Lessons Learned From Mr. Zimmerman.

[Kramer1113]

are you trying to tell me that you work in a job where you carry a sidearm for defensive reasons and you are not carrying with a round chambered?
All I can offer in response is that in a gunfight he who gets lead on his adversary fight usually is the winner, and that there are no winners or losers after a gunfight only a dead person and a survivor (hopefully I will be the latter)
Anyone who carries a pistol and does not have a round chambered is IMHO quite foolish

I ALWAYS carry with one in the chamber.
I was a Military Police Officer for 4 years, carried with one in the chamber then as well (1980-1984).
I currently use two different weapons daily. One is my EDC, the other my nightstand gun with CT light.
I chamber my round from the magazine in my EDC every morning while unloading my night stand gun. At night I un-chamber my EDC and re-chamber my Night stand gun.
Can I make it any more clear for you?

 

[Kramer1113]

I do not carry +1, I pull from the Magazine.
This means I do not have 8 in my 1911 and one in the chamber(My EDC)I load the 8 round magazine and then chamber from that.
If you read the post it tells you that I want the load off the Magazine spring.
Go back and read.

 

[Kramer1113]

Military; you also had a dozen other guys with you, and a rifle.

LEO; never seen or heard of a LEO that didn't carry chambered.

Or you were basically an unarmed security guard.

Military, I had a Dozen other guys with me?
Are you kidding?
I was alone in my Plymouth Fury III with a .45, shotgun and a radio.

 

[Kramer1113]

Read the very 1st post in this thread.

 

[XD40scinNC]

I do not carry +1, I pull from the Magazine.
This means I do not have 8 in my 1911 and one in the chamber(My EDC)I load the 8 round magazine and then chamber from that.
If you read the post it tells you that I want the load off the Magazine spring.
Go back and read.

Then carry with only a couple in the mag. First it doesn't harm the spring (your car sits on loaded springs 24/7/365) and mags are cheap, springs can be ordered for even less, wishing to hell that I had one more round in a L&D situation.

Never has anyone said I wish I had less ammo in my gun. (except subjects in the police state of NY when cops count the rounds in their gun)

 

[XD40scinNC]

Military, I had a Dozen other guys with me?
Are you kidding?
I was alone in my Plymouth Fury III with a .45, shotgun and a radio.

You said "on duty" indicating either military or LEO, obviously LEO.

And at what point did you decide "now is time to chamber", after a perp displayed their gun? At every traffic stop or call you felt uncomfortable? Actually a more likely cause of a AD or ND by repeatably cambering and un-chambering than just leaving it chambered and holstered.

 

[Bigcarlover]

That even on a firearm forum, there are still people that still blindly follow the media propaganda regardless of what facts later come to light. And there are some that think the goal is to prove innocence rather than guilt.

 

[maybejim]

Be very familiar with your State's laws regarding use of deadly force. Indiana's "Castle Doctrine" (not named that), does NOT authorize pursuit. While the whole situation is tragic, in my opinion, Zimmerman became the aggressor when he initiated pursuit of Martin, and if memory serves, the 911 dispatcher told him that police would rather he didn't pursue. Just my two cents.

There is no evidence that Zimmerman "pursued" Martin after the operator suggested it wasn't necessary. The evidence is that he lost sight of him, was looking for a street number as he returned to his car when Martin accosted him and attacked him. There was no fight, just Zimmerman being attacked attested to by his injuries and a witness that said Martin was on top of Zimmerman.

 

[XD40scinNC]

Here is a list of the recommended duties of a neighborhood watch captain from Harnett Co, NC, from the Sheriff's Office.

Develop a neighborhood communication system to distribute vital information to neighbors
pertaining to criminal activity and other concerns that develop in the area. This can be a
periodic newsletter, telephone tree, and/or a one-page notice that can be quickly distributed.
2. You are encouraged to arrange for your group to meet socially at least twice per year to
exchange information and renew relationships as well as to get acquainted with new
neighbors. People who communicate regularly will care more about each other and be more
willing to keep an eye out for suspicious behavior. The annual National Night Out (NNO)
celebration is one example that will bring your neighbors together.
3. A follow up Neighborhood Watch program should be conducted every few years or sooner
if specific problems are occurring in your neighborhood. This should also be the case if you
have several new neighbors. Call the Crime Prevention office to arrange for a presentation.
4. Encourage neighbors to advise you concerning criminal activity. It is the victim's
responsibility to contact the police. However, you can keep a record of break-ins,
vandalism, graffiti, and/or any activity that becomes a concern for you and your neighbors.
Provide this type of information to neighbors at your next block meeting.
5. Your position as a Block Captain does not give you any law enforcement authority. You are
simply the person who facilitates the unity of the group, distributes information, and
coordinates activities. The job you are doing is important and appreciated by the Harnett
County Sheriff’s Office, but it carries no authority.
6. Remember: Our recommendation to all citizens who see a crime in progress or notice
suspicious activity is to observe and report from a place of safety. We strongly suggest that
you not confront an offender unless you are in immediate danger. This applies to you and
your neighbors. We do not want anyone to get hurt or injured trying to apprehend an
offender or interfering with an incident other than to report the activity to the police. If you
or your neighbors witness a crime in progress or observe suspicious behavior, call 911
(emergency) or 910 893-9111(non-emergency).

Or this one sums it up nicely;

Remember, your position as a Block Captain does not give you any law enforcement authority. You are
simply the person who facilitates the unity of the group, distributes information, and coordinates activities.
The job you are doing is important and appreciated by the law enforcement, but it carries no authority.

from a development in AL.

 

[apvbguy]

Here is a list of the recommended duties of a neighborhood watch captain from Harnett Co, NC, from the Sheriff's Office.


Or this one sums it up nicely;
from a development in AL.

all that is good information, what does it have to do with the question of whether zimmerman felt that he needed to use deadly physical force to end the danger to his life?

 

[Kramer1113]

You said "on duty" indicating either military or LEO, obviously LEO.

And at what point did you decide "now is time to chamber", after a perp displayed their gun? At every traffic stop or call you felt uncomfortable? Actually a more likely cause of a AD or ND by repeatably cambering and un-chambering than just leaving it chambered and holstered.

You don't even read the posts do you?
Before you post one more stupid comment, go read.

 

[maybejim]

Zimmerman wasn't a member of that neighborhood watch group. In fact as I understand it they were not a member of any organized group of neighborhood watches.

 

[Kramer1113]

Then carry with only a couple in the mag. First it doesn't harm the spring (your car sits on loaded springs 24/7/365) and mags are cheap, springs can be ordered for even less, wishing to hell that I had one more round in a L&D situation.

Never has anyone said I wish I had less ammo in my gun. (except subjects in the police state of NY when cops count the rounds in their gun)

I carry as I please,as I see fit, and as I was trained.
Full Magazines do impact the strength of the springs when left in a full condition for a length of time.
You rotate magazines to retain spring strength.
You carry as you want to, I'll carry as I want to,OK.
How about answering the Original Posters question from the 1st post in the thread.
What have you learned from Mr. Zimmerman's experience?

 

[XD40scinNC]

all that is good information, what does it have to do with the question of whether zimmerman felt that he needed to use deadly physical force to end the danger to his life?

Because it put himself in the position, i.e. went looking for trouble. That is not what neighborhood watch is about and it sure as hell is not what defensive carry is about. Cops are the ones that get to do offensive carry, if you ain't in danger call one, don't put yourself in danger.

 

[BluesStringer]

Because it put himself in the position, i.e. went looking for trouble. That is not what neighborhood watch is about and it sure as hell is not what defensive carry is about. Cops are the ones that get to do offensive carry, if you ain't in danger call one, don't put yourself in danger.

REALLY??? Care to cite a code, constitutional passage or amendment that states that? Cops may be the ones who get away with offensive carry, but it is no more authorized for them than it is for the general public.

 

[FN1910]

Then how did the two become close enough for there to be a confrontation? The way I see it, if Zimmerman had stopped when it was suggested that he do so, and let law enforcement handle it, there would have been no confrontation. IF Zimmerman ceased the pursuit, and THEN Martin turned on him, that's a different story.

I see you answered your own question. From every bit of actual evidence I have seen and heard so far points to that happening exactly. The other scenario that you state has been assumption and innuendo, not factual evidence.

 

[apvbguy]

Because it put himself in the position, i.e. went looking for trouble. That is not what neighborhood watch is about and it sure as hell is not what defensive carry is about. Cops are the ones that get to do offensive carry, if you ain't in danger call one, don't put yourself in danger.

all irrelevant, the question of the trial is was zimmerman's life in danger when he pulled the trigger? if his life was deemed to be in danger then he is found to be not guilty if it is determined that his life was not in danger he will be convicted.
everything else is irrelevant BS.

 

[Bigcarlover]

I see you answered your own question. From every bit of actual evidence I have seen and heard so far points to that happening exactly. The other scenario that you state has been assumption and innuendo, not factual evidence.

Exactly. If you listen to the 911 tapes, Martin took off running. Z, when told "we don't need you to do that", said, "ok." His voice is not labored at any time, as one would be in a full run. He stays on the call for another 1.5 minutes after he says the "ok." That's quite a head start, if the assumption is Z raced after him when he hung up (and that still would be just an assumption). Unless he was on a Segway, I don't see it.

 

[BluesStringer]

all irrelevant, the question of the trial is was zimmerman's life in danger when he pulled the trigger? if his life was deemed to be in danger then he is found to be not guilty if it is determined that his life was not in danger he will be convicted.
everything else is irrelevant BS.

I'm confident that you understand the law, but the bold part is not stated quite right. It's actually irrelevant whether it was determined after the fact that his life was not in danger up to the point that he pulled the trigger. The threshold to legitimately invoke any self defense law is the reasonable belief standard, that the victim is in danger of suffering great bodily injury or death if the attack continues.

So the above would be stated accurately if it said, "If it is deemed that Zimmerman had a reasonable belief that his life was in danger, then he is found to be not guilty. If it is determined that it was not reasonable to fear for his life or great bodily injury, then he will be convicted."

That correction was not for your benefit apvbguy, but for the multitudes of people who can't seem to grasp what questions the jury will be tasked with answering. Obviously Zimmerman's life was not in imminent danger at the time he pulled the trigger, or he wouldn't be sitting there as a real live defendant. His right to pull the trigger is based on his reasonable anticipation of subsequent injuries or death if he didn't employ deadly force before that happened.

Blues

 

[apvbguy]

I'm confident that you understand the law, but the bold part is not stated quite right. It's actually irrelevant whether it was determined after the fact that his life was not in danger up to the point that he pulled the trigger. The threshold to legitimately invoke any self defense law is the reasonable belief standard, that the victim is in danger of suffering great bodily injury or death if the attack continues.

So the above would be stated accurately if it said, "If it is deemed that Zimmerman had a reasonable belief that his life was in danger, then he is found to be not guilty. If it is determined that it was not reasonable to fear for his life or great bodily injury, then he will be convicted."

That correction was not for your benefit apvbguy, but for the multitudes of people who can't seem to grasp what questions the jury will be tasked with answering. Obviously Zimmerman's life was not in imminent danger at the time he pulled the trigger, or he wouldn't be sitting there as a real live defendant. His right to pull the trigger is based on his reasonable anticipation of subsequent injuries or death if he didn't employ deadly force before that happened.

Blues

while you are correct you've offered an overstatement of the law here in FLA, in FLA under the castle/SYG laws an assumption is made that an assault, like the one at issue here, is always a threat to one's life. so if the evidence show's he was under attack from the dead person then the jury would be forced to vote not guilty.