Road rage incident leads to deaths of 2 CPL holders....

[BluesStringer]

It was 2007 I was taking my daughter from Fort Jackson SC to Fort Rucker AL for AIT and it was in GA so more likely it was the 20, I didn't look at the map and simply relied on memory n use the 44-40 as my primary east west when I head out to my mining claim in AZ and had a senior moment.

I personally think it was more a "fantasy" moment, but whatever.

Yes they do respond, reported the story when it happened in the Defensive carry forum.

Where is the "Defensive carry forum?" Is it a sub-forum on this site, or another website altogether? Got a link for your "report?"

Bottom line is GA Takes their road rage very seriously I slowed down so I could watch what happened next....

You're getting ahead of yourself. You haven't told us what happened first, which, unless it was simply someone flipping you or your daughter off, is completely irrelevant to this exchange.

....as I had 911 on the car phone, and I greatly enjoyed watching in my rear view as the flashers come on when the guy in the Grey Honda did his BS in front of the GA state police.

So the subject-car was behind you. Were they following you after the driver had flipped you off? Were they tailgating? Were they flashing their high-beams at you? What was your report to the 911 Dispatcher, and if it was anything more than being flipped the bird, then why are you still continuing with this fantasy?

I still get a giggle from the incident...

I'm getting a giggle from it too.

Oh yeah I could have done other stuff that would have endangered my family, pulled the HK, ran him off the road but this was way more fun and entertaining...

Actually, besides being less fun and less entertaining, any of those actions would have been wholly illegal if all the driver had done is flip you off. Try to rein in your fantasy and stick to what reality would be if any of this really happened for nothing more than being flipped off.

In MI it is defined as "Agressive Driving" so go knock yourself out... Link Removed

The only possible mention in that link of anything like flipping someone off is this:

What can you do to combat Aggressive Driving?

Be courteous to other motorists and avoid non-verbal communication.

Absolutely none of that link references a code section citation for the question that was asked of you. I'm asking you to back up your assertion earlier in the thread that flipping someone off is a crime in and of itself anywhere in this nation, and if you still contend that it is, then quote the code that makes it so. You have failed so far. I know why you have failed, but apparently, you haven't figured it out yet.

Blues

 

[walt629]

I 911 anyone that exhibits road rage, tailgates, drives erratically, crosses over the fog line multiple times, drives distracted, keeps hitting the rumble strips or the rocks on the edge, flips me the bird, in short mess up and you will get to talk to the police...

I ride bike a lot and your bad driving habit's are not going to put me or someone else in the hospital!!

and yes the police take the road rage calls very seriously...:secret:

You need to park your car and give the keys to someone else for safe keeping.

 

[Sheldon]

Umm, where? It isn't mentioned in either of the statutes you posted. Try again hotshot.

Learn to read and not like a liberal either, it's ther on the MSP site, just is you may actualy have to do something and look.

 

[jcreek]

Umm, where? It isn't mentioned in either of the statutes you posted. Try again hotshot.

Learn to read and not like a liberal either, it's ther on the MSP site, just is you may actualy have to do something and look.

So you're saying its there on the site but not at the link you posted? So then may I ask what your intention in posting the link was? Like blues said earlier, it's you making the claim, not him or I. It's your responsibility to back up your seemingly asinine claims. I'm not about to go on a wild goose chase, digging through the state code book for a law that most likely does not even exist except in your mind.

 

[Sheldon]

So you're saying its there on the site but not at the link you posted? So then may I ask what your intention in posting the link was? Like blues said earlier, it's you making the claim, not him or I. It's your responsibility to back up your seemingly asinine claims. I'm not about to go on a wild goose chase, digging through the state code book for a law that most likely does not even exist except in your mind.

Humm violation of TOS??? maybe not everyone has an opinion wrong or not. You just have to look around a tad, no glance, and it's not there but you actually have to look...
Hint it is in the MSP opinions...

The bottom line? Any operation of a vehicle that is either careless or negligent and likely to endanger another or cause damage to property, or is in willful and wanton disregard for the safety of others, IS A VIOLATION....

Be courteous to other motorists and avoid non-verbal communication...

Remain calm and either pull over and call 911 or drive to a nearby venue to call the police.

Give the police as much information as possible.

Be a good witness, not a victim.

no that is not law but police do tend to enforce opinioins and make you prove them wrong.... meanwhile the rest is there just is you will have to hit a few keys, look and read to get there just as I did...

Just a couple of clicks away is Link Removed not MI state but it applies....

 

[BluesStringer]

Humm violation of TOS???

If making false claims and/or failing to document verifiable claims were a violation of the ToS of this site, then you'd be gone already. I don't really think either of those are violations though, and know without a doubt that nothing jcreek said is, so let's just settle this once and for all and stop with the asshattery, shall we?

You suggested earlier that flipping the bird while driving can be proven to be an illegal act by telling me to go flip off a cop and "see what happens." Well, I don't have to do that because someone already has and the 2nd Circuit Court of Appeals has ruled that the cop acted illegally for arresting and charging the flipper-offer with disorderly conduct. And just exactly like I said to you, the conviction was overturned on appeal because the flipper-offer had the 1st Amendment right to express what he thought of the cop, among other rulings of asshattery by the cop.

Here's the ruling that was decided in January of this year.

Link Removed of the case from beginning to end that was published on FindLaw.com shortly after that ruling was made, along with a couple of salient quotes below.

At this point, we should all be familiar with the general proposition that citizens are well within their rights to casually flip the bird to whomever they please, whether the recipient is a police officer or fans at a sporting event. Police officers should especially be familiar with the gesture after a series of stories of Link Removed.

That last link goes to an article chronicling an even earlier ruling (2009) on the exact same issue, middle finger, cop, illegal arrest, appeal, win for flipper-offer in federal court.

More from the 2013 ruling summary:

John, and his wife were driving along when John was alerted to the presence of a police officer by his radar detector. Unappreciative of Officer Insogna's efforts to enforce speed limits, he responded by flipping the bird to the parked officer. Insogna then followed the couple to their destination and effected a traffic stop. John then asked to speak with the officer and when denied, stated "I feel like an ass." He was then arrested for disorderly conduct.

So John was illegally stopped (seized) for flipping the cop off, but actually arrested on a phony disturbing the peace charge for calling himself an "ass."

More from the summary:

Though there was some dispute as to whether the officer initiated the stop or merely caught them after they arrived at their destination, the Second Circuit pointed out that it really didn't matter - a traffic stop and a stop of two pedestrians are still seizures for the purpose of the Fourth Amendment and still require reasonable suspicion of criminal activity.

The bold words that the 2nd Circuit used clearly state that neither the flip-off nor the word "ass" in a self-deprecatory utterance were criminal activity.

So the ruling of the 2nd Circuit Court of Appeals is Sheldon, that you're out of gas on this topic. If you call the cops for nothing more than being flipped off and report that alone as an act of road rage, you are making a false report, and if the person who flipped you off knows how to search the internet and find out that it was illegal for you to have made that report like I just did, they will get your name in the discovery from the prosecution when they fight whatever bogus charge the cops decide to foist upon them. They will then sue the pants off of you, the cop, the City/County that arrested, charged and prosecuted them, and they will win with the 2nd Circuit being their #1 witness (as precedent) for the defense.

Now, I only cited the 2nd Circuit here. It wouldn't surprise me in the least to find that similar rulings can be found in all 13 Circuits, and perhaps even the Supreme Court. I just clicked on the very first link after searching for "flipping the bird and the law." In that one link, there are links to two other similar cases, both holding the same truism: The 1st Amendment protects a citizen's right to express themselves, even if the expression might be insulting and/or profane, even if the expression is directed towards a cop (with some restrictions in that case, but none of them relating to a simple flipping of the bird towards cops), and even if the bird was flipped unprovoked.

The above is how you document a claim you're making, Sheldon, with links and citations that are verifiably true and accurate.

Next.

Blues

 

[JCliff]

Follow up article to the OP:
.
Mother who witnessed fatal road rage shootout says other driver followed car, shot first | MLive.com
.
See nogod's assessment under the general category.

 

[BluesStringer]

Follow up article to the OP:
.
Mother who witnessed fatal road rage shootout says other driver followed car, shot first | MLive.com

From this piece:

Investigators have not confirmed Bernadine Pullum's account of the encounter.

She is an eye witness. Seems to me unless there are a bunch of witnesses giving contradictory statements, they're going to have to accept, or "confirm," that her account is legitimate. Not that it matters much in a criminal legal sense because both shooters are dead and I don't imagine that any passengers from either vehicle will face criminal charges, but it certainly may be relevant in any civil actions that come out of this who was the aggressor. Sounds to me, if Mom is to be believed, to be exactly what I said in my first post - one driver actin' a' fool and the other trying to get away from him. Mom's story certainly seems plausible to me.

See nogod's assessment under the general category.

Thanks for the heads-up. I'll make sure to avoid his assessment next time I enter the General forum. LOL

Blues

ETA: Well, OK, gotta eat my words and cop to knee-jerk prejudice against nogods. He said nothing I disagree with in his General forum assessment after providing the above link. Still gotta "LOL" him though because it seems so funny that he might actually get something right. LOL Sorry, couldn't resist. Hopefully he has a sense of humor somewhere in the deep, dark recesses of his umm.....soul?

 

[mappow]

This is one of the few documented cases in which a CPL holder has been involved in a crime here in Michigan. No one knows what happened while they were driving, but both men got out of their vehicles, got into an argument, and then shot each other dead. Both were apparently MI CPL holders. 43 and 56 years old.

Of course, this single event is exactly what the gun grabbers were waiting for to justify their argument that CPL holders are just waiting for the chance to cook off shots at someone. We'll conveniently ignore the fact that according to MI crime statistics (which I have been monitoring for years), such events involving CPL holders are so rare as to be statistically non-existent.

Link Removed

Just because they have a License doesn't mean there not stupid. But you're right about the gun grabbers. Here's another stupid story about someone with a commercial pilots license: Link Removed

 

[jcreek]

Just because they have a License doesn't mean there not stupid. But you're right about the gun grabbers. Here's another stupid story about someone with a commercial pilots license: Link Removed

Wow. As a licensed pilot myself (albeit only private) this is scary. It's also scary that the UK has a threshold for alcohol consumption for commercial pilots. In the US the legal limit is 0 for any type of pilot. If fact, it's a federal crime to consume any alcohol within 8 hours of flight as a private pilot, 12 hours as a commercial (cargo or shuttle pilot), and 24 hours as an airline transport pilot (carrying 50 or more passengers).

 

[Sheldon]

If making false claims and/or failing to document verifiable claims were a violation of the ToS of this site, then you'd be gone already. I don't really think either of those are violations though, and know without a doubt that nothing jcreek said is, so let's just settle this once and for all and stop with the asshattery, shall we?

You suggested earlier that flipping the bird while driving can be proven to be an illegal act by telling me to go flip off a cop and "see what happens." Well, I don't have to do that because someone already has and the 2nd Circuit Court of Appeals has ruled that the cop acted illegally for arresting and charging the flipper-offer with disorderly conduct. And just exactly like I said to you, the conviction was overturned on appeal because the flipper-offer had the 1st Amendment right to express what he thought of the cop, among other rulings of asshattery by the cop.

Here's the ruling that was decided in January of this year.

Link Removed of the case from beginning to end that was published on FindLaw.com shortly after that ruling was made, along with a couple of salient quotes below.



That last link goes to an article chronicling an even earlier ruling (2009) on the exact same issue, middle finger, cop, illegal arrest, appeal, win for flipper-offer in federal court.

More from the 2013 ruling summary:



So John was illegally stopped (seized) for flipping the cop off, but actually arrested on a phony disturbing the peace charge for calling himself an "ass."

More from the summary:



The bold words that the 2nd Circuit used clearly state that neither the flip-off nor the word "ass" in a self-deprecatory utterance were criminal activity.

So the ruling of the 2nd Circuit Court of Appeals is Sheldon, that you're out of gas on this topic. If you call the cops for nothing more than being flipped off and report that alone as an act of road rage, you are making a false report, and if the person who flipped you off knows how to search the internet and find out that it was illegal for you to have made that report like I just did, they will get your name in the discovery from the prosecution when they fight whatever bogus charge the cops decide to foist upon them. They will then sue the pants off of you, the cop, the City/County that arrested, charged and prosecuted them, and they will win with the 2nd Circuit being their #1 witness (as precedent) for the defense.

Now, I only cited the 2nd Circuit here. It wouldn't surprise me in the least to find that similar rulings can be found in all 13 Circuits, and perhaps even the Supreme Court. I just clicked on the very first link after searching for "flipping the bird and the law." In that one link, there are links to two other similar cases, both holding the same truism: The 1st Amendment protects a citizen's right to express themselves, even if the expression might be insulting and/or profane, even if the expression is directed towards a cop (with some restrictions in that case, but none of them relating to a simple flipping of the bird towards cops), and even if the bird was flipped unprovoked.

The above is how you document a claim you're making, Sheldon, with links and citations that are verifiably true and accurate.

Next.

Blues

Most Interesting story, it's defiantly not a criminal activity but there are other issues at hand when it involves "Aggressive driving". As as we all know laws vary widely depending on state, county, and city, heck I would be willing to bet someplace it is some kind of civil infraction for passing gas in the presence of a officer of the law..
Not to mention how may of us have read stories WRT guns of judges rendering personal opinion other than law, and we all know that would / could never happen in other cases...

Wow. As a licensed pilot myself (albeit only private) this is scary. It's also scary that the UK has a threshold for alcohol consumption for commercial pilots. In the US the legal limit is 0 for any type of pilot. If fact, it's a federal crime to consume any alcohol within 8 hours of flight as a private pilot, 12 hours as a commercial (cargo or shuttle pilot), and 24 hours as an airline transport pilot (carrying 50 or more passengers).

+1 taking of prescription drugs, or even non prescription is regulated for pilots, heck I bet even energy drinks are on the FAA watch list..

 

[JCliff]

Wow. As a licensed pilot myself (albeit only private) this is scary. It's also scary that the UK has a threshold for alcohol consumption for commercial pilots. In the US the legal limit is 0 for any type of pilot. If fact, it's a federal crime to consume any alcohol within 8 hours of flight as a private pilot, 12 hours as a commercial (cargo or shuttle pilot), and 24 hours as an airline transport pilot (carrying 50 or more passengers).

.
This is incorrect. Title 14 CFR 91.17 reads:
.
§ 91.17 Alcohol or drugs.
(a) No person may act or attempt to
act as a crewmember of a civil aircraft—
(1) Within 8 hours after the consumption of any alcoholic beverage;
(2) While under the influence of alcohol;
(3) While using any drug that affects
the person’s faculties in any way contrary to safety; or
(4) While having an alcohol concentration of 0.04 or greater in a blood
or breath specimen. Alcohol concentration means grams of alcohol per deciliter of blood or grams of alcohol per
210 liters of breath.
.
This includes airline transport pilots flying for commercial airlines. Most airlines that I am aware of have stricter company policies with respect to alcohol use. The airline's operating certificate includes an FAA approval of it's operating procedures, and crewmember alcohol & drug policies fall under that requirement. So if you bust your company's stricter policy, you have also busted with the FAA.

 

[jcreek]

I was unaware that we had a limit too. I know the FARs word it differently than that but since I haven't flown (or read the FARs) in about 3 years due to the cost, I'm a little rusty. I was pretty sure the 24 hours for ATP was federal regs and not just company policy but I could be wrong.

 

[BluesStringer]

Most Interesting story...

What do you mean by "story?" I didn't tell a "story," I documented what I had to say with a court case, which refutes your story that flipping somebody off, even a cop, is "road rage, pure plane [sic] and simple." Now you're calling my documentation a "story?" I've implied it before, but now I'm going to say it outright, you make it obvious in this thread why (apparently) so many people flip you off.

it's defiantly not a criminal activity but there are other issues at hand when it involves "Aggressive driving".

Nope, not gonna let you get away with that. The issue wasn't "aggressive driving," it was, and since you won't cop to being so utterly wrong about it, still is about your answer to the question by K7lvo:

You call 911 if someone FLIPS YOU OFF???

Yes I do, it is road rage pure plane and simple and often will lead to other forms of agression... so be safe rather than sorry.

You said that flipping someone off was, in and of itself, road rage, and real road rage is a crime.

So which is it Sheldon? Is flipping someone off "defiantly [sic] not criminal activity" or is it "road rage pure plane [sic] and simple?" Pick one and stick with it, and then if it doesn't comport with the court case I provided as documentation for my assertion that there's nothing whatsoever illegal about flipping someone off, then document the legal basis for your position, just like I did with mine. That's how it's supposed to work on a discussion forum, Sheldon.

Blues

 

[Sheldon]

What do you mean by "story?" I didn't tell a "story," I documented what I had to say with a court case, which refutes your story that flipping somebody off, even a cop, is "road rage, pure plane [sic] and simple." Now you're calling my documentation a "story?" I've implied it before, but now I'm going to say it outright, you make it obvious in this thread why (apparently) so many people flip you off.

Yes it was a story, news worthy, well doccumeted, but only a story... Only one so far, and actually it was my youngest daughter driving. I was a passenger in the back seat, she was 18 at the time and we were on a cross country trip. Light traffic she was doing the limit in the rught lane, when this guy in a red PU pulled up tight to her door, laid on the horn and yelled something, and fliped her off, yelled again and repeat, then cut her off.. there were other reasons for the call and this one was in Oregon and yes he was 911'd and yes I saw the police pull him over as he exited the freeway... Who knows maybe they had other complaints on him it almost looked like they were waiting on the bozo as responce was about 5 minutes from my call and his exit...

Nope, not gonna let you get away with that. The issue wasn't "aggressive driving," it was, and since you won't cop to being so utterly wrong about it, still is about your answer to the question by K7lvo:



You said that flipping someone off was, in and of itself, road rage, and real road rage is a crime.



So which is it Sheldon? Is flipping someone off "defiantly [sic] not criminal activity" or is it "road rage pure plane [sic] and simple?" Pick one and stick with it, and then if it doesn't comport with the court case I provided as documentation for my assertion that there's nothing whatsoever illegal about flipping someone off, then document the legal basis for your position, just like I did with mine. That's how it's supposed to work on a discussion forum, Sheldon.

Blues

it is a misnomer in some jurisdictions, as is road rage, crime yes, but I would not go as far as calling it criminal...

edit someone asked about the Defensive carry forum.. http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/forum.php

 

[Mobuck]

"I 911 anyone that exhibits road rage, tailgates, drives erratically, crosses over the fog line multiple times, drives distracted, keeps hitting the rumble strips or the rocks on the edge, flips me the bird, in short mess up and you will get to talk to the police..."
Geez, you'd be on the phone ALL the time around here. The dispatcher would block your calls. Add in farm equipment, overwidth loads, and a couple of blue haired ladies who can't see over the dash and you'll be a hazard for being on the phone.

 

[Sheldon]

Wow not sure where you are, but here I have not seen the bird out of another driver in a dogs age.

Now old women that cant see over the dash, people that drive off the road and throw stones all over the place because they are texting (texting is illegal here and a huge fine), are DUI, or a local favorite in town on warm evenings people will block off streets, set up tables in the road, and play B ball or something else, tis not too bad when you only have to detour a block or so to get by but one time I had to go over 7 blocks just to find a way around... that stuff is as common as flies in a barn yard around here.

It is harvet time and you will see the occasional mulit axle tractor that blocks both sides of the narow country roads, (most are real nice about pulling over and letting cars pass). One time though one of those high field sprayers that a car could drive under.... On the bike and I was sorely tempted to fly under but resisted the temptation....

 

[BluesStringer]

.... On the bike and I was sorely tempted to fly under but resisted the temptation....

Wow Sheldon, was that you?

Link Removed

Blues