Truth of the matter is we never know exactly how we will react until God forbid, we are put in that situation. I personally hope I never am and I pray that I never have to shoot someone. We all have and are entitled to opinions to what should have been done but again we were not the one being attacked, we do not know how vicious the attack was other than a punch in the face, and how fast it was progressing. Fact is the robbery should not have done what he did, the jogger did what "he thought" he had to do to protect himself and now there is a young man that is dead and a jogger that will have to deal with the fact that he killed someone, justified or not. :fie:
Good Conceal Carry Story!
- Thread starter buckslayer
- Start date
B2Tall
Stirrer of the Pot
There's definitely more to this story than meets the eye. There would have to be some serious mitigating circumstances. I'm guessing that Mr. Baker, the jogger, is quite possibly a senior citizen or he is very small and his attacker was very large. In Florida such things are taken into consideration. I'm very large and in good health....there's no way I could get away with shooting somebody just because they punched me and were attempting to rob me. Since the attack took place at night Mr. Baker could have said that he was completely suprised and acted out of reflex and instinct, not knowing how many attackers were upon him, etc.
Rocketgeezer
New member
Nice story, but its not cool to jump somebody elses thread on your first post:angry:
H
handgonnetoter
Guest
Well, looks like the 18 year old should have stayed home and minded his own business.
truckie011
New member
I just watched the vids from that link. And sorry to say this is no where near the scenario, of shooting someone in self defense until the gun is empty.
This shop owner clearly committed a murder. He got out the gun and walked up to the all ready wounded (not sure who originally shot him) punk and shot him five times in the stomach. So your comparing an apple to an orange on this one.
Dont be so sure. Robbery is a "forcable felony", You are justified in using deady force to prevent the commision of a forcable felony....
Florida code 776.012 Use of force in defense of person.--A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other's imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:
(1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony
776.08 Forcible felony.--"Forcible felony" means treason; murder; manslaughter; sexual battery; carjacking; home-invasion robbery; robbery; burglary; arson; kidnapping; aggravated assault; aggravated battery; aggravated stalking; aircraft piracy; unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb; and any other felony which involves the use or threat of physical force or violence against any individual.
B2Tall
Stirrer of the Pot
You're right to point out the robbery aspect but it's not "justified" until a judge (or jury, or DA's office, et.al.) says it is, and the first thing they'll look at is whether non-lethal force could have been used to effectively end the situation. Look at the original story - it says that the prosecutor decided that Mr. Baker won't be charged. "Decided" being the key word there. I can assure you that the size, gender, age, and physical condition of the individuals involved in such a case would be taken into account before deciding justification.
If some cracked-out 150lb homeless guy were to jump out of the bushes and start beating on me (260lbs) with his fists while demanding money, I would hardly be justified in shooting him, regardless of the letter of the law. Don't laugh...It's not so farfetched. In my line of work (bar/nightclub management) I've been in a number of situations where somebody much smaller than me has attacked me while they were under the influence of alcohol or drugs.
buckslayer
New member
Aww come on... You beat me to telling him he was rude for committing grand theft thread :cray:
Oh well, I guess that just meens I gotta check back more often. :biggrin:
S&W645
NRA Life Member
They ( defense lawyer ) say in the second video that no jury would convict him. I would bet that you could easily find 7 to convict with all 7 being CCW permittees. Even to the point of First Degree Murder. The pharmacist fired after the attack was over and did it in a calculated manner. If he had been afraid of the perp, he would not have walked right past him to get the second gun. Nor would he have gotten that close. The video will be his downfall. I'm also betting that the defense lawyer would try to get the evidence surpressed.
ClearSightTactical
New member
Agreed.
Situational comparison
It's interesting to watch this conversation from a Florida perspective. I will start by saying that I am not an attorney.
I have been told by reliable sources (my attorney and my sergeant) that in Colorado, when the kid dropped to the floor, he is no longer a threat UNLESS he deploys another gun. When the store owner shot him again while he was on the floor, it would be open-and-shut murder case. However, if the guy on the floor has a backup gun, he is still a threat until that threat is neutralized.
In the jogger case, I have been punched in the face dozens of times and am still alive (albeit crooked nose). However, if the jogger was significantly smaller in stature, and/or female, and or the attacker would presumably be a much better fighter, and/or there were more than one attacker, there might be a favorable case.
I am not a martial artist in any way. I was faced with a training situation where my partner was 6'2" and 325 lbs. I am 5'8" and 170 lbs. He was clearly a martial artist by the way he squared off at me. He definitely had a size/weight advantage over me. In scenario 1, he was unarmed and he tossed me around like a Barbie Doll. I would have been justified. In scenario 2 he was armed with a knife. I would have been justified. Any time you are faced with a gun and have no safe cover, you would (probably) be justified.
If anyone is interested, Google "Colorado Revised Statutes" and use the search box to go to Colorado Revised Statutes, then look up CRS 18-1-704 through 18-1-707.5. I say this not only for perspective, but also for travelers to Colorado.
It's interesting to watch this conversation from a Florida perspective. I will start by saying that I am not an attorney.
I have been told by reliable sources (my attorney and my sergeant) that in Colorado, when the kid dropped to the floor, he is no longer a threat UNLESS he deploys another gun. When the store owner shot him again while he was on the floor, it would be open-and-shut murder case. However, if the guy on the floor has a backup gun, he is still a threat until that threat is neutralized.
In the jogger case, I have been punched in the face dozens of times and am still alive (albeit crooked nose). However, if the jogger was significantly smaller in stature, and/or female, and or the attacker would presumably be a much better fighter, and/or there were more than one attacker, there might be a favorable case.
I am not a martial artist in any way. I was faced with a training situation where my partner was 6'2" and 325 lbs. I am 5'8" and 170 lbs. He was clearly a martial artist by the way he squared off at me. He definitely had a size/weight advantage over me. In scenario 1, he was unarmed and he tossed me around like a Barbie Doll. I would have been justified. In scenario 2 he was armed with a knife. I would have been justified. Any time you are faced with a gun and have no safe cover, you would (probably) be justified.
If anyone is interested, Google "Colorado Revised Statutes" and use the search box to go to Colorado Revised Statutes, then look up CRS 18-1-704 through 18-1-707.5. I say this not only for perspective, but also for travelers to Colorado.
S&W645
NRA Life Member
More info on the pharmacist story. Teen pled guilty to 1st degree murder but has an IQ of 72. Link Removed
And look at how the people on this site feel. http://www.topix.net/forum/tulsa/TC0AO16IGJ0AVKK2B Good grief don't they understand what murder/manslaughter is? Makes no difference it it is a bad guy or a good guy, but there is a difference between self defense and murder/mamslaughter. And while it might start out as a Murder in the first degree charge, in court at the trial it can be lowered to lessor included charges. By the court, lawyers, or the jury.
And look at how the people on this site feel. http://www.topix.net/forum/tulsa/TC0AO16IGJ0AVKK2B Good grief don't they understand what murder/manslaughter is? Makes no difference it it is a bad guy or a good guy, but there is a difference between self defense and murder/mamslaughter. And while it might start out as a Murder in the first degree charge, in court at the trial it can be lowered to lessor included charges. By the court, lawyers, or the jury.
truckie011
New member
That was the exact point of my reply to the video post. The store owner looked as if he committed a cold blooded murder. And based on that video, barring any other mitigating circumstances, I would have to vote guilty if I was on the jury. Though it may pain me a bit to do so. I truly believe we are a nation of laws, and at that point the store owner appointed himself judge, jury, & executioner.
S&W645
NRA Life Member
I agree with you. And worse, I've been there and done that as a jury member.
alonzo_rt
New member
glad he protected himself. I dont know about the 8 shots, it seems like anything more than 3 might not be necesary, but I wasnt and have never been in that situation so I cant judge him. I think the main factor if that were me, is if he kept punching him he could steal his gun, that wouldve been the main reason for shooting someone who is unarmed but still attacks you.
