Location Restrictions vs. Right to Carry

[Vegaman]

So there have been a lot of threads that have come up lately about Gun Free Zones in schools, and I think most of us have weighed in on the ridiculousness of that particular concept.

It has, however, led me to wonder about everyone's views on other location restrictions. Are there any that you would agree with? In some areas there are restrictions against carrying in state parks, in others you cannot carry in bars, state government buildings, etc..

Should any portion of the government (local, state, federal) be able to restrict our right to carry at any location? What about in a courtroom? Or visiting in a jail/prison?

As an added twist, what about on private property? If my gun fearing progressive neighbor has me over to his house for dinner (not that he ever would) does he have the right to ask me not to bring my gun? How about private businesses? Putting aside the asinine wording used in that bar in South Carolina, does the owner of that business have the right to not allow firearms into his establishment, or to not serve those who carry?

Some questions for the day as I head out to take my daughter to visit a college (gun free zone!) in a state that I cannot carry in...

 

[Jay]

Private property is just that. Your rights cease to exist at my property line, just like my rights cease to exist at your property line. Simple.

Privately owned business should have the same rights as private persons. Government entities should be held to the strictest interpretation of the Second Amendment... "shall NOT be infringed..."

I can't remember the last time I saw a "no guns" sign in Indiana, except outside a Federal facility, or courtroom.

 

[wolf_fire]

I'm not going to comment on the government buildings part of your questions because I've been down that debate too many times and just don't care to again.

Concerning private property, no one's rights should ever trump the rights of the private property owner. If a private property owner decides that no one is allowed on their property unless they disarm and don a clown costume than that is their right as the owner of the property. Your right is not to go on their property if you don't like the conditions of the owner.

A few years back a restaurant owner decided no one under 6 years of age was allowed in his restaurant. The news agencies reported this and tried to make him seem like a tyrant. He was tired of customers complaining about rude children and parents that didn't keep them in line. The interesting thing is with all the media attention, his business grew. It's HIS property. He may do with it what he wishes. Sometimes those decisions are detrimental to the property owner, sometimes they are not.

Restaurant Bans Young Kids - ABC News

Personally, I remember when all restaurants were smoking, then there was the smoking or non-smoking sections, now I wish they had the adult section and the section for children. But that's just one man's opinion... the restaurant OWNER can do whatever floats his/her boat.

 

[tlebamoff]

In Illinois, the National rental car locations post the Illinois "no gun sign" https://ccl4illinois.com/ccw/Public/Signage.aspx Does anyone know if other National Rental car location in non Illinois conceal carry states have no gun policies? Trying to find out if it is just an Illinois idiotic decision by the regional or state manager or is this a corporate and consistent policy across the US. Also, the only other place with the no guns allowed sign is the resturant chain called Roy's Roy's Restaurant - Hawaiian Fusion Cuisine - Restaurant Locations

 

[Nightmare45]

Government offices are "We the People" owned by us, as such Constitution reigns. Everywhere and anywhere. Private property is private property, even police may not enter without permission unless investigating a crime.

 

[Axeanda45]

Private property rights HAVE to include others the right to carry any of THEIR property on them or your argument is void... You CANNOT claim one has "property rights" at the same time denying others their own "property rights"..... Deny someone entry, yes.... kick someone off your property any time for any reason? yes... infringe on their rights to have whatever they want on their person that you do not know is there? nope....

Now, to the question about fed and state "laws" that the op asked.... NO, they CANNOT, "Legally", by "LAW" (ever hear about that thing called the Constitution and the Bill of Rights?) Infringe on the 2nd Amendment. But, since when has any of our "government" (local, state, federal) actually followed any law?

 

[Firefighterchen]

My land, I rule.

Public land, Constitution rules.

Government should be limited by the Constitution.

Sent from my HTCONE using USA Carry mobile app

 

[Jay]

Private property rights HAVE to include others the right to carry any of THEIR property on them or your argument is void... You CANNOT claim one has "property rights" at the same time denying others their own "property rights"..... Deny someone entry, yes.... kick someone off your property any time for any reason? yes... infringe on their rights to have whatever they want on their person that you do not know is there? nope....

Respects, but if what you say above is true, that I can kick someone off my property at any time for any reason, then I most certainly can toss someone, OR PREVENT someone from carrying a firearm on my property should I choose to do so.

 

[Axeanda45]

Respects, but if what you say above is true, that I can kick someone off my property at any time for any reason, then I most certainly can toss someone, OR PREVENT someone from carrying a firearm on my property should I choose to do so.

Logic FAIL........

ONLY if you know they have it.......


IOW.... If you do not know they have a weapon (against your rules or wishes), then you CANNOT kick them off for that reason.... because you do not know...... Also, your "rights" are in no way being infinged either...

 

[telpinaro]

I think I've seen every "classic" and unending argument restarted in the last day or two... New giveaway, I take it?

 

[Jay]

ONLY if you know they have it.......


IOW.... If you do not know they have a weapon (against your rules or wishes), then you CANNOT kick them off for that reason.... because you do not know......

With that attitude, you'll get yer come-uppance before long. Carry guns aren't all that invisible to folks that carry... your choice, and chance...

 

[Axeanda45]

With that attitude, you'll get yer come-uppance before long. Carry guns aren't all that invisible to folks that carry... your choice, and chance...

WTF are you talking about? My attitude that my property rights are 100% as valid as yours?

 

[Jay]

WTF are you talking about? My attitude that my property rights are 100% as valid as yours?

NOT on my property, they are not.

You have the right to use vulgar language, but NOT on my property....
you have the right to dress in drag, but NOT on my property...
you have the right to carry a firearm, but NOT on MY property....

Sir, it's not rocket science.... for most folks. You , however, may be an exception....

We'll just have to disagree.

 

[Steon]

Private property is just that. Your rights cease to exist at my property line, just like my rights cease to exist at your property line. Simple.

Privately owned business should have the same rights as private persons. Government entities should be held to the strictest interpretation of the Second Amendment... "shall NOT be infringed..."

I can't remember the last time I saw a "no guns" sign in Indiana, except outside a Federal facility, or courtroom.

Only one business in NW Indiana that I've run into.
Advance America at 4231 Franklin St., Michigan City, IN 46360

I popped my head in and told them I'd go to Check into Cash since they didn't want my business...

 

[wolf_fire]

Logic FAIL........

ONLY if you know they have it.......


IOW.... If you do not know they have a weapon (against your rules or wishes), then you CANNOT kick them off for that reason.... because you do not know...... Also, your "rights" are in no way being infinged either...

LOGIC FAIL... if a private property owner doesn't see me release clear toxic gases on his property and kill his entire family, is it not still murder???

That private property owner can instill metal detectors and frisking stations at every entrance to his/her property to eliminate the likes of someone like you who wishes to usurp his/her rights on his/her property.

Let me try another logic fail example... if they don't SEE me take that merchandise, it's not really theft...... if the cops don't catch me speeding, it's justifiable.... as long as I can get away with something, I'm not infringing on anyone.

That sounds like a 5 year old's argument.

 

[Steon]

Personally, if I go into someones home I tell them I carry. I give them the option to tell me they don't allow guns in their home and I will respect that decision.

In the case I don't really WANT to go into that persons home, I'll use it as just the excuse I need NOT to go in. 'Oh, ok, well, I understand you don't want guns in your home, so that's cool. I'll be heading out then...'

As for the Private Property such as businesses, if they didn't want me to carry, they should have posted it. While signs DON'T have the power of law in Indiana, it DOES let people know the Property Owner's desires, such as that Advance America sign I mentioned earlier. I then have three options as I see it. Carry anyways because the sign doesn't have the power of law, and the worst that can happen is I can be told to leave, Leave the Property and Don't Carry, or get a hold of someone from the door and tell them they are losing a customer due to their policy of no guns and walk away as they watch me walk away. I like to opt for Option 3...

 

[Axeanda45]

LOGIC FAIL... if a private property owner doesn't see me release clear toxic gases on his property and kill his entire family, is it not still murder??? ANOTHER COMPLETE LOGIC FAIL... And evidence that you have zero clue about rights.... an inanimate object in a pocket harms nothing... zero, zilch, nada..... try again einstien...

That private property owner can instill metal detectors and frisking stations at every entrance to his/her property to eliminate the likes of someone like you who wishes to usurp his/her rights on his/her property. AGAIN, your argument has NOTHING to do with something YOU DO NOT KNOW IS THERE!!!!!! if you install these metal detectors, THEN YOU WILL KNOW THE GUN IS THERE!!! Dude, do you know how to read or are you just playing it by ear???

Let me try another logic fail example... if they don't SEE me take that merchandise, it's not really theft...... if the cops don't catch me speeding, it's justifiable.... as long as I can get away with something, I'm not infringing on anyone. Theft is taking something away from someone else, it HARMS THEM.... SO your argument AGAIN is downright ILLOGICAL and has NO BEARING AT ALL on mine, because again, YOU HAVE NO CLUE WHAT RIGHTS ARE OR HOW TO INFRINGE OR NOT INFRINGE ON THEM.... Speeding and not getting caught? ok, mr genius... WHO got harmed? no harm=zero infringement..... (and talking about "laws" when we are talking about "RIGHTS" is yet another example of you not having a clue)

That sounds like a 5 year old's argument.

The argument that sounds like someone who has no clue is ALL coming from you dude..... STOP embarrassing yourself and try to get some education about RIGHTS before you try and educate others about them....

 

[Axeanda45]

NOT on my property, they are not.

You have the right to use vulgar language, but NOT on my property....
you have the right to dress in drag, but NOT on my property...
you have the right to carry a firearm, but NOT on MY property....

Sir, it's not rocket science.... for most folks. You , however, may be an exception....

We'll just have to disagree.

No, you will just have to come up with an argument that actually applies to what we are talking about..... If you DO NOT KNOW THAT I AM CARRYING SOMETHING IN MY POCKET, IT DOES YOU NO HARM,(hence, NO infringement) AND YOU AGAIN DO NOT KNOW ABOUT IT!(that is in capitols so you can maybe, just maybe get a clue that I want you to pay attention to that part) NONE of your examples have anything to do with something you do not know about, are unaware of, so your arguments do NOT apply....

Geesh, does not anyone on this forum know how to read or make a valid argument????

 

[Axeanda45]

All of you say you are supporting "property rights" yet you IGNORE others "property rights" in your own arguments.... PROVE with a VALID example that an inanimate object actually does someone else harm when you DO NOT EVEN KNOW IT IS THERE (remember, it gives off no harmful "death rays" or anything, it is inert) or just shut the heck up already...


I am accused quite often of wanting "my way, and to heck with anyone elses rights" yet I recognize everyones rights UNTIL they infringe on MINE..... In my argument, I realize (and argue from the point ) that we all have rights, and sometimes they (yours AND mine) have to co-exist in the same general area...... Hence, my private property in my pocket CAN be on your LAND (property rights) at the same time you dont want them to be...... Notice I am NOT claiming that I have a RIGHT to open carry or flaunt my gun in your face... YOU DO NOT KNOW IT IS THERE.... I am ALLOWING YOU YOUR ILLUSION of your LOPSIDED view of property rights, while still exercising my own... and as long as you do not discover I am armed we are both happy that our rights are intact....

You guys, on the other hand are doing what I am accused of... YOU are insisting that it is your rules, all the time on your property, and no-one else has any property rights while there....
If YOUR argument was true, as you keep claiming, then you must own everything in my wallet, or everything in my trunk out in YOUR parking lot.....



"No man has a natural right to commit aggression on the equal
rights of another, and this is all from which the laws ought to
restrain him." --Thomas Jefferson to Francis Gilmer, 1816.




"Of liberty I would say that, in the whole plenitude of its extent, it is unobstructed action according to our will. But rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others." --Thomas Jefferson to Isaac H. Tiffany, 1819.


EQUAL RIGHTS...... If you insist you have property rights, then you MUST allow me mine...... or you are a hypocrite

 

[Jay]

All of you say you are supporting "property rights" yet you IGNORE others "property rights" in your own arguments.... PROVE with a VALID example that an inanimate object actually does someone else harm when you DO NOT EVEN KNOW IT IS THERE (remember, it gives off no harmful "death rays" or anything, it is inert) or just shut the heck up already...

I think youi're one of those folks who give the statists and socialism advocates all the ammunition they need to proclaim, "see what sort of mentality carries guns?... they want ANYONE to be able to do what ever they want in YOUR home".

How about YOU provide one example of law that gives you the right or legal justification to carry anything objectionable to me, onto my property, or into my home?.... or just shut the heck up already.