing in the free(er) states. Living in New York, it took me decades to finally get a judge to grant me a full carry amendment to the restricted target/hunting license I've held for 40 years. We don't have open carry in this state but I carry concealed in church "religiously" (and everywhere else I go) and only the head deacon and the leader of the security team (and of course, my family) know I carry concealed at all times. Many of the ushers are law enforcement and some of them "print" more than I do so I know I'm not the only one armed. My particular function at the church places me in a good position to observe about 90% of the activity in the church at any given time so my presence is welcomed at least by those who know I carry. To answer your question after this long prelude, I would welcome anyone duly licensed to worship in my church, as our freedom, in my opinion, comes from God anyway.

 

[Bikenut]

Cypher ... I'm curious...

Did anyone from your church follow up and minister to those who created a disturbance? Like the drunk guy, the guy sleeping in the storage room, the woman waving flags, the guy who objected to collecting an offering, .... and perhaps most importantly... to the shooter?

 

[Lowjiber]

I think you're way off base. Are you pastoring a church, or making a political statement?

 

[tcox4freedom]

I am reminded of the following story when people say "There is no need for guns! God will protect me!"

A man was on the roof of his house during a flood and prayed for God to save him....

Along came a neighbor in a canoe who said to the man... "Jump in!" and the man on the roof said... "No thanks. God will save me"

Then a motor boat came along and the guy in the boat said..."Jump in!" and the man on the roof said... "No thanks. God will save me"

And then a helicopter showed up dangling a rope and the pilot said "Grab the rope!" and the man on the roof said... "No thanks. God will save me"

Well... the man of the roof drowned and when he met God he asked God why He didn't come and save him and God said:

"Who do you think sent the canoe, the motorboat, and the helicopter?"

Moral of the story? Get off your ass and use what God provides to save yourself.

So........... yes God will protect us... after all ... He sent us guns.

There is also the "true" story of John Hagee. He was preaching a sermon when an armed man burst in and came down to threaten him. Saying something like "Let's see your God protect you now"; he pointed a revolver at him.

Rev Hagee quoted scripture back; saying something to the effect, "this Word tells me no weapon formed against me will prosper!"; just has the man cut loose from point blank range; missing with All five shots!

If anyone knows who John Hagee is, you know that the BG missed a HUGE target! It's my belief that God sent angels to deflect those bullets and protect Pastor Hagee.

Personally, I do believe God can protect me without me carrying a firearm. (HE has protected me for years & years; even when I didn't carry.) But, I want to be ready JIC God ever calls me to raise my sword (and firearm) in battle or defense.


-

 

[Cypher]

I keep reading how welcoming and accepting your churches are and how just anyone that shows up is welcome to come and worship with you and I have to ask myself how true is that really?

If a person that was drunk and disorderly showed up at your church and disrupted your service by shouting hallelujah at the top of his lungs over and over again would you be “welcoming and tolerant “or would you try to quite him down or remove him from the service so that the other parishioners could get something from the message?
What if a practicing homosexual couple who clearly had no intention of addressing the sinful nature of their relationship showed up in your congregation every Sunday and flaunted their status in your face?

What about a guy that was sleeping with his stepmother?

You say you welcome prostitutes, does that mean you allow them to turn tricks in your parking lot?

Now if you tell me that you would allow this in your church I number one don’t believe you and more importantly would point out to you that your church isn’t following Scriptural principles.

Do a word search in the Old Testament for the words “cut off” and see just how many times God indicated that specific behaviors were unacceptable and unacceptable to the point that anyone who practiced them was to be removed from the congregation.

But Cypher, we’re not under Old Testament law you say and you’re correct. So let’s look at the New Testament where Jesus Himself gave specific instructions on how to break fellowship with a believer who refused to repent of his sin. (Matthew Chapter 16)

How about the Acts of the Apostles where Peter disfellowshiped Simon the sorcerer for refusing to truly repent. How about Acts chapter five where Ananias and Saphira were disfellowshiped in a big why for lying to the Holy Spirit one time?

1 Corinthians, Paul publically chastises the church at Corinth for fellowshipping with a man who is living in blatant sexual sin and specifically instructs them to disfellowship the man but to restore him to the church immediately upon his repentance. Paul also states that we are to have nothing to do with a person who claims to be a believer but continues on in a willful pattern of sin.

Throughout the rest of the Pauline Epistles Paul named specific believers who have been removed from the congregation or disciplined for various sins?
Are those examples Scriptural or not?

Unless you are reading a different Bible than I am there clearly are guidelines for acceptable behavior in a church as well as a process for removing members who refuse to adhere to those guidelines.

Nowhere in Scripture are we admonished to allow people to disrupt the service and keep everyone from gaining any benefit from the time of fellowship.
If there is a Scriptural precedent I’d like to see it.

 

[Cypher]

Cypher ... I'm curious...

Did anyone from your church follow up and minister to those who created a disturbance? Like the drunk guy, the guy sleeping in the storage room, the woman waving flags, the guy who objected to collecting an offering, ....

What I’m basically reading here is , once again, your church (that I know nothing about except for what I read in Wikipedia) isn’t doing it right and my church (which I don’t actually attend because all Christians who don’t do it my way are hypocrites) does it right.

To my knowledge follow up was made where possible but if we have no way of contacting you then we have no way of contacting you

and perhaps most importantly... to the shooter?

I would think that a forum full of self professed experts on my church would know that the shooter killed himself after being engaged by a civilian volunteer in the church

 

[Firefighterchen]

Open carry makes Jesus cry.

Sent from my HTCONE using USA Carry mobile app

 

[Cypher]

This thread reminds me of a guy that I ran into when I first started going to church (not the church I attend now).

The church used to provide van service to and from the local Comm. Corp. for services and we’d pick this guy up and he’d sit in the van and he knew all the right things to say, and he could quote Scripture and he would go on and on about how wonderful it was to be able “to fellowship with the brethren.” It was like having Mr. Rogers riding in the van.

Then one day he asked if I wouldn’t mind stopping at a 7-11 on the way back to Comm. Corp. before I could even open my mouth one of the other van passengers told him that doing so was against the rules and could get them all in trouble and Mr. Rogers instantly became The Demoniac.

He started spewing profanity and telling the other passenger to mind their own business and who were they to tell him and basically “*&@$ You!!!” Anyway, I didn’t stop at the 7-11.

A couple weeks later I pick this guy up again. When we arrive at the church he informs me that since it’s such a nice day he wants to walk back to Comm. Corp. So, I tell him I’m not sure what the rules are on that but I think if we bring you we have to bring you back but I’ll check on it.

Enter The Demoniac, who am I to tell him and “your church is full of hypocrites anyway” and basically “*&@$ You!!!” I’ll just walk back now. To which I reply, “I can’t stop you from leaving but so there’s no confusion you need to know that as soon as you cross our property line (out bound) we will call Comm. Corp. and report that you’ve left our property to protect ourselves from liability.” which of course earned me another round of profanity and threats and being told what a hypocrite I was.

There’s a certain type of “believer” (and this guy was a prime example) that is willing to play the game as long as everything goes his way and when it doesn’t tries to bully the church (because Christians are all weak) into doing it his way and when that doesn’t work he storms out and lets everyone in the world know what a bunch of hypocrites they are down at that church.

 

[Cypher]

Open carry makes Jesus cry.

I can't speak to that but I bet someone not getting the message because you chose to disrupt the church does.

 

[Bikenut]

Originally posted by Cypher

I would think that a forum full of self professed experts on my church would know that the shooter killed himself after being engaged by a civilian volunteer in the church

As far as expecting me to research your particular shooter incident... did you provide cites and/or links to the incident and I missed them? Or did you expect me to research it all on my own?

As for you to use ridicule with that "self proclaimed experts on my church" crap.... I've repeatedly mentioned that it is your "church" and y'all can do whatever you want there. I have even said that I respect that.
And apparently you missed my post a while back where I said I do not attend any "church" so I have no idea what you read in Wikipedia about what you think is my church (no cites or links)... and the reasons I do not attend any "church" are reflected in your posts about your church. Your posts have only reinforced my decision to not attend any "church" that has the attitudes expressed in your posts.

But all that doesn't even matter... because the thing that I really do not care for is shrouding an anti open carry prejudice under the cloak of "providing security"... and just assuming that an open carrier would automatically create a disturbance.

 

[Cypher]

As far as expecting me to research your particular shooter incident... did you provide cites and/or links to the incident and I missed them? Or did you expect me to research it all on my own?

I never mentioned that I attend any particular church by name, because I participate here for my entertainment not as a spokesperson for any denomination or church body another of your member posted a link to the New Life Church shooting and stated that I must be a member . In any case there is a link in this thread

As for you to use ridicule with that "self proclaimed experts on my church" crap.... I've repeatedly mentioned that it is your "church" and y'all can do whatever you want there. I have even said that I respect that.

You’ve also made repeated negative references to my church veiled behind “now if this doesn’t apply it doesn’t apply”

And apparently you missed my post a while back where I said I do not attend any "church" so I have no idea what you read in Wikipedia about what you think is my church (no cites or links)... and the reasons I do not attend any "church" are reflected in your posts about your church. Your posts have only reinforced my decision to not attend any "church" that has the attitudes expressed in your posts.

Again, “I don’t attend any church because they don’t do it my way but by God I’ll sure tell you how you should do it”

But all that doesn't even matter... because the thing that I really do not care for is shrouding an anti open carry prejudice under the cloak of "providing security"... and just assuming that an open carrier would automatically create a disturbance.

I hate to say this but open carry would automatically create a distraction (not necessarily a disturbance unless it was one of you guys) just by being there. Also please remember that I never said we’d walk you out then and there. I said we’d explain our policy (that’s within our rights right?) and ask you to comply after service and if you stated your intent not to comply we’d ask you not to return.

If you respect our rights to make that policy why do you keep trying to convince ( who has no discretion over it) me to change it

PS perhaps you can address my post 94?