Pre-School meet and greet.

[NavyLCDR]

Just for legal clarification: Utah regulations are much more reasonable regarding firearms possession and carrying in daycare centers/preschools than Washington law is:

http://daycare.com/utah/12c.pdf

(4) The following items shall be inaccessible to children:
(a) firearms, ammunition, and other weapons on the premises. Firearms shall be stored separately from ammunition, in a locked cabinet or area, unless the use is in accordance with the Utah Concealed Weapons Act, or as otherwise allowed by law;

Rationale / Explanation
The purpose of this rule is to prevent child injuries or deaths from firearms. Children have a natural curiosity about firearms and have often seen their use glamorized on television. Firearms pose a great potential for tragic accidents with children. CFOC, pg. 252 Standard 5.161; pg. 354 Standard 8.039

Enforcement
This rule applies to both indoor and outdoor areas.

Firearms include guns, muzzle loaders, rifles, shotguns, hand guns, pistols, and automatic guns.
Firearms must be stored separately from ammunition, in a cabinet or area that is locked with a key or combination lock. Use of a trigger lock is not an acceptable alternative to storing firearms in a locked cabinet or area.

A weapon is defined as an item for which the intended use can cause harm or death to people or animals.
Paintball guns, BB guns, and Airsoft guns are considered weapons, and must be inaccessible to children in care. Child Care Center Rules Manual, 4-1-11 Section 12, Page 2

R430-100-12. INJURY PREVENTION.
Always Level 1 Noncompliance except as described below for Level 2.
Level 2 Noncompliance: If a gun has a trigger lock through the barrel of the gun and is stored in an unlocked
room/area.

 

[DemocratGunOwner]

Glad it went well, and glad you're in an area where that didn't draw unwanted attention. The way I read your initial post, you came across to me as the "Dirty Harry" type. Obviously based on your further posts, you're not.

 

[snatale42]

I see no benefit to OC in this situation. I do see several possible negatives.

Why does there have to be a benefit? If it's legal in UT then it's legal. Who cares what other people think? Caring about "hurting someone feelings" Is how NY,NJ,MA,MD and CA got to be the way they are. I'm from MA so I know FIRST HAND what your way of thinking or "fear" of scaring people leads to.

Just because we have the right does not mean it is always wise to exercise it.

I'm Speechless

 

[olsparky]

I don't know why being considerate of others is seen as a weakness to some people. I'll be honest, I don't really understand the OC mentality. I don't hold anything against people who choose to do it, I just don't understand it. I don't feel the need to let anyone know that I am armed. I also don't know how OC helps maintain my right to carry. Let me give you an example. My brother prefers to OC, and does it almost exclusively. He went to a restaurant and after a few minutes at his table was asked to put his gun in the car because it was upsetting some customers. That restaurant now has a prominent sign posted that says "No Weapons Allowed." There are also two malls that I can no longer carry in because he was approached and made aware of the mall's policy of no weapons. The policies were already in place, but the signs posted were not very easily seen and had to be pointed out to us. That is three locations that I had carried that I am not able to now because of OC.

My wife and I run a daycare. All of our clients know that I am a firearms instructor. They also know that I do not carry when kids are present. We have a no OC policy for a couple of reasons. The first is to avoid issues with the children. When you have that many kids, which range from infant to 10 years old, there are a lot of different reactions that take place when something out-of-the-ordinary happens, like seeing a gun. Trying to avoid stressing the kids and disrupting routines is the major reason for not allowing OC. The other is to avoid freaking out parents. It is my business and I need parents to feel comfortable or they will take their business elsewhere. I don't have a no gun policy, just a no OC policy. It isn't posted on a door, it is something we discuss during the initial meeting before children are admitted.

I try to put myself in the shoes of the business owner when I am out in public. The owner might be a big gun rights advocate, but he/she needs to do business and be profitable. If customers are uncomfortable it is bad for business, and the easiest solution is to put up a sign saying no weapons allowed. I have never seen a sign that says, "No Open Carry," or "Please conceal your gun." I conceal because it allows me to exercise my right while being considerate of others that might not understand it. I also feel that it is more considerate to businesses because I am not interfering with their ability to do business.

(Just a side note about why I don't carry at the daycare. Children have the habit of running into you to give hugs, wrestle, hide from other kids, etc. They also jump on you when you sit down or get on the ground. I don't want a kid to hurt themselves on my gun when they run into me. Also, I don't want a kid to wonder if I have a gun. I want them to feel safe, and if they feel that I have a gun because it's not safe, it causes them unnecessary stress and fear. I know how to securely carry so it isn't that I fear that the kids will have access to my gun, but why risk it.)

 

[snatale42]

If people aren't comfortable OC'ing then they don't have too. But the more people don't do it to make people "feel safe" are guaranteeing that their guns rights are going down the crapper. They are making sure that people ARE scared every time they do see a gun. Which will just lead to more restrictive gun laws. It doesn't stop at loosing the ability to OC, trust me. Once the mindset that the good guys are a danger to everybody is achieved, there's no stopping it. In states that allow OC, AND where people actually do it, people are desensitized to guns and are very aware that there in no danger from being near someone who carries. I've always thought of UT to have good laws but from what you've described between the gun buster signs going up in malls, you wanting people to "feel safe" people of your state are already giving in the the propaganda. You may THINK your helping your gun rights by making the anti's happy under the incorrect assumption that it'll make them leave your rights alone....IT WON'T! As an instructor you should be educating people otherwise, and making sure your students do the same when they leave your classes. The gun grabber states have PROVEN this is the only result when we make compromises with out alleged rights. But like everybody you won't believe it until it's too late. Take the advice of somebody that has gone through it. It WILL happen if you guys don't fight while you still can! Good Luck.

 

[olsparky]

@snatale42

In my classes I teach the law, handling, and technique. If asked my preference I tell them I prefer to conceal, and if asked why I tell them it is a personal choice that each of them has to make.

Utah is about as good a gun state that's out there from all I have read and experienced. The vast majority are gun supporters, and our laws make it easy to carry most places including college campuses. But it isn't like the old west with everyone walking around with a gun on their hip for everyone to see. When people see someone OC they usually have a look of surprise. That is going to take time, and a lot more people to OC to change.

I appreciate your opinion and perspective. You have given me some things I haven't thought about from in that light. If you ever decide to leave tyranny and are looking for a place to go, I do highly recommend Utah. Maybe you can help people get used to OC

 

[BC1]

I don't mean to start a riot but I have an honest question.

Can a ghetto resident with a clean criminal record ever gain acceptance for OC in the hood? It's a real question. Do we think anyone will ever support his bid to OC or will they remain afraid of him because of race, where he lives, etc. Will police grab him daily and violate his rights?

 

[defender829]

Many people feel safer when seeing a friendly person OCing. I have seen the evidence every time I have OCed, or seen somebody else OCing.
Would a BG OC? Especially without a permit?

 

[MIL-SPEC 45]

What a retarded man you are they let YOU have a permit???!!!!!! WTF!!!!!

 

[NavyLCDR]

My brother prefers to OC, and does it almost exclusively. He went to a restaurant and after a few minutes at his table was asked to put his gun in the car because it was upsetting some customers. That restaurant now has a prominent sign posted that says "No Weapons Allowed." There are also two malls that I can no longer carry in because he was approached and made aware of the mall's policy of no weapons. The policies were already in place, but the signs posted were not very easily seen and had to be pointed out to us. That is three locations that I had carried that I am not able to now because of OC.

How about putting the blame where blame belongs? First, the malls. Are you really trying to kid us? Do you really think we are that gullible? 99% of malls in America have a no firearms policy. So, it's REALLY your brother's fault for open carry that you can't carry in the malls? REALLY? It was OK for you to conceal carry before just because you didn't see the sign... but now it's somehow different? What if your brother had pointed out the sign to you on the way in? "Hey, I know you carry, did you see this sign here?" Come on. Try to be a little bit realistic here.

And the restaraunt. Yeah, anti-gun sentiment is due to open carry? Really? How about putting the blame where it belongs - for decades the anti-gun groups have been shouting their propaganda from the rooftops and cramming it down the publics' throats and pro-gun people have sat idly by and done nothing about it. Then when the public started listening to the anti-gun crowd, the pro-gun people caved in and accepted the "reasonable regulation" compromise. The problem is the pro-gun people didn't show themselves 60 or 70 years ago and fight for anything. Instead, they allowed the anti-gun steamroller to gain momentum and then found themselves "under the gun" to scrape up what little of their rights they could salvage.

And now.... OMG.... we are so afraid.... we don't dare show our guns in public because there is going to be such an outcry! It wasn't your brother that caused that restaurant to ban guns. It was the anti-gun bunch that has been "in your face" now for 60 or 70 years. Yet when a few folks start saying, "You know.... maybe it's time we try to project an alternative image. An image that shows it should be perfectly normal and acceptable for an American to carry a gun for self defense." All of a sudden we are the bad guys?!? I'm sorry, I'm not interested in a piece of that pie.

The ONLY way we are going to change the puclic sentiment is if we SHOW them what normal, everyday carrrying a firearm is really about. They aren't going to see that if the entire pro-gun crowd keeps their heads in the sand and hopes that somehow, something will change on it's own.

 

[olsparky]

"99% of malls in America have a no firearms policy."

"It was OK for you to conceal carry before just because you didn't see the sign... but now it's somehow different? What if your brother had pointed out the sign to you on the way in? "Hey, I know you carry, did you see this sign here?"

First of all, in Utah most malls don't prohibit guns.

Secondly, if I was made aware of a policy by anyone, I would respect it.

You may question my reasoning and completely disagree with my opinion, but please don't question my integrity.

 

[BC1]

It was the anti-gun bunch that has been "in your face" now for 60 or 70 years.

Even longer. Many old west towns banned the carry of firearms as early as the 1860's.

 

[NavyLCDR]

First of all, in Utah most malls don't prohibit guns.

Before you go into a mall next time, go in through a main entrance and off to the side on the wall should be a rules of conduct sign. About half way down buried in the fine print you will find in 99% of malls everywhere is a statement that firearms are prohibited. That is if you really care if they prohibit firearms or not...

 

[DemocratGunOwner]

"99% of malls in America have a no firearms policy."

First of all, in Utah most malls don't prohibit guns.

In ultra-liberal, as-anti-gun-as-the-state-constitution-allows Portland, Oregon, there is only one mall with a stated no-guns policy. (Of course, it's the one notorious for shootings... <sigh> It's the one that I won't go in without being armed. Which means, since they ban guns, I won't go in.)

 

[B2Tall]

You may question my reasoning and completely disagree with my opinion, but please don't question my integrity.

Welcome to the forums, Sparky. Get used to that kind of response but don't let 'em get you down. There's a very small, yet very loud, minority of Internet Nazis on this site who won't tolerate any view that differs from their own. Most of us, myself included, appreciate your input even though we might not always agree.

 

[golddigger14s]

In ultra-liberal, as-anti-gun-as-the-state-constitution-allows Portland, Oregon, there is only one mall with a stated no-guns policy. (Of course, it's the one notorious for shootings... <sigh> It's the one that I won't go in without being armed. Which means, since they ban guns, I won't go in.)

OR is an OC state, but a few cities like Portland you can only OC CA style. Ie: unloaded. A mall is private property and as such they can (unfortunately) ban guns. Some have poor wording, and say that "illegal weapons" are prohibited. "Sir you can't have that gun in here!" "Yes I can, it's a legal gun".

 

[kloutier]

What a retarded man you are they let YOU have a permit???!!!!!! WTF!!!!!

Not sure who you are speaking about in this comment... Perhaps you should rethink why your carry however.

 

[Chris Dunbar]

Whenever I go somewhere that I am unsure of how to carry, I carry concealed (as long as it is legal). Same as getting a tattoo, if you are that unsure, don't do it. I don't know what you carry, or the holster you carry, but with all the commotion of kids is there a possiblity of one of them getting a hold of it? Your child may know not to touch guns, but not every kid knows this. That would be an amazing blow to anti-gun believers: kids being gun smart. I say don't do it.

 

[JJFlash]

That's why I support the creation of a national holiday, Sheepdog Awareness Day, also known as wear your CCW Badge to work day.

Do you ever contribute anything of worth to a discussion? All I seem to see are these wise-ass comments wherein, I guess, you're trying to be witty. You're not.

 

[Grognard Gunny]

Carrying a gun IS "serious business"!

Hearing the same old "in your face at all costs" OC'ers go on...... now THAT'S funny.

Don't know about the rest of you, but I carry for self defence. Not interested in the "educational" aspects of carrying as a sort of "show and tell" effort. Don't have the patience for it any more. Went right out the door with my "crusader" ideals.

ME? Make a difference? Only to myself. So I will leave the teaching, crusading and other "noble" efforts to others. Banged my head against enough walls in my time already. LOL!

GG