Whats the real Death Toll?

[CalicoJack10]

A Veteran is someone who has willingly signed a contract with the American People. This contract says that they are willing to give their lives in defense of YOUR freedom. And long after they leave the military, and have come home to their families, they realize that giving their life for your freedom is exactly what they have done.

In providing for your freedom, veterans effectively create their own prison. The cost of your Mocha Poop Swirl Late Crappacino is not $5.25 at Starbucks. It is measured by a cost that has no equal; it is measured in the cost of the lives of EVERYONE who serves this great nation. The prison that a veteran lives in is one that they will try and break free from alone, because they do not ask for help. It comes in the form of poverty that is so devastating that 1 in 4 veterans can't afford to eat, and 1 in 4 will attempt suicide, and even 1 in 4 will end up homeless at some point as a result of their military service. And those are just the ones that are "Lucky" enough to make it home. For the daft ones, that means that less than 25% of veterans who come home after serving will have a chance at a mediocre life if they don't end up committing suicide first.

The things you will never see are the dreams about friends and brothers that they could not save. Things like being kept from their children as a result of their "Honorable" service. The wives who can no longer deal with the pain the veterans feel so they walk away. The accusations of being a bad person because the veteran chose to defend your right to badmouth them. The weight of what they have been through that they will never share because they agreed to take on the burden of your safety. The freedoms that are taken away as a result of their service. The ridicule that is passed on by so many on the streets. The condescension by those who are better off because they chose not to defend you. The courts treating a drug dealer, or a violent felon with more dignity and respect than a veteran with no prior criminal record. The kindness and compassion for those who were committing these acts not 5 minutes before.

Veterans are those that have given their lives for your freedom, and even if you never see that they suffer in silence, they all suffer a great deal. The cost of your freedom is far more than you can imagine, and has sparked slogans like "For those who fight for it, Freedom has a price the protected never know." That is a burden they take on willingly, and would do again over and over to keep even one of you from having to suffer through what they live with every day.

So when you see someone who has defended you, remember that they did not make it home safe, they are scarred with wounds that will never heal until they have passed on, and when you reach out your hand and thank the guy wearing a Vietnam Veteran hat, you are not just thanking him for what he has done, you are thanking him for what he is still doing.

You Can Not Serve Without Giving Your Life For Your Country!

 

[bob16066]

Get over it dude. In the "Second War to End all Wars" we sent a couple of Million men off to War. Those that returned didn't Whine and cry about hard their lives were since they got back!

They went about their lives as best they could and didn't cry about how hard it was with the economy demobilizing from the war effort and the Women already entrenched in the factory jobs they wanted.

They put the war behind them and didn't cry about it.

What the flock is wrong with the yute of today that they expect the whole flippin world to kiss their butts because they Volunteered to Serve.

Get over it and move on.

 

[watchingdennis]

@bob16066

bob16066 I cannot believe your comments! Are you really that naive, oblivious or are you simply immature (due to being young)? I take it from your comments, referring to vets as "they" and "them", that you have never served your country in any branch of the military. As an Honorably Discharged vet myself, let me tell you that those who have seen combat, whether WW1, WW2 or any campaign since then, are messed up. A human being cannot go through that stress and return home the same as they left. When you join the military and see live action, ONLY THEN will you be qualified to express your negative opinion. Until then, QUIT TROLLING!

 

[Punch]

You Can Not Serve Without Giving Your Life For Your Country!

Bullshoot, and I get tired of hearing it. There are many of us who serve this country every day without going over to other people's countries and killing them. We don't have a draft in this country anymore, so everyone who has been to Iraq or Afghanistan (and now Libya) has volunteered to do so. Some of the rest of us have volunteered to serve as policemen, firemen, hospital orderlies, medics, utility workers, and other job classifications that provide a REAL and IMMEDIATE benefit to the people of this country. I will be honest with you, I can see no benefit to what our people are doing over in Iraq and Afghanistan other than to bankrupt our country and spread ill will among other nations. I do know what happens when I flip a light switch or turn on the water. I also know what happens if the garbage does NOT get picked up for a week (always due to my negligence and not that of the underpaid workers who do that disgusting task). We can pull all of our soldiers out of the foreign countries they are now in and the average citizen will not notice (unless they live near a military installation). However, if every policeman, fireman, garbageman, power plant worker, water plant worker, sewer worker, nurse, teacher and the like were to walk off their jobs tomorrow, I would say the impact would be far greater.

Yes, our veterans should be shown respect, but so should many other workers who make our lives more civilized. What I do have against the treatment of our veterans is the how our wounded and disabled are treated when they get home. From what I hear (and I don't have all the facts), they are not treated as well as some of us who get hurt or disabled in the private and public sector service jobs. That is wrong and needs to be corrected. Our veterans have made a contract with this country, and I think the country needs to uphold its end of the bargain since the veterans have shown their willingness to uphold theirs.

Again, I mean no disrespect to veterans. They should be shown respect and lots of it. I just don't believe that it should be at the expense of others who also serve this country outside of the military.

 

[wooddoctor]

Bob666 would wet his panties the first time he was shot at. I thank a vet whenever I can. Except for ******* like John Kerry.

 

[CalicoJack10]

For starters, if you haven't been there, shut your mouth.

Also, that is correct, there are a great many professions that deserve respect, but cops are not deserving of any respect at all in my opinion. It is the only profession in America where you can kill someone who is innocent and get away with it. There are some out there that are good people, but collectively, we all know that cops get a thrill out of the little bit of tenuious power they get and use it to screw innocent people.

If you seriously take this as a "poor me" thread, then you need to stop staring at your prostate and realize that it is the exact opposite. If you can't respect someone that is willing to die in defense of your freedom, then you should take your a$$ to another country and see what kind of freedoms you get.

What our military does paves the way for all of those other professions. Otherwise we would have things like 9/11 on a regular basis.

That's just what I think, and I don't care if you don't like it.

 

[bob16066]

bob16066 I cannot believe your comments! Are you really that naive, oblivious or are you simply immature (due to being young)? I take it from your comments, referring to vets as "they" and "them", that you have never served your country in any branch of the military. As an Honorably Discharged vet myself, let me tell you that those who have seen combat, whether WW1, WW2 or any campaign since then, are messed up. A human being cannot go through that stress and return home the same as they left. When you join the military and see live action, ONLY THEN will you be qualified to express your negative opinion. Until then, QUIT TROLLING!

Listen up. I have an honorable discharge and have carried my form DD-214 in my wallet for over 30 years. I'm retired now.

I did my time and I didn't whine and cry the way I see the yute of today who think they're soooooo special because their mommy told them so.

Big whoop. You served. So did I. So did a million other guys who are over it and getting on with their lives.

I'm still not gonna kiss anyones butt because they need validation. The modern army are all volunteers and they have no one to blame but themselves if it wasn't the great adventure they had anticipated.

For every one guy who came home messed up from the Wars to End All Wars there were Thousands who got along as best they could and didn't whine and cry and say poor me I suffered so much I need validation for my effort.

I use the terms "they" and "them" to disassociate myself from a bunch of whiny ass crybabies who think I should: "Appreciate" their sacrifice because they're special and give them a participation trophy as they wave their "stress cards" in the air.

Believe me: I feel for the guys who really suffered. But when it's over ya gotta get over it and continue to contribute to society just like millions have done since the dawn of time.

 

[Treo]

The real death toll is 1:1

1 death for every birth.

IMO the whole OP is self agrandizing crap don't know what else to say about it

 

[Treo]

Listen up. I have an honorable discharge and have carried my form DD-214 in my wallet for over 30 years. I'm retired now.

I did my time and I didn't whine and cry the way I see the yute of today who think they're soooooo special because their mommy told them so.

Big whoop. You served. So did I. So did a million other guys who are over it and getting on with their lives.

I'm still not gonna kiss anyones butt because they need validation. The modern army are all volunteers and they have no one to blame but themselves if it wasn't the great adventure they had anticipated.

For every one guy who came home messed up from the Wars to End All Wars there were Thousands who got along as best they could and didn't whine and cry and say poor me I suffered so much I need validation for my effort.

I use the terms "they" and "them" to disassociate myself from a bunch of whiny ass crybabies who think I should: "Appreciate" their sacrifice because they're special and give them a participation trophy as they wave their "stress cards" in the air.

Believe me: I feel for the guys who really suffered. But when it's over ya gotta get over it and continue to contribute to society just like millions have done since the dawn of time.

One of my best friends ( Best man at my wedding, Platoon sgt, A.A. sponsor and all around father figure) was a Viet Nam Vet. He wasn't drug crazed, he wasn't Rambo and he only really talked about the war ( to me ) one time we were watching fireworks and he talked about seeing his best friend get blown in two by a mortar.

Thing is he did his tour came back home and got on w/ life. Raised his kids, finished his military career as an SFC, got out and opened a chain of laundrymats.

The only time I ever saw him react negatively WRT to his experience in the war was one day in formation; our CO was telling us how much better trained and better educated and better disciplined and all around smarter we were that they guys that went to Viet Nam.

As the CO went on I watched my friend's (Only Nam vet in the company) neck and ears turn red his fists clenched and he began to shake he was that pissed but he never once broke his military bearing.

(Not Bob16066) Get over yourself

 

[PaxMentis]

While I think that sometimes people do get a little carried away with the "thank a vet" concept, I also think that some here are rather enjoying their sense of superiority and their denial.

I hear little whining from vets...and I have worked with other vets pretty much from the time I got out. The name I use online was the goal and motto of the group I worked with back in the '70s that developed the outline and proposal for the Vet Centers. I saw us lose over half the original team leaders in the centers to suicide...but I didn't see a lot of "whining". After college, I split my career between state police, federal marshall, state Dept. of Corrections and federal Bureau of Prisons. One thing I noticed in the "prison years" (working primarily with maximum security institutions housing people doing life or effective life sentences) was the incredible percentage that were vets...not just Vietnam vets, but Korean and even WWII...though that population was aging and dying quickly even in the late '70s and early '80s.

Back in the '80s there was a study done by the Israelis on PTSD. Since they have a population that has pretty much all experienced war, they were sort of the ideal testing ground. What they found to be the percentage of combat vets to suffer some PTSD symptoms surprised even me...100%.

I have to say I caught myself shaking my head when someone above spoke of a VN vet they knew who did not have problems and did not "whine"...and parenthetically cited that guy's accomplishments...including AA sponsor. The first vet I knew personally was a vet of Black Jack Pershing's foray into Mexico after Pancho Villa and later WWI. He was captured at Belleau Wood and escaped. He was also my Dad. He was a very succesful person financially...though he lost 2 companies in his career, he built 3. He was also a 50 year fifth a day alcoholic who died at the age of 68.

Today, in my little town, I know 2 guys back from deployments with their local NG units who are young hard workers...both have wives and 1 has a small child...both are also unemployed, in part because many businesses here just will not hire guys who are in the NG and could be called up for another deployment...and will admit that as their reason (privately of course). I can remember applying for jobs to help pay the expenses while I went to college on VA Voc Rehab and learning that I needed to "make up" a history to cover the years of '66-'70 because employers who would hire "kill-crazy drug addict Vietnam vets" were few and far between.

I'm not sure where those of you who speak of the "whining" hears it, but I am retired now and do volunteer work helping homeless and suffering vets of every war from Vietnam to the current actions and I see guys who suffer, but have held it together pretty well in general until the current economic situation and who hate the fact that they are having to ask for help...even from other veterans like myself who were luckier and more fortunate.

To be honest, I am uncomfortable when others discover I am a combat vet and "thank" me for my service...especially when I consider that "my war", along with most since then were mistakes. However, to minimize the sacrifice of those who answered the call and, as a result, have had to fight harder every day of their lives since then is something I find reprehensible.

[/rant]

 

[CalicoJack10]

While I think that sometimes people do get a little carried away with the "thank a vet" concept, I also think that some here are rather enjoying their sense of superiority and their denial.

I hear little whining from vets...and I have worked with other vets pretty much from the time I got out. The name I use online was the goal and motto of the group I worked with back in the '70s that developed the outline and proposal for the Vet Centers. I saw us lose over half the original team leaders in the centers to suicide...but I didn't see a lot of "whining". After college, I split my career between state police, federal marshall, state Dept. of Corrections and federal Bureau of Prisons. One thing I noticed in the "prison years" (working primarily with maximum security institutions housing people doing life or effective life sentences) was the incredible percentage that were vets...not just Vietnam vets, but Korean and even WWII...though that population was aging and dying quickly even in the late '70s and early '80s.

Back in the '80s there was a study done by the Israelis on PTSD. Since they have a population that has pretty much all experienced war, they were sort of the ideal testing ground. What they found to be the percentage of combat vets to suffer some PTSD symptoms surprised even me...100%.

I have to say I caught myself shaking my head when someone above spoke of a VN vet they knew who did not have problems and did not "whine"...and parenthetically cited that guy's accomplishments...including AA sponsor. The first vet I knew personally was a vet of Black Jack Pershing's foray into Mexico after Pancho Villa and later WWI. He was captured at Belleau Wood and escaped. He was also my Dad. He was a very succesful person financially...though he lost 2 companies in his career, he built 3. He was also a 50 year fifth a day alcoholic who died at the age of 68.

Today, in my little town, I know 2 guys back from deployments with their local NG units who are young hard workers...both have wives and 1 has a small child...both are also unemployed, in part because many businesses here just will not hire guys who are in the NG and could be called up for another deployment...and will admit that as their reason (privately of course). I can remember applying for jobs to help pay the expenses while I went to college on VA Voc Rehab and learning that I needed to "make up" a history to cover the years of '66-'70 because employers who would hire "kill-crazy drug addict Vietnam vets" were few and far between.

I'm not sure where those of you who speak of the "whining" hears it, but I am retired now and do volunteer work helping homeless and suffering vets of every war from Vietnam to the current actions and I see guys who suffer, but have held it together pretty well in general until the current economic situation and who hate the fact that they are having to ask for help...even from other veterans like myself who were luckier and more fortunate.

To be honest, I am uncomfortable when others discover I am a combat vet and "thank" me for my service...especially when I consider that "my war", along with most since then were mistakes. However, to minimize the sacrifice of those who answered the call and, as a result, have had to fight harder every day of their lives since then is something I find reprehensible.

[/rant]

Thank you for putting it in a way that I could not. I expect this kind of Crap from TREO, as I have sadly come to know him as an antagonist. But apparently the concept is lost on several others.

The number of people that seem to "Speak From Experience" seems to be a system of internet tough guys with no real background in the matter.

As far as the questions and statements about the freedoms that veterans have fought for, well, the simple answer is in keeping with those freedoms I have a right to tell people to STFU if I don't like what they are saying, just like they have a right to say it.

And for the veterans I speak of, I was there on 9/11 in service to my country, as well as in several combat zones after. I lost a lot of friends who also chose to serve. But most of them to suicide or homelessness (Freezing to death etc.) after they returned home.

While I personally believe that if you cant support our nations heroes, you should take your a$$ to Afghanistan for 6 months and see if you come back feeling the same way, I will also fight to the death to preserve your right to act like you do.

But along the way, I will tell you exactly how I feel about it.

P.S. Treo, when you do something for someone other than yourself, or even stop acting like you are 12, I will put stock in what you say. Until then have a nice life.

 

[Treo]

even in the late '70s and early '80s.

I have to say I caught myself shaking my head when someone above spoke of a VN vet they knew who did not have problems and did not "whine"...and parenthetically cited that guy's accomplishments...including AA sponsor.

To be fair my compadre will tell you he was an alcoholic looooong before he ever set foot in the Republic of South Viet Nam. Just as I had been sober 9 years before desert Storm rolled around.

That said, I too get uncomfortable when people I don't know "thank me for my service".

I get even more uncomfortable when some anonymous internet poster tries to make more out of military service than it is.

So again (not Pax) get over yourself

 

[Treo]

P.S. Treo, when you do something for someone other than yourself, or even stop acting like you are 12, I will put stock in what you say. Until then have a nice life.

Glen Frey says it sooo much better than I ever could

 

[father-of-three]

Like anything else, just be respectful. Like other groups of people, there will be those who succeed, those who grow, and those who get hurt, and those who fail.
It is easy to take things for granted, so it is important to be mindful.

 

[HDB]

That said, I too get uncomfortable when people I don't know "thank me for my service".

I get even more uncomfortable when some anonymous internet poster tries to make more out of military service than it is.

So again (not Pax) get over yourself

I and a good many of the males in my family, going back as far as I can see, are veterans. Unless you have experience with battle, blood and mutilation that comes from living to kill people or be killed, then you have no point of reference. The best book I've ever read about the hell of this is "All Quiet On The Western Front."
More than 40 years after I served, a young man thanked me last Veteran's Day. I didn't know what to think. I don't need the bulls**t validation or people praising me. But it took all that time for someone, anyone to say thanks.
You can talk about cops, firefighters et al who serve in dangerous situations, and they do deserve respect. Everyone does. However, they can simply walk away if it gets the better of them - they are civilians. A soldier cannot - they call that deserting. And (in my time) you could be shot for it, or at least go to prison.
For those young people (mostly men in my service) who gave some of the best years of their lives serving the country, did what they had to staying alive, I thank them right here on this forum. And praise and admire the fact they got home, even if missing some parts in the process.

My Army service is the most wonderful thing I would never want to do again.

The "...get over yourself..." crap is either from a nutcase or a wuss who never saw real fighting. Anyone who would say a thing like this deserves no respect.

 

[watchingdennis]

The "...get over yourself..." crap is either from a nutcase or a wuss who never saw real fighting. Anyone who would say a thing like this deserves no respect.

I couldn't have said it better myself!

 

[watchingdennis]

Listen up. I have an honorable discharge and have carried my form DD-214 in my wallet for over 30 years. I'm retired now.

I did my time and I didn't whine and cry the way I see the yute of today who think they're soooooo special because their mommy told them so.

Big whoop. You served. So did I. So did a million other guys who are over it and getting on with their lives.

I'm still not gonna kiss anyones butt because they need validation. The modern army are all volunteers and they have no one to blame but themselves if it wasn't the great adventure they had anticipated.

For every one guy who came home messed up from the Wars to End All Wars there were Thousands who got along as best they could and didn't whine and cry and say poor me I suffered so much I need validation for my effort.

I use the terms "they" and "them" to disassociate myself from a bunch of whiny ass crybabies who think I should: "Appreciate" their sacrifice because they're special and give them a participation trophy as they wave their "stress cards" in the air.

Believe me: I feel for the guys who really suffered. But when it's over ya gotta get over it and continue to contribute to society just like millions have done since the dawn of time.

all i read from you is blah-blah-blah, you are just trolling this board!

 

[Coopdog]

I served 20years. was in during 3 different wars/conflicts. my thought is...if u didn't serve, i don't want to hear ur opinion about anything involving the military. Yes u have freedom of speech (that I served to protect) and when u start to tell me whats wrong with the military; I have the freedom to not listen to an idiot. I was also a sheriff's deputy. We cannot shoot innocent people and get away with it. (another idiot) everyone is held to standards. does all follow those stanards? of course not. do not judge all by some undisciplined and unethical(sp?) people. Its just like I don't judge everyone on this website's forums by the uninformed, idiotic, and unsympathetic/unempathetic responses some of the members post. I am willing to have an inteligent conversation, any day, any time, any where, with anyone. It will be a battle of the minds. don't come unarmed.

i"m sure I'll get some disparaging remarks but I believe in my own viewpoint that has gotten me through 51 yerars...I DON'T CARE! if you can't come to me with solutions don't b***h about the problems. have a nice dayleasantry:

 

[mappow]

Sorry to break it up but I kinda of think this might be relevant;

Link Removed

My comments:
It's what America stands for. Strength with Honor and dedication to the American Way of Life. Sacrificing ones time and energy and unfortunately their life at times for the Freedom of all. God Bless all who has served and all those currently in harms way.

 

[wooddoctor]

Sorry to break it up but I kinda of think this might be relevant;

Link Removed

My comments:
It's what America stands for. Strength with Honor and dedication to the American Way of Life. Sacrificing ones time and energy and unfortunately their life at times for the Freedom of all. God Bless all who has served and all those currently in harms way.

Mappow, thanks for the link!