When To Pull and or Shoot

[HKS]

I'm not a confrontational guy. Anyone pushing a dare will get pepper spray first. I have a BIL that is a detective. I'm going to get his opinion and advice on some scenarios.
Funny thing today. I was at a fellow contractors shop. He asked me if I had my gun. He told me one of his customers was parked exactly where I was when a nut attacked his windshield with a pipe. He said the guy sped off and called the police. Made me wonder what I would do. I guess doing the same works. Of course, I'd rather pepper spray him and kick him in the head a few times.

Different states have different rules about defending your property from theft and/or vandalism.

You would be surprised how many do not justify using deadly force to prevent a car thief from stealing or vandalizing your car.

You need to check and see what your state laws say.

 

[bofh]

I'm not a confrontational guy. Anyone pushing a dare will get pepper spray first. I have a BIL that is a detective. I'm going to get his opinion and advice on some scenarios.
Funny thing today. I was at a fellow contractors shop. He asked me if I had my gun. He told me one of his customers was parked exactly where I was when a nut attacked his windshield with a pipe. He said the guy sped off and called the police. Made me wonder what I would do. I guess doing the same works. Of course, I'd rather pepper spray him and kick him in the head a few times.

You are setting yourself up for failure here. Why would you ever get in close contact with anyone voluntarily that poses a risk you you? Is your car windshield worth your life? You have no idea if the other person carries a firearm. Pepper spray him and you just might get shot.

Also, the use of pepper spray is technically assault. A kick in the head is aggravated assault. Over a windshield? I hope you have a good lawyer. You will need one.

Also, if the other person knows some MMA or is just stronger than you and kicks you to the ground, what now? Are you going to shoot him? This is exactly how people end up getting charged with manslaughter or murder.

What's your personal objective here?

You have clearly the wrong mindset. Property is replaceable, life is not!

 

[bofh]

I guess this video needs to be posted. Stupid is as stupid does.

Charges likely for shooter who killed Walmart shoplifter, deputies say

 

[maat]

You are setting yourself up for failure here. Why would you ever get in close contact with anyone voluntarily that poses a risk you you? Is your car windshield worth your life? You have no idea if the other person carries a firearm. Pepper spray him and you just might get shot.

Also, the use of pepper spray is technically assault. A kick in the head is aggravated assault. Over a windshield? I hope you have a good lawyer. You will need one.

Also, if the other person knows some MMA or is just stronger than you and kicks you to the ground, what now? Are you going to shoot him? This is exactly how people end up getting charged with manslaughter or murder.

What's your personal objective here?

You have clearly the wrong mindset. Property is replaceable, life is not!

The guy was a local drunk with a pipe. And, I did not say I would confront him. Having the option to pull away is my first choice.
I'm guessing you are against pepper spraying to avoid shooting first also?

 

[bofh]

The guy was a local drunk with a pipe. And, I did not say I would confront him. Having the option to pull away is my first choice.
I'm guessing you are against pepper spraying to avoid shooting first also?

You said that you would pepper spray him, which is confronting him. You said nothing about just staying away. Distance is your friend!

A pipe is a deadly weapon. Think about that for a moment. Pepper spray works best up close. It really is not a good option for self defense against someone wielding a pipe. If some one is wielding a pipe against me, I am likely going to shoot, as I would be in fear of my life. However, you weren't talking about self defense anyway. You were talking about defending your windshield, hence my comment.

I am carrying pepper spray myself and have used it in the past to escape an attack. I was surrounded by 3 guys. One of them was beating me up. I pepper sprayed all three, which created space enough, so I could flee. I recently changed to carrying pepper gel.

 

[HKS]

The guy was a local drunk with a pipe. And, I did not say I would confront him. Having the option to pull away is my first choice.
I'm guessing you are against pepper spraying to avoid shooting first also?

Speaking of pepper spraying, as some of you were, I personally do not like this option.

I don't like it for use against people and I don't like it for use against bears either.

My only nonlethal tool is my extremely bright LED pocket flashlight. It will easily blind anyone and anything. And if they cannot see they cannot attack.

 

[HKS]

On defusing a confrontation, most of the literature on this and also the cop on TV on the Justice Network (channel) all say the best thing is not say anything, let them do all the talking, until they are finished venting, and then apologize profusely, the more profuse the better.

Extreme profuse apology carries with it a note of irony and sarcasm which should make it clear it is just a superficial apology.

Even so, a superficial apology is normally what bruised egos are looking for and it soothes their ears.

"Never try and reason with someone who is emotionally animated." That's what they say.

So having been confronted a couple of times within the past few months, my experience is to back away and keep your distance interval (just like Bruce Lee says in his books), keep your eyes on the opponent, be able to draw and shoot from the hip very quickly, and let the other person vent.

The tactics for successful defusing and defense are very similar and go hand in hand, so to speak.

It always all starts by being situationally away, keeping your distance and not letting anyone into your safety zone, then maintaining a safe distance interval.

Pulling over in traffic is a huge mistake and practically a challenge to the other.

Arguing is also a challenge to the other and only makes things worse.

But like Eli Wallach (R.I.P.) said as Tuco in "The Good The Bad And The Ugly" -- if you're going to shoot then shoot don't talk.

 

[Reba]

Speaking of pepper spraying, as some of you were, I personally do not like this option.

I don't like it for use against people and I don't like it for use against bears either.

Why is that?

My only nonlethal tool is my extremely bright LED pocket flashlight. It will easily blind anyone and anything. And if they cannot see they cannot attack.

Are you sure about that? What if they don't look into the light? I don't trust the idea that if they cannot see they cannot attack. Attackers do have other senses.

 

[Bikenut]

I also do not care for pepper spray since wind can blow it back into your own face incapacitating you as much as your attacker. And if there are more than one attacker and you are hit by your own pepper spray you just gave the others you didn't spray a big advantage.

Not to mention that even with pepper gels if you have to struggle with that attacker any pepper on him is now on you and incapacitating you too.

 

[HKS]

Why is that?


Are you sure about that? What if they don't look into the light? I don't trust the idea that if they cannot see they cannot attack. Attackers do have other senses.

Well if they don't look into the light then they are not looking at me at all or their eyes are closed, so either way they cannot see.

An extremely bright flashing strobe light works wonders on people and on other animals.

While they are blinded I am backing away getting ready to shoot them if I need to.

You hold the flashlight in your left hand like a cigar (do you smoke cigars?).

And you hold the pistol in your right hand (if you prefer -- I am ambidextrous -- born left handed and made to switch to right by the teachers).

And you can complete your two handed pistol hold (called a Surfire Technique in the attached article) holding the light like a cigar.

Works like a charm. Then they are blinded as well as being dead to rites in your sights.

4 Tactical light techniques for concealed carry | The Daily Caller

 

[HKS]

I also do not care for pepper spray since wind can blow it back into your own face incapacitating you as much as your attacker. And if there are more than one attacker and you are hit by your own pepper spray you just gave the others you didn't spray a big advantage.

Not to mention that even with pepper gels if you have to struggle with that attacker any pepper on him is now on you and incapacitating you too.

Thanks Bikenut. I agree with you.

I had not thought of those additional liabilities regarding pepper spray that you mentioned though. But you are right.

My thinking is that I am not going to employ some spray can of something when my life depends on it.

For a human adversary, my 45ACP is going to be my deterrent and defender.

For a larger animal, my 12 gauge shotgun will be, loaded with magnum slugs alternating with double-aught buckshot. This would kill even an elephant at close range.

 

[Reba]

Well if they don't look into the light then they are not looking at me at all or their eyes are closed, so either way they cannot see.

An extremely bright flashing strobe light works wonders on people and on other animals.

While they are blinded I am backing away getting ready to shoot them if I need to.

You said "nonlethal tool" and didn't mention a gun so that changes the circumstances.

You hold the flashlight in your left hand like a cigar (do you smoke cigars?).

I don't smoke anything.

And you hold the pistol in your right hand (if you prefer -- I am ambidextrous -- born left handed and made to switch to right by the teachers).

And you can complete your two handed pistol hold (called a Surfire Technique in the attached article) holding the light like a cigar.

Works like a charm. Then they are blinded as well as being dead to rites in your sights.

4 Tactical light techniques for concealed carry | The Daily Caller

Yes, I know about that. But you didn't mention the gun in your previous post. You made it seem like you were using only a flashlight.

 

[Reba]

I also do not care for pepper spray since wind can blow it back into your own face incapacitating you as much as your attacker. And if there are more than one attacker and you are hit by your own pepper spray you just gave the others you didn't spray a big advantage.

Not to mention that even with pepper gels if you have to struggle with that attacker any pepper on him is now on you and incapacitating you too.

Thank you for giving your reasons. Those are also why I'm leery of using it, too, except under very specific circumstances.

I was just wondering if HKS had some other specific reason for not using it since he didn't say in his post.

 

[HKS]

You said "nonlethal tool" and didn't mention a gun so that changes the circumstances.


I don't smoke anything.


Yes, I know about that. But you didn't mention the gun in your previous post. You made it seem like you were using only a flashlight.

Dear Sweet Reba, former USN Chief Petty Officer ...

EVERYONE who knows me knows I carry my 45ACP with me 24/7/365 everywhere even to Catholic Mass.

I carry my pocket flashlight with me everywhere too.

 

[Reba]

Dear Sweet Reba, former USN Chief Petty Officer ...

EVERYONE who knows me knows I carry my 45ACP with me 24/7/365 everywhere even to Catholic Mass.

I carry my pocket flashlight with me everywhere too.

I wasn't questioning that. I just thought you posted a nonlethal alternative. Certainly not every confrontation you have requires a lethal response?

Please just call me Reba and show the same respect that I show for you.

 

[HKS]

I wasn't questioning that. I just thought you posted a nonlethal alternative. Certainly not every confrontation you have requires a lethal response?...

Sorry if I was vague. A good writer is always clear and concise. My bad.

About the only time I am not armed with my 45ACP is when I need to go over to a Federal building for whatever reason -- to visit the IRS or the Social Security Admin, etc. They have metal detectors and armed security at their entrances however, so it is a very level playing field inside.

That's the only time I bring non-lethal means only -- my flashlight. The guards always ask me -- "What is this?"

I say, "It's a pocket flashlight."

They always say, "Oh, ok, fine."

The BSA teaches you to be "always prepared" and the USMC teaches you to be "always faithful". So having been thusly trained and conditioned and brainwashed at an early age, I always try to be prepared and faithful in every situation.

So therefore if the power goes out I want to be able to see how to get the fokk out of that building, or any building. Plus it works well as a fighting deterrent.

My harness boots work well too. They can crush somebody's toes and feet under the weight of my 200+ lbs of trained and daily exercised body mass. I work out in the weight room every other day except for Sundays (which is for Church). I also jog and exercise (sit ups, push ups, pull ups) on alternating days when I am not weightlifting except on Sundays (remember what Sunday's are for ?!).

Plus I wrestled in high school and also won my first black belt in Shotokan in college by kumite -- competition.

So I am never really unarmed. The firearm is just a tool. The hands and feet are thus tools as well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kumite

 

[HKS]

...

Please just call me Reba and show the same respect that I show for you.

Since you are a bit (actually quite a bit) older than me, I would normally call you Ma'am, out of respect, as I do all people older than me.

But a lot of people don't like being called Sir or Ma'am.

 

[Reba]

Sorry if I was vague. A good writer is always clear and concise. My bad.

About the only time I am not armed with my 45ACP is when I need to go over to a Federal building for whatever reason -- to visit the IRS or the Social Security Admin, etc. They have metal detectors and armed security at their entrances however, so it is a very level playing field inside.

That's the only time I bring non-lethal means only -- my flashlight. The guards always ask me -- "What is this?"

I say, "It's a pocket flashlight."

They always say, "Oh, ok, fine."

The BSA teaches you to be "always prepared" and the USMC teaches you to be "always faithful". So therefore if the power goes out I want to be able to see how to get the fokk out of that building, or any building. Plus it works well as a fighting deterrent.

My harness boots work well too. They can crush somebody's toes and feet under the weight of my 200+ lbs of trained and daily exercised body mass. I work out in the weight room every other day except for Sundays (which is for Church). I also jog and exercise (sit ups, push ups, pull ups) on alternating days when I am not weightlifting except on Sundays (remember what Sunday's are for ?!).

Plus I wrestled in high school and also won my first black belt in Shotokan in college by kumite -- competition.

So I am never really unarmed. The firearm is just a tool. The hands and feet are thus tools as well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kumite

Thank you for the clarification.

 

[bofh]

I also do not care for pepper spray since wind can blow it back into your own face incapacitating you as much as your attacker. And if there are more than one attacker and you are hit by your own pepper spray you just gave the others you didn't spray a big advantage.

Not to mention that even with pepper gels if you have to struggle with that attacker any pepper on him is now on you and incapacitating you too.

Yes, both are risks of using pepper spray or gel. In addition, they don't necessarily help with a determined attacker. That's why distance is your friend and the concept of using pepper spray/gel as a weapon to intervene in a situation and putting yourself in danger is misguided. It is a last non-lethal resort.

 

[maat]

You said that you would pepper spray him, which is confronting him. You said nothing about just staying away. Distance is your friend!

A pipe is a deadly weapon. Think about that for a moment. Pepper spray works best up close. It really is not a good option for self defense against someone wielding a pipe. If some one is wielding a pipe against me, I am likely going to shoot, as I would be in fear of my life. However, you weren't talking about self defense anyway. You were talking about defending your windshield, hence my comment.

I am carrying pepper spray myself and have used it in the past to escape an attack. I was surrounded by 3 guys. One of them was beating me up. I pepper sprayed all three, which created space enough, so I could flee. I recently changed to carrying pepper gel.

I stated I would do as the guy that pulled away did, but that I would rather spray him and kick him in the head a few times.if I sprayed him, it would be from across the car.

I've ordered a spray that puts out a good foam spread. At least it did in the YouTube review.

https://youtu.be/PMpZCbM3lKQ
10:00 point
Multiple Pepper Sprays Compared