What If LEO Wants My Weapon During Traffic Stop?!

[apvbguy]

sorry My original numbers where way off... I adjusted them to be more realistic.., just looking for perspective... if NYC has 3,500 bad cops... that's a lot of bad cops. out of 35,000 cops... even if IM off. I still think the good guys outweigh the bad guys... again I am not qualified to give any real numbers... just offering a view by-the numbers... I still think the good guys , want to be good guys . I think there are positions within law enforcement to weed out the bad ones... proof is, you can see all the jail time bad cops get in Big cities and the number of bad cops indicted ... my eyes where opened in a simple search of the 40 million dollars paid out for wrongful police actions in just one year in one city.. and that is only the ones that went to trial... I still cant wrap my head around, so many Bad cops... Of course my personal life and my experiences have not been what " the numbers " seem to show...

I bet that you've never spent much time in NYC and you are most unqualified to even voice an opinion like this

 

[ArmyCW4]

The last thing I said, and I repeated it twice.. was : What do you do if the cops asks if there are any weapons in the car. do you lie, do you stand on your rights... do you tell him that there is a weapon in the car and you are licensed..

Sadly, I live in a must notify state but if it weren't the case, I would just state that there is nothing illegal in the car. Of course, if the LEO gets to see my piece (usually between my seat and center console) he/she might freak (usually the case with lesser experienced LEOs), likely the next set of questions will be about the spotted firearm but not to worry, OC is legal where I'm and I do have a CC permit.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Because one can frame the motivations of another as mere emotion if they are able to portray those motivations as "fear." Simple emotional responses are easier to dismiss than reasonable ones. Basically, they do it to avoid a real conversation.

Ok...so whose safety is enhanced by a person telling a police officer about their gun when they don't have to? Not the police officer's because the subject stopped would not harm the police officer with their gun anyway. Innocent bystanders? Nope. Because if the officer wants to handle your gun the innocent bystanders are in more danger. Then we get the "respect" excuse that people like to use for telling the officer about a gun. It's late at night, you walk into a convenience store to get a cup of coffee to get you home. Do you "respect" the convenience store clerk and tell them about your gun? The clerk just wants to go home safe at the end of their shift and they don't know if the person who comes through the door at night is there to buy a candy bar or rob them. What if when reaching for your wallet to pay for the cup of coffee you inadvertently expose your gun, the clerk sees it and shoots you with their own gun? Isn't that one reason people use to tell the officer about the gun up front? Then, of course, there is the hope that by endearing yourself to the officer by sharing your permit and gun with them you increase your chances of getting out of that ticket that you deserve to get anyway (which is why I believe that most people do it.)

Looking forward and standing by for more reasonable discussion.....

 

[ET]

I bet that you've never spent much time in NYC and you are most unqualified to even voice an opinion like this

Listen " Francis ". I never said I was qualified but as qualified as anyone else on this forum.... its conversation...its an opinion, with some numbers... No matter what even at 10 % the numbers of bad cops are staggering... I have friends in New York, who have lived there all their life... I've visited them , and according to them, there is no better city in the country... ON my many trips to NYC, it has always been a great adventure... Ive taken my children and grand children there... I've never had one single issue with cop and those who have lived there all their life and have also never had issue with Cops.
The petty attack " You are Most unqualified" is typical of the retorts posted on this forum... Like I said, I am, as qualified as anyone else on this forum.. If NYC was so bad, why would so many middle and upper middle class people live there? I live in the 5 th largest city in the country and in my 70 years of life, I've never had an incident with a bad cop, and not only that, I don't know anyone who has... I'm guessing that people with questionable characters and those who associate with those of questionable characters might have a different view of cops. If I had knowledge, that impacted my life about bad cops.,.. then I would adjust my opinion.. but 70 years of life is a lot of time to gather an opinion...

 

[ET]

Ok...so whose safety is enhanced by a person telling a police officer about their gun when they don't have to? Not the police officer's because the subject stopped would not harm the police officer with their gun anyway. Innocent bystanders? Nope. Because if the officer wants to handle your gun the innocent bystanders are in more danger. Then we get the "respect" excuse that people like to use for telling the officer about a gun. It's late at night, you walk into a convenience store to get a cup of coffee to get you home. Do you "respect" the convenience store clerk and tell them about your gun? The clerk just wants to go home safe at the end of their shift and they don't know if the person who comes through the door at night is there to buy a candy bar or rob them. What if when reaching for your wallet to pay for the cup of coffee you inadvertently expose your gun, the clerk sees it and shoots you with their own gun? Isn't that one reason people use to tell the officer about the gun up front? Then, of course, there is the hope that by endearing yourself to the officer by sharing your permit and gun with them you increase your chances of getting out of that ticket that you deserve to get anyway (which is why I believe that most people do it.)

Looking forward and standing by for more reasonable discussion.....

I've seen you use that same argument before about " You don't announce " to the store clerk that you are armed when you enter his convenience store... Your comment makes for very thin bowl of soup......
the reason?
when you are stopped by a cop, you are already a suspect... you either broke the law... or were a suspect in a similar car, and a possible alert for a murder or a robbery or some other crime. Its the cops job to check out, a law breaker, or follow up on an alert. If the cop stops you, he is already " ON guard "..

When you walk in a convenience store.,.. the clerk does not stop you, or goes on alert because you broke the law when you enter his store, so there is not reason to tell him anything...... So please don't use that " tell the merchant you are armed " when you enter his store to get a coffee, retort... An Official police stop, and a Mini Mart coffee stop have absolutely nothing in common.

Every time a cop walks up to a car, he does not know for sure, who is on the other side of the window, other then he broke a law, or is a suspected criminal, or in a car of similar description, who just committed a crime.

I think most of us have seen cops being shot, at a car stop, when captured by dash cam. That's a guy putting his life on the line every time he walks up to a car door, to try to keep the streets safe for you and your family. If a cop works the highways, he makes a few stops every day... if he works 20 years.. that's a lot of potential lethal situations.

A city cop walks into high stress situation daily, domestic violence, street crime, drugs, gangs, in an effort to make the town, or city they live in, safe for their own family. That's the reason most cop, seek that career.

 

[apvbguy]

Listen " Francis ". I never said I was qualified but as qualified as anyone else on this forum.... it

what are your qualifications? do you live in NYC? are you from NYC? do you know any NYC cops? it's called credibility and while you are free to babble any opinion you care to others are free to rip them to shreds when those opinions are as hackneyed as yours are.

 

[apvbguy]

I've seen you use that same argument before about " You don't announce " to the store clerk that you are armed when you enter his convenience store... Your comment makes for very thin bowl of soup......
the reason?
when you are stopped by a cop, you are already a suspect... you either broke the law... or were a suspect in a similar car, and a possible alert for a murder or a robbery or some other crime. Its the cops job to check out, a law breaker, or follow up on an alert. If the cop stops you, he is already " ON guard "..

When you walk in a convenience store.,.. the clerk does not stop you, or goes on alert because you broke the law when you enter his store, so there is not reason to tell him anything...... So please don't use that " tell the merchant you are armed " when you enter his store to get a coffee, retort... An Official police stop, and a Mini Mart coffee stop have absolutely nothing in common.

Every time a cop walks up to a car, he does not know for sure, who is on the other side of the window, other then he broke a law, or is a suspected criminal, or in a car of similar description, who just committed a crime.

I think most of us have seen cops being shot, at a car stop, when captured by dash cam. That's a guy putting his life on the line every time he walks up to a car door, to try to keep the streets safe for you and your family. If a cop works the highways, he makes a few stops every day... if he works 20 years.. that's a lot of potential lethal situations.

A city cop walks into high stress situation daily, domestic violence, street crime, drugs, gangs, in an effort to make the town, or city they live in, safe for their own family. That's the reason most cop, seek that career.

what a sad post by someone who is willing to give up the rights afforded to him, the sad thing is that people like this are not unique, I have zero obligation to make an agent of the government "comfortable" in the performance of his duties, if that agent has difficulties dealing with the pressures that are inherent in his chosen line of work he needs to change jobs, not transfer his issues to the citizens he is supposed to be protecting and serving.
Link Removed

 

[torontogunguy]

ASK! "How would you like to do this?" while your hands are in plain sight to the officer. IN PLAIN SIGHT. Make no assumptions and make no sudden moves. Swiss cheese started out as a solid brick before a traffic stop.

The law says that unless there is probable cause they may not search without permission. You do not have to grant permission. Also, the law says they may only search the area of the vehicle that is within arm's reach of the driver. The law says.

Personally, I would not mess around, I would follow directions very carefully and sort it out later. Period. If you are detained at a traffic stop you don't want to mess around.

 

[NavyLCDR]

I've seen you use that same argument before about " You don't announce " to the store clerk that you are armed when you enter his convenience store... Your comment makes for very thin bowl of soup......
the reason?
when you are stopped by a cop, you are already a suspect... you either broke the law... or were a suspect in a similar car, and a possible alert for a murder or a robbery or some other crime. Its the cops job to check out, a law breaker, or follow up on an alert. If the cop stops you, he is already " ON guard "..

When you walk in a convenience store.,.. the clerk does not stop you, or goes on alert because you broke the law when you enter his store, so there is not reason to tell him anything...... So please don't use that " tell the merchant you are armed " when you enter his store to get a coffee, retort... An Official police stop, and a Mini Mart coffee stop have absolutely nothing in common.

Every time a cop walks up to a car, he does not know for sure, who is on the other side of the window, other then he broke a law, or is a suspected criminal, or in a car of similar description, who just committed a crime.

I think most of us have seen cops being shot, at a car stop, when captured by dash cam. That's a guy putting his life on the line every time he walks up to a car door, to try to keep the streets safe for you and your family. If a cop works the highways, he makes a few stops every day... if he works 20 years.. that's a lot of potential lethal situations.

A city cop walks into high stress situation daily, domestic violence, street crime, drugs, gangs, in an effort to make the town, or city they live in, safe for their own family. That's the reason most cop, seek that career.

1. Police officer is not even among the top 10 most dangerous jobs in America.

2. In the ten year period from 1988 to 1997, just under 622,000 assaults and homicides were committed against police officers during 600 million total traffic stops. In those 10 years 688 officers killed during traffic stops. And the 600 million is only the number of citations issued over those 10 years, not actual traffic stops! In 2012 alone there were 10,322 people killed in alcohol related vehicle crashes. 688 officers killed in ten years while conducting 600 MILLION traffic stops compared to 10,322 people killed in ONE year alone due to alcohol impaired driving. And that 10,322 people is just the number killed, how many were "assaulted", meaning injured not resulting in death in drunk driving crashes? It's more dangerous for me to drive to work in the morning than it is for a police officer to conduct a routine traffic stop!

3. If it is so important to Officer Friendly to know about a gun that a person stopped is lawfully carrying....then.....wait for it......WHY DOESN'T OFFICER FRIENDLY JUST ASK?!!!!! If it is not important enough to the officer to ask, then why should it be important enough for me to tell them about it if I am not required to by law?

Seems pretty clear that real facts indicate that firearms and traffic stops are pretty darn insignificant - ESPECIALLY when we are talking about people who are legal possession of those firearms. "Officer safety" is a false mantra that was pushed through the courts in order to empower officers to have more authority to search and seize property without consent and weaken the 4th Amendment.

Because one can frame the motivations of another as mere emotion if they are able to portray those motivations as "fear." Simple emotional responses are easier to dismiss than reasonable ones. Basically, they do it to avoid a real conversation.

Sounds like a perfect description of people who like to try convince everyone that a police officer is such a dangerous job and that traffic stops are the most dangerous thing they do when the facts just don't match the claims.

 

[ET]

what are your qualifications? do you live in NYC? are you from NYC? do you know any NYC cops? it's called credibility and while you are free to babble any opinion you care to others are free to rip them to shreds when those opinions are as hackneyed as yours are.

1) Babble.... ????? 2) others are free to rip them to shreds when those opinions are as hackneyed as yours
Typical statement s from some Paper tiger member of the boys club... I entered this as an adult, trying to discuss a relevant issue. An some PUNK assed adolescent.. comes in with attacks on my opinion of the topic.. it's low life's like you who sit behind the computer and pretend to be a man , as if you are some sort of Patriot... I know what a Patriot is,, I've spilled blood for this country I've severed and I've defended, and your misplaced valor, does not impress me in the least... of course, I know you are trying to stir the pot with your " rip me to shreds," but you do it behind the safety of a computer screen... typical Punk, or schoolyard bully. Hardly a man in my book, but then you are in good company on this forum..

 

[Firefighterchen]

Here we go again....

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[apvbguy]

1) Babble.... ????? 2)

read this:
Babble | Define Babble at Dictionary.com

as for the balance of your nonsense, you are the one issuing challanges, do you ever get out of momma's basement?

 

[ET]

Here we go again....

Sent from my D6616 using USA Carry mobile app

What part of " I entered this discussion as an adult, to discuss a relevant issue " ....always to be followed with a member of the boys club to attack, with childlike retorts... Like You Momma's Basement..... my mother has been dead for 20 years.. but I do hear KIDS making" your momma " jokes all the time... Actors parady children's behavior by using your Momma jokes...
Never a rational or mature discussion.. When one of the boys says something as childish as " the members are free to rip you apart " is something a PUNK would say behind the safety of the computer monitor. I've been all over the world.. and the BOYS on this forum are not typical of the Men I've associated myself with in my life time.. the KIds here are like Cartoon characters.. those who play Patriot< those who pretend to be tough guys, those with internet muscles, and who, by reading their post spend most of their waking hours behind their computer screen on this forum, trying to make themself believe they have a life.


Yes Chen, here we go again... I post an opinion and get adolescent responses, from your crew... but there are some real respectful adult retorts as well. but those who are respectful, don't hang around for long.. your crew comes here just to keep those with opposing opinions, in the minority.. so most leave... I come here for the comic relieve and the understanding that , some people ( your crew ) are sad and pathetic and prove it every day by your endless narrow minded opinions.

 

[NavyLCDR]

What part of " I entered this discussion as an adult, to discuss a relevant issue " ....always to be followed with a member of the boys club to attack, with childlike retorts... Like You Momma's Basement..... my mother has been dead for 20 years.. but I do hear KIDS making" your momma " jokes all the time... Actors parady children's behavior by using your Momma jokes...
Never a rational or mature discussion.. When one of the boys says something as childish as " the members are free to rip you apart " is something a PUNK would say behind the safety of the computer monitor. I've been all over the world.. and the BOYS on this forum are not typical of the Men I've associated myself with in my life time.. the KIds here are like Cartoon characters.. those who play Patriot< those who pretend to be tough guys, those with internet muscles, and who, by reading their post spend most of their waking hours behind their computer screen on this forum, trying to make themself believe they have a life.


Yes Chen, here we go again... I post an opinion and get adolescent responses, from your crew... but there are some real respectful adult retorts as well. but those who are respectful, don't hang around for long.. your crew comes here just to keep those with opposing opinions, in the minority.. so most leave... I come here for the comic relieve and the understanding that , some people ( your crew ) are sad and pathetic and prove it every day by your endless narrow minded opinions.

ET,

The vast majority of your posts are emotionally laden opinion in response to questions asked or in response to other emotionally laden opinion posts. Why is that? It seems like you are just as incapable of engaging in fact based reasonable conversion as those who you like to accuse of being incapable of doing so.

 

[Gregmm6]

Ok...so whose safety is enhanced by a person telling a police officer about their gun when they don't have to?

No one, I feel. Why do you ask?

It's late at night, you walk into a convenience store to get a cup of coffee to get you home. Do you "respect" the convenience store clerk and tell them about your gun?

No. Do you?

What if when reaching for your wallet to pay for the cup of coffee you inadvertently expose your gun, the clerk sees it and shoots you with their own gun? Isn't that one reason people use to tell the officer about the gun up front?

It certainly is one reason people use to tell the officer about the gun up front. Why do you ask?

 

[CharlesMorrison]

No one, I feel. Why do you ask?


No. Do you?



It certainly is one reason people use to tell the officer about the gun up front. Why do you ask?

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Try it sometime..

 

[Gregmm6]

Link Removed

I am a strong believer in personal responsibility. You should give it a shot.

Anyway, what does that have to do with my post?

 

[NavyLCDR]

Ok...so whose safety is enhanced by a person telling a police officer about their gun when they don't have to?

No one, I feel. Why do you ask?

Because some people use the excuse of officer safety as a reason to tell the officer about their permit/license and their gun. You know, "Traffic stops are the most dangerous jobs that police officers do (statistically proven to be false), police officers have one of the most dangerous jobs there are (but not in the list of the top ten most dangerous jobs), and the police officer just wants to go home safe at night (doesn't almost everybody?)."

It's late at night, you walk into a convenience store to get a cup of coffee to get you home. Do you "respect" the convenience store clerk and tell them about your gun?

No. Do you?

Some people like to use "respect" as an excuse to tell a police officer about their permit/license and gun. Yet I have never heard a single one of those people say that anyone else deserves the same "respect". The convenience store night clerk, taxi driver and bus driver are three examples of people who are going to be in close proximately to the person with the gun and who have jobs that put them at higher risk than others for assault. I don't tell police officers about my license or gun and therefore have no need to use "respect" as an excuse to do so.

What if when reaching for your wallet to pay for the cup of coffee you inadvertently expose your gun, the clerk sees it and shoots you with their own gun?

It certainly is one reason people use to tell the officer about the gun up front. Why do you ask?

Because it is also a common excuse that the officer will freak out if they inadvertently see a gun, in fact those same people usually go to great lengths to ensure their gun is not detected by other people, but they will at first opportunity flash their permit/license and verbally expose their firearm to a police officer.

Because one can frame the motivations of another as mere emotion if they are able to portray those motivations as "fear." Simple emotional responses are easier to dismiss than reasonable ones. Basically, they do it to avoid a real conversation.

As you have shown by your responses, most of the excuses people use to inform police officers as soon as they can of their licenses/permits and guns (when they don't have to by law) just don't seem to have much basis in reality. Rationally analyzing the excuses shows three plausible reasons in the real world that people inform police officers as soon as they can about their licenses/permits and guns:

1. They are afraid of the actions the police officer might take if they don't inform them.
2. They put police officers on a pedestal worthy of more submission.....oops, I mean respect...than other people.
3. They want to prove to the officer they are a good guy; because, after all, who wants to give a ticket to a good guy when there are plenty of *****bags out there who deserve the ticket more?

 

[Firefighterchen]

What part of " I entered this discussion as an adult, to discuss a relevant issue " ....always to be followed with a member of the boys club to attack, with childlike retorts... Like You Momma's Basement..... my mother has been dead for 20 years.. but I do hear KIDS making" your momma " jokes all the time... Actors parady children's behavior by using your Momma jokes...
Never a rational or mature discussion.. When one of the boys says something as childish as " the members are free to rip you apart " is something a PUNK would say behind the safety of the computer monitor. I've been all over the world.. and the BOYS on this forum are not typical of the Men I've associated myself with in my life time.. the KIds here are like Cartoon characters.. those who play Patriot< those who pretend to be tough guys, those with internet muscles, and who, by reading their post spend most of their waking hours behind their computer screen on this forum, trying to make themself believe they have a life.


Yes Chen, here we go again... I post an opinion and get adolescent responses, from your crew... but there are some real respectful adult retorts as well. but those who are respectful, don't hang around for long.. your crew comes here just to keep those with opposing opinions, in the minority.. so most leave... I come here for the comic relieve and the understanding that , some people ( your crew ) are sad and pathetic and prove it every day by your endless narrow minded opinions.

My response was about you and apvbguy. Apvbguy hasnt been part of "my crew" ever..in fact he's not even an acquaintance since he attacked BC1 about his dead child and never apologized. Your life experiences hold no value to me.

Edit: I take that back. Your life experiences have shown me how I should not act, which is some value.

None the less, your response to me only furthers my original response.

Here we go again.

Just for kicks, did you ever find that forum review website? There are a bunch of us still waiting for it.

Sent from my D6616 using USA Carry mobile app

 

[NavyLCDR]

The law says that unless there is probable cause they may not search without permission. You do not have to grant permission. Also, the law says they may only search the area of the vehicle that is within arm's reach of the driver. The law says.

Wrong. The Supreme Court ruled in Terry v. Ohio that REASONABLE SUSPICION that a subject was armed and dangerous was all that was required for a search without permission. Until the officer has official confirmation that your permit/license is valid from the state or other government authority you are providing the officer with the reasonable suspicion that you are armed and dangerous when you tell them you have a gun. Police officers don't just assume that your driver's license is valid because you show it to them, do they? Why should they assume your handgun permit/license is valid just because you show it to them?