Why OC??

[NavyLCDR]

I used to be a Guard/Driver for a Nationally known Armoured Car Company. Our Company Safety Officer told us many times that if armed robbers were going to hit one of our Trucks, they would do so with weapons already drawn and quite possibly firing at us as they did so. He went on to say that our weapons were basically just cosmetic, and to keep them holstered. Our weapons were there only to keep the honest people honest. I still believe what B2Tall said to be relevant - If your in a store and a BG walks in and sees your OC'ing you will be the first target, I don't care what you've seen on YouTube!!!

I find it hilarious that you have to resort to comparing an armored car robbery to Joe Citizen getting shot first in the convenience store robbery. Why? Because you can't produce ONE example of Joe Citizen getting shot first because they were open carrying. NOT ONE! Why don't you try to tell us next that these four officers were shot first because they were open carrying?

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Give me a break. The only place where Joe Citizen open carrier gets shot first is in the imaginations of those who are against open carry.

 

[B2Tall]

That's a big IF!

Is it?? IF the perp is determined to rob the place you're in for whatever reason and he sees your pistol (Why wouldn't he?? That's why you're OCing - so BGs can see it and hopefully be deterred) then you're going to be singled out for special attention. I'm not saying he's going to walk up to you and blow your brains out but you can count on the gun being trained on you in particular. He's probably going to want that nice, shiny Glock/Kimber/S&W/ etc. that you've got strapped on in addition to whatever cash he gets from the establishment. You're now in the worst case scenario - a BG (or 2 or 3...) with a gun trained on you demanding you reach over with your off-hand and toss the gun over to him. You now have 2 choices - hand it over or start a firefight with (most likely) bystanders caught in the crossfire. Ugly. Very ugly.

I agree that OCing wil deter crime much of the time, but if it doesn't you're now in a far worse situation than you would have been if you were CCing. That's what I'd be worried about. I guess I'll cross that bridge when I get to it. Until then, to each his own. If you feel more comfortable OCing then by all means do it.

 

[B2Tall]

Give me a break. The only place where Joe Citizen open carrier gets shot first is in the imaginations of those who are against open carry.

So if you were in a situation where bullets were flying you'd just shoot randomly instead of targeting the "other" guy with the gun??

Remind me not to choose you for my paintball team.

 

[NavyLCDR]

So if you were in a situation where bullets were flying you'd just shoot randomly instead of targeting the "other" guy with the gun??

And now, ladies and gentlemen, you will notice we have had to make the leap from Joe Citizen merely open carrying to an active shooter, again in order to offer lame justification of an imaginary argument that the open carrier will get shot first. You guys are a riot!

 

[B2Tall]

And now, ladies and gentlemen, you will notice we have had to make the leap from Joe Citizen merely open carrying to an active shooter, again in order to offer lame justification of an imaginary argument that the open carrier will get shot first. You guys are a riot!

I've already said that OCing doesn't mean you're going to automatically get shot. Go back and read my posts. As I pointed out in a previous thread, the vast majority of robberies with a firearm don't result in somebody getting shot.

Can you explain to me why you think a BG won't single-out an OCer in a robbery situation??

Again, when I say "single-out" I don't necessarily mean getting shot. Maybe the BG comes up behind the OCer and pistol-whips him. Maybe the BG puts a gun in the OCer's ribs and takes the gun out of the holster, maybe he tells the OCer to get the gun with his off hand and to put it on the floor, etc. etc. There are all sorts of ways a BG could react to an OCer. In any case, the OCer now finds him/herself in a much more difficult situation than a CCer.

Let me put it in a way you might be able to relate to, LT: You've just led the overthrow of our corrupt and repressive government and you're out hunting down facist government stragglers. You walk into your favorite morning coffee stop and you see 2 guys on your "Most Wanted Former Government Facist" list. One of them has a pistol on his hip while the other doesn't. Who ya gonna go after first??? Hmmmm.....who are you gonna point your gun at first??? (this is where you dodge the question like you have so many times before by telling me how ridiculous my scenario is or how I'm a traitor or how it doesn't apply yada yada yada...)

 

[Treo]

Is it?? IF the perp is determined to rob the place you're in for whatever reason and he sees your pistol (Why wouldn't he?? That's why you're OCing - so BGs can see it and hopefully be deterred) then you're going to be singled out for special attention. I'm not saying he's going to walk up to you and blow your brains out but you can count on the gun being trained on you in particular. He's probably going to want that nice, shiny Glock/Kimber/S&W/ etc. that you've got strapped on in addition to whatever cash he gets from the establishment. You're now in the worst case scenario - a BG (or 2 or 3...) with a gun trained on you demanding you reach over with your off-hand and toss the gun over to him. You now have 2 choices - hand it over or start a firefight with (most likely) bystanders caught in the crossfire. Ugly. Very ugly.

I agree that OCing wil deter crime much of the time, but if it doesn't you're now in a far worse situation than you would have been if you were CCing. That's what I'd be worried about. I guess I'll cross that bridge when I get to it. Until then, to each his own. If you feel more comfortable OCing then by all means do it.

This is speculation on my part but I don't see that the criminal has anything to gain by pressing the attack. Why do I want to hit the Quickie Mart on 8th where I saw a guy w/ a gun when I can just as easily go to 10th and hit the Stop and Rob?

There was a story that made the rounds on all the gun fora last year in which the eagle eye robber walked right past a guy w/ a replica Peacemaker on his hip and proceeded to try to rob the place. The Peacemaker guy ended up either chasing him out of the store or killing him I don’t remember which.

I notice when I see someone OC because I’m looking for it most people out there don’t even notice it because they’re too wrapped up in their own little world.

I don’t OC to show of and I don’t OC for deterrent value and I don’t OC to be the great RKBA evangelist. I do so because the Colorado Constitution affords me that opportunity and it makes my life easier at times.

Bottom line , if you can legally do so and you choose to OC go for it if not don’t

 

[B2Tall]

This is speculation on my part but I don't see that the criminal has anything to gain by pressing the attack. Why do I want to hit the Quickie Mart on 8th where I saw a guy w/ a gun when I can just as easily go to 10th and hit the Stop and Rob?

I agree that that's the most likely outcome of OCing but I'm not yet convinced it would happen enough. A pistol on somebody's hip is gonna be a nice prize to some thug out there. Now if half the adult population were OCing at any given time, the BGs would know that they'd be so outgunned that it would be suicidal for them to try something. We're a long way from that.

 

[MECHTESTER]

I am comfortable with both and practice both. I always believed how you carry is a personal preference. Main thing, concealed or open, is practice, practice, practice.... drawing and shooting when at the range.

 

[Lakeland Man]

DING DING DING!

Fighters go to your corners!

OK, new rule for this topic. Nobody is allowed to use the words "maybe" and "might" when referring to the actions of the BG. Instead, substitute the words "will" and "won't".

Like I stated earlier, we can come up with scenarios that COULD happen. Some states have had OC for decades. There have never been any cases (that I know of) where the BG has targeted an OC'er. Could it happen? Yes. Will it happen? Possibly someday. Is it worth arguing over? No.

I don't care if people OC or CC as long as they carry.

See what you've done. I've gone and started to repeat myself. Soon I'll be one of those grumpy old men sitting on the porch yelling at the neighborhood kids.

"HEY YOU KIDS! GET OFF MY LAWN!1

 

[NavyLCDR]

Some states have had OC for decades. There have never been any cases (that I know of) where the BG has targeted an OC'er.

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Open Carrier Arrested After Scuffle

Just before someone beats me to it. Like you said, though.... some states have had open carry for decades. We only have two examples....

Compare that to the number of armed robberies of individuals and/or places where there was no gun visible or where we don't know if there might have been an open carrier present or not because the open carrier was completely unaffected.

And to add a weight to the other side of the scale:

http://www.ammoland.com/2009/07/19/gun-owner-saves-lives-in-the-richmond-va-golden-market-shooting/

 

[acmariner99]

A lot of this has already been said. I prefer to OC whenever possible. Primarily for the reason that my carry piece is an XD .45. Climate, environment, and the specific situation will determine whether I CC or not. For example, Ill conceal when the law requires it like going to establishments that serve alcohol for on premises consumption here in AZ. Sometimes it is easier to CC in Washington because I've been talked to by LE, I've been asked lots of questions by bystanders, and ran into a person who was a special kind of crazy. Sometimes I don't want to deal with the sheeple and I don't want to come across as being confrontational or irresponsible so Ill conceal. And there are times a jacket or sweater covers the gun because it's cold. It just depends on the situation.

I OC because it is far more comfortable, much more tactically convenient, and I'd rather do what I can to stop a confrontation from starting rather than still be ID'ed as a possible target.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Sometimes it is easier to CC in Washington because I've been talked to by LE, I've been asked lots of questions by bystanders, and ran into a person who was a special kind of crazy.

Washington is getting much better as far as LEO training goes. Because we have had incidents in the past where the LEOs have gotten the smack-down, there have been many training bulletins issued to address the legality of open carry. The Washington State Constitution protects the carrying of firearms much more strongly than the 2nd Amendment does.

I welcome the interaction with bystanders, it is usually an informative, civil and intelligent discussion about the subject. But yes, there have been times when I have probable been a little too short with someone and have simply replied, "It's legal" and been on my way when I have been in a hurry.

 

[MECHTESTER]

DING DING DING!

I don't care if people OC or CC as long as they carry.

My sentiments exactly

 

[BruceGAtl]

My concern with the debate is that we will NEVER really know the side of the story that tells us how many criminal acts were actually prevented by the presence of a person OC. If the criminal saw that there was higer than expected risk and walked away.... there is no report of a "considered and rejected crime".
Conversely, we can clearly see the situations like the ones that NavyLT points to (btw - I think in the first it didn't make him a target but allowed the criminal a chance to prepare perhaps..., the second - well.. there's always a nut job to be found somewhere). My point is really that we have no valid statisical model from which to draw valid conclusions, mostly anecdotal references to support one-side and SOME cases of visible evidence to support the other. Maybe some day, Tom Cruise will find those precogs and we can get enough pre-crime data to create a good model.... but don't hold your breath..... or do...

 

[NavyLCDR]

BTW,

Here is a documented case of open carry preventing a crime:

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So, now the scales are even for what I have posted. 2+ open carry, 2- open carry.

 

[B2Tall]

I believe that OCing does deter crimes in many instances but the problem is when it doesn't it makes an OCer a big target. Also, I don't believe that any stats are kept about who was shot while OCing and who wasn't.

 

[NavyLCDR]

I believe that OCing does deter crimes in many instances but the problem is when it doesn't it makes an OCer a big target.

Where's the bodies to prove the theory? Where are the news stories of the OCer's that have been targets?

Also, I don't believe that any stats are kept about who was shot while OCing and who wasn't.

There may not be stats, but surely the media would be all over it...

 

[Ed Hamberger]

I find it hilarious that you have to resort to comparing an armored car robbery to Joe Citizen getting shot first in the convenience store robbery. Why? Because you can't produce ONE example of Joe Citizen getting shot first because they were open carrying. NOT ONE! Why don't you try to tell us next that these four officers were shot first because they were open carrying?

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Give me a break. The only place where Joe Citizen open carrier gets shot first is in the imaginations of those who are against open carry.

You and your gang of trolls have been watching to much YouTube Sea Biscuit...:to_pick_ones_nose:

 

[Gordon Shumway]

It's easier to avoid conflict than it is to survive it.

AMEN Brother. Discreation is the better part of confrontation.

 

[Gordon Shumway]

I can see many reasons for OC.

And then there is this type of situation.

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Even though CC and OC are considered by our circle to be a Constitutional right, not all of the public agree. Every situation relys on your common sense.

I absolutely agree.
But some people on this forum believe that no common sense is required. They just want to be cowboys and show off just so they can brag.