This ALMOST happened to me

[ggtgary]

and it disturbs me greatly, I am still trying to figure out what I should of done, IF I WAS THERE.

A pair of cyclist, whom I frequently ride with had this happen. I just happened not to be able to ride with them that day. I'm a CCW permit holder and keep a PM-9 in my handlebar bag while cycling.

My two friends were riding in a rural area when an SUV rushed in front of them and cut them off turning into a driveway. One of the cyclist made a comment in nature of "You think the jerk could of waited for us to go 10 feet and be out of the way" I don't know if any stronger langauge was involved. The driver took umbrage to this comment and chased the cyclist, cutting across the yard to do so and forced them off the road. He exits the car brandishing a slapjack. The cyclist who made the comment pulls out a cell phone and calls 911. Meanwhile the slapjack weilding driver approaches and knocks the cell phone out of the cyclist hands and also knocking his glasses off. Meanwhile there was a passenger in the car yelling "Johnny, get the hell back in the car." Heated words where exchanged until the police arrived. There was no serious injuries.

If you were on a bike accompaning these to cyclist, and armed, what would you have done.


Nothing to do with the question, just for the curious, the driver was eventually found guilty in muni court of misdemeaner assault. He was not initially charged, it took the whole local bike community raising hell with the authorities to get something done. This was helped by an independant witness who drove by, stopped, and saw most of it. I also discovered later that the driver had mob connections or at least did in the past. I imagine the publicity didn't make his bosses very happy.

“There are three types of men. Some learn by reading, a few learn by observation, and the rest have to piss on the electric fence to find out for themselves.” --- Will Rogers

 

[billwot]

... I am still trying to figure out what I should of done, IF I WAS THERE.


“There are three types of men. Some learn by reading, a few learn by observation, and the rest have to piss on the electric fence to find out for themselves.” --- Will Rogers

Well, I'll tell you what you should NOT have done. Based on the info provided, this definitely was NOT a situation that would justify deadly force. Pulling your weapon would have been a big mistake.

Perhaps going to assist your friend WITHOUT a gun would have been appropriate.

bill

 

[migm]

Really? Don't draw? I suppose it really depends on how threatening the situation is but from reading it if the guy swung a heavy object at my head I think someone drawing would be appropriate. That seems like self-defense to me

 

[ClearSightTactical]

Well, I'll tell you what you should NOT have done. Based on the info provided, this definitely was NOT a situation that would justify deadly force. Pulling your weapon would have been a big mistake.

Perhaps going to assist your friend WITHOUT a gun would have been appropriate.

bill

Why is this not a deadly force situation? The guy had a slap jack...that can cause serious injury including death. He even hit the guy in the face (it knocked off his glasses...)


if someone came at me or mine with it he'd have a gun in his face...


Slap jack

Black Leather Slap Jack Genuine black leather slap jack. It contains lead in the end for striking power! 11" overall.

 

[billwot]

Why is this not a deadly force situation? .

"Heated words where exchanged until the police arrived. There was no serious injuries."

JMHO

 

[ClearSightTactical]

"Heated words where exchanged until the police arrived. There was no serious injuries."

JMHO

did you miss the part of:

He exits the car brandishing a slapjack. The cyclist who made the comment pulls out a cell phone and calls 911. Meanwhile the slapjack weilding driver approaches and knocks the cell phone out of the cyclist hands and also knocking his glasses off.

You're making the assessment after the fact. Someone approaching in an aggressive manner with a deadly weapon is a threat, and should be treated as one...

 

[ggtgary]

<<< "Heated words where exchanged until the police arrived. There was no serious injuries."" >>>

That as why I am conflicted and I posted this. As it turned out, it was not a bad ending. However, it is not known before hand what that guy is going to do with the blackjack.




“There are three types of men. Some learn by reading, a few learn by observation, and the rest have to piss on the electric fence to find out for themselves.” --- Will Rogers

 

[migm]

I really think you would have needed to be there to assess how the person with the slapjack was handling that weapon and whether he was being threatening, approaching closely, etc. I still think that drawing wouldn't have been out of the question -- by the time he hits you with that slapjack its going to be too late to try and draw.

 

[2beararms]

I agree 20/20 hindsight says the situation ended ok, but if someone is approaching me swinging a blackjack in the direction of my head, I call that fear for my life a justifiable "deadly force" self-defense incident.

What exactly would I, or you have done ... more 20/20 hindsight so why speculate.

 

[rksap]

I agree 20/20 hindsight says the situation ended ok, but if someone is approaching me swinging a blackjack in the direction of my head, I call that fear for my life a justifiable "deadly force" self-defense incident.

What exactly would I, or you have done ... more 20/20 hindsight so why speculate.

Agreed

 

[RugerP345]

"Heated words where exchanged until the police arrived."


If I'm with another person, and that person is acting like an idiot and provoking the situation, he is on his own. He shoulda kept his damned mouth shut.
If he was riding his bike like you say and the incident happened without the victim mouthing off, then I would go to his assistance and draw my weapon.
My right to carry is too valuable to me to risk losing it becasuae a friend has a big mouth and the brady-jury thinks he provoked the attack.

In NC at least, the self defense defense applies only if the shooter did nothing to provoke the attack. For instance, if I'm walking down the sidewalk and call some black man a "nigger" and he proceeds to whip my ass, if I draw my weapon and shoot him "in self defense" then I couldn't use the self-defense defense in court.


The defendant cannot use the right of self-defense if he or she was the aggressor — he or she voluntarily entered or provoked a fight by assaulting the victim, through language or by being mutually willing to fight, or leaves the fight and then returns to restart it.







.

 

[kelcarry]

If the perp had actually started to use the baton on your friend in a very dangerous manner then, under the SC "alter ego" rules, you can assume that the baton was being used on you and that the assault represented an imminent threat to you causing great bodily injury or, in the extreme, death. Under that circumstance you can defend your friend with your CCW. If all he did was swipe the cell phone away---it does not IMO amount to an imminent threat. Certainly your comments about your friend doing his share of the provocation did not help.

 

[ClearSightTactical]

If the perp had actually started to use the baton on your friend in a very dangerous manner then, under the SC "alter ego" rules, you can assume that the baton was being used on you and that the assault represented an imminent threat to you causing great bodily injury or, in the extreme, death. Under that circumstance you can defend your friend with your CCW. If all he did was swipe the cell phone away---it does not IMO amount to an imminent threat. Certainly your comments about your friend doing his share of the provocation did not help.

I don't see how the friend provoked the driver. He made a comment to his other cyclist friend that was over heard by the driver.

If I'm at dinner with my wife, and the waiter is rude and I say to her

That guy is a jerk

and he happens to over hear it and want to fight did I provoke him??

 

[billwot]

Wow! I sure go outvoted on this issue.

But consider again: If he had been present, then there would have been 3 able-bodied men and one aggresor with a slapajack. I'm still betting the prosecutor and the courts would have considered responding with a gun to be excessive force.

bill

 

[rugerfan.64]

I dunno ,,,but I almost opened the door on a few of those "cyclist" up in Utah,,,,,you'd think they would give up a little bit of that white line when faced with a one ton truck pulling a 30 foot gooseneck comes easing by them. I wonder about those "cyclist" sometimes,,,,,,,:laugh:

 

[RugerP345]

I don't see how the friend provoked the driver. He made a comment to his other cyclist friend that was over heard by the driver.

If I'm at dinner with my wife, and the waiter is rude and I say to her and he happens to over hear it and want to fight did I provoke him??

I understood the post to say "heated words were exchanged", which I think is a polite way to say there was an arguement. If that is the case, then it was more than a mere remark. "That waiter is a jerk" (in my opinion) isn't "heated". "you're a f______g sorry ass waiter, I'm leaving you no f_____g tip. Go get a real job" (IMO) would be "heated". If I understand correctly, "heated" means you were basically mad and insulting when you said it Vs. just making a casual observation.

 

[DG303]

pursuing with the vehicle

When the driver drove erratically (across a lawn) to pursue the cyclists instead of yelling "up yours" or giving them the finger, questioning their sexual preferences or insulting their mama, it became a situation in which a reasonable person might fear for their life or safety. The cyclists were leaving the location of the dispute when the motorist pursued them. If someone pursued me with a vehicle (a potentially deadly weapon), and emerged from the vehicle with a weapon that can do a lot of damage to the head and face, I would probably tell them to back off and if they continued to approach, I would draw my weapon.

 

[ragifiro]

The driver took umbrage to this comment and chased the cyclist, cutting across the yard to do so and forced them off the road

Chase an LEO down with your car and it will probably end up very badly for you. A car is a deadly weapon. I would consider this "road rage."

He exits the car brandishing a slapjack. The cyclist who made the comment pulls out a cell phone and calls 911. Meanwhile the slapjack weilding driver approaches and knocks the cell phone out of the cyclist hands and also knocking his glasses off.

So after he has tried to run you over with his car/truck he exits and then pulls out a weapon and not only advances towards you but strikes you?

But consider again: If he had been present, then there would have been 3 able-bodied men and one aggresor with a slapajack. I'm still betting the prosecutor and the courts would have considered responding with a gun to be excessive force.

Consider all of the able bodied men who stood by and watched the teen get raped for hours in CA. Or all of the able bodied men who stood by and watched the teen get killed in Chicago. Just because you are with friends doesn't mean your friends will defend you. Look at all of the store robbery videos where the perp doesn't have a weapon and people stand there and watch.

Honestly this is a very tough call. The drivers actions clearly could be construed as trying to inflict grave bodily harm. Had you been present and defended yourself there would be tire tracks on lawns that he chased you across.

A blackjack in his hand that he exited the vehicle with after chasing you down. Those can and have fractured skulls. There is a reason most LEO are not allowed to use them anymore.Advance on an LEO with one in your hand threatening him/her.

I would bet that each part of the incident (trying to run you over/Blackjack assault) by itself would have a large percentage of LEO's drawing if not firing their duty weapon.

It's a hard choice as each has potential life altering consequences. Fortunately for your friends it worked out.

 

[kelcarry]

Hey CST: I guess we will agree to disagree. A rude waiter? In a restaurant? Is that the best you can do? If anyone has opened their mouth or made gestures to an obvious idiot in a potentially dangerous situation who is out of control, they have provoked the situation. I always try to remember that the original poster has "poetic license" in any and all of this forum's threads; not saying it did not happen exactly as stated, but he did indicate a response from the bikers, which did not help anyone, and certainly not the bikers. The fact that the baton actually hit the biker, if that actually happened, is certainly reason, IF you have all the facts, and therein lies a big problem with stepping into the fray. If it is the biker who has the firearm and there were no witnesses to the verbal/hand gesture response from the biker and he defends himself with a CCW, he is probably off the hook--if there were witnesses (and I'm not so sure of the extent of the words or gestures just because the forum writer says so) it can certainly look like an escalation that presents more problems for the biker. You've got a firearm, for heavens sake, and you can kill someone---you turn your cheek, you get away, you do everything but submit to bodily injury or possible death--you can stand your ground but if I am on a jury that is not good enough for me if there were alternatives.

 

[ClearSightTactical]

Hey CST: I guess we will agree to disagree. A rude waiter? In a restaurant? Is that the best you can do? If anyone has opened their mouth or made gestures to an obvious idiot in a potentially dangerous situation who is out of control, they have provoked the situation. I always try to remember that the original poster has "poetic license" in any and all of this forum's threads; not saying it did not happen exactly as stated, but he did indicate a response from the bikers, which did not help anyone, and certainly not the bikers. The fact that the baton actually hit the biker, if that actually happened, is certainly reason, IF you have all the facts, and therein lies a big problem with stepping into the fray. If it is the biker who has the firearm and there were no witnesses to the verbal/hand gesture response from the biker and he defends himself with a CCW, he is probably off the hook--if there were witnesses (and I'm not so sure of the extent of the words or gestures just because the forum writer says so) it can certainly look like an escalation that presents more problems for the biker. You've got a firearm, for heavens sake, and you can kill someone---you turn your cheek, you get away, you do everything but submit to bodily injury or possible death--you can stand your ground but if I am on a jury that is not good enough for me if there were alternatives.

Its the same concept. A remark that the OP posted was not aggressive. Just because you're carrying it doesn't mean you have to be a push over. If you were on a jury i'd be afraid. Especially since state law should dictate whether it matters or not if there are alternatives (duty to retreat)- which in my state there is none.