is .380 enough gun?

[Lynn R Allen]

Ballistics count as well as round size

Another factor that I didn't see commented upon is that BGs who live in colder climates often wear heavy clothing in the winter that reduces the effectiveness of otherwise excellent rounds. JHPs can apparently be prevented from expanding by a winter coat and/or heavy Carrhart work-clothing. My local gun dealer encouraged me to load .38 Special +P Hornady Critical Defense rounds for self-protection, especially during Michigan winters. (These are manufactured with a plastic insert inside the hollow-point to make them properly expand if fired through heavy clothing). Seems plausible to me, so I took the advice.

 

[Lynn R Allen]

Special self-defense rounds are expensive, of course. FMJ rounds are generally speaking cheaper and cause less fouling of your gun barrel, so I use these for practice at the shooting range.

 

[titon]

jhp's cause no more fouling than fmj ammo, and non expanding hp's penetrate more DEEPLY than ones tht do expand. nothing expands with any reliability in flesh, in a factory 380 load, or .38 special, for that matter. The ammo makers wussy load the 38, so badly here in the US, its a joke. in France, 38 loads outperform most 357 loads here. the THV Arcane .38 was 45 grs at 2400 fps, 4" barrel.

 

[K7lvo]

I was scepticle at first about the .380 ACP, however, once I acquired my Sig P238 and loaded it with Speer JHP Gold Dots, I was pleased......

It is now my EDC Pocket Cannon, and has not had one single issue after passing 500+ rounds thru it.

Only wish the ammunition was more plentiful


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

I love my P238, but I'm thinking about moving up to the P938, both for increased stopping power and availability/cost.

 

[tricolordad]

Then please equate for me based on your expertise in terminal ballistics (with supporting documentation) the correlation between ballistic gel (at what calibration) to human flesh and bone and how you've come to the conclusion that 9" of penetration in ballistic gel reliably equates to 9" of penetration in human flesh, cartilage and bone. Further what's the penetration required to laterally traverse the forearm of the average American adult Male prior to arriving at the chest?

When you start screaming for sources from others, you had better be prepared to present some in favor of your own argument. As for me, I posted one of my sources. When you shoot, where do you aim? I shoot for the gut, I mean to stop the threat by causing intense pain. Also, no bones there, just a hip bone to break or richochet off of. As for my credentials, I am awaiting evidence supporting your opinion. Shall I post copies of my discharge papers? Lol. Nah, they'll say I provoked you and vilify me on TV. Go back to defensivecarry and spout your "only a .45" BS there.

 

[tricolordad]

By the way SGB, what is it exactly that you are arguing? Are you still mad about me winning that .22lr debate on the other forum, or are you saying that .380acp is inadequate for self defense? I've provided my sources....you don't trust the NRA when it comes to cartridge evaluations? I do. I also shoot daily and carry several calibers, ranging from .22 to .45. I've said it before and I'm saying it again: You have offered no supporting evidence to your claims in any forum...maybe you should bow out. I won't laugh. Promise.

 

[SGB]

When you start screaming for sources from others, you had better be prepared to present some in favor of your own argument. As for me, I posted one of my sources. When you shoot, where do you aim? I shoot for the gut, I mean to stop the threat by causing intense pain. Also, no bones there, just a hip bone to break or richochet off of. As for my credentials, I am awaiting evidence supporting your opinion. Shall I post copies of my discharge papers? Lol. Nah, they'll say I provoked you and vilify me on TV. Go back to defensivecarry and spout your "only a .45" BS there.

You just posted for posterity your complete and utter ignorance.

By the way SGB, what is it exactly that you are arguing? Are you still mad about me winning that .22lr debate on the other forum, or are you saying that .380acp is inadequate for self defense? I've provided my sources....you don't trust the NRA when it comes to cartridge evaluations? I do. I also shoot daily and carry several calibers, ranging from .22 to .45. I've said it before and I'm saying it again: You have offered no supporting evidence to your claims in any forum...maybe you should bow out. I won't laugh. Promise.

I'm sorry but you must not have made enough of an impression for me to remember you sparky. However You've easily pegged yourself as an idiot in this thread.

 

[tricolordad]

Soooooo...post your source?

 

[tricolordad]

actually, it's not, on the street, anyway, plenty of sources prove that 90+% of the time, you dont have to hit them with ANY bullet, to make them flee, and 80% of the time, you don't have to fire at all. it's quite rare, really, less than 1 time in 20 attacks, that you have to shoot him into the ground with repeated, powerful hits to the chest, or blow off his head.

bs on the 12" being "required", I can kill you very dead with bullets that "only" penetrate 4" into your chest.

4 inches is a lot when you take into consideration that the human body was not intended to be penetrated and will likely go into shock when a certain level of blood is lost.

The 12" they so often quote is an FBI standard for agents IN THE LINE OF DUTY. As we all know, they work high profile cases, or cases too dangerous for average LEOs, FBI agents chase bank robbers, terrorists, spies, cartels, all the non-run of the mill types who probably won't try to stick you or I up. Those types they chase are most likely going to possess some kind of body armor or be trained killers on drugs. Kind of like some of the terrorists you meet overseas.

 

[Stan45]

4 inches is a lot when you take into consideration that the human body was not intended to be penetrated and will likely go into shock when a certain level of blood is lost.

The 12" they so often quote is an FBI standard for agents IN THE LINE OF DUTY. As we all know, they work high profile cases, or cases too dangerous for average LEOs, FBI agents chase bank robbers, terrorists, spies, cartels, all the non-run of the mill types who probably won't try to stick you or I up. Those types they chase are most likely going to possess some kind of body armor or be trained killers on drugs. Kind of like some of the terrorists you meet overseas.

They do??
And the bad guy that a citizen may have to defend against is what a teen skipping school?

 

[SGB]

They do??
And the bad guy that a citizen may have to defend against is what a teen skipping school?

You're working on a lost cause.

 

[Flanmedic51]

4 inches is a lot when you take into consideration that the human body was not intended to be penetrated and will likely go into shock when a certain level of blood is lost.

The 12" they so often quote is an FBI standard for agents IN THE LINE OF DUTY. As we all know, they work high profile cases, or cases too dangerous for average LEOs, FBI agents chase bank robbers, terrorists, spies, cartels, all the non-run of the mill types who probably won't try to stick you or I up. Those types they chase are most likely going to possess some kind of body armor or be trained killers on drugs. Kind of like some of the terrorists you meet overseas.

Where are you people getting this stuff??? 12" benchmark is via ballistic gelatin which translates to much less once the round penetrates the human body since it has to pass through clothes, bone, muscle, etc. If the BG has armor on, it doesn't matter if the round has demonstrated 12" penetration through jello........

FYI. The FBI doesn't ONLY do high profile Rambo stuff like in the movies...

 

[dbfox]

I just bought my first pistol 3 months ago. I choose a Walther pk380, its great for conceal. I feel the size of the round isn't such a big deal, if you can hit what your shooting at, it will deter your attacker no matter what the size.

 

[Stan45]

The Peter Soulis Incident
Palmer had taken 22 hits from Soulis' .40-caliber Glock, 17 of which had hit center mass. Despite the fact that the weapon had been loaded with Ranger SXTs considered by many to be one of the best man-stoppers available Palmer lived for more than four minutes after the last shot was fired. His autopsy revealed nothing more than a small amount of alcohol in his bloodstream.
A web search you should be able to find the whole story, if not let me know and I'll post it.

When the fight has started it is to late to run home and get a bigger gun.
We must look at some of these shootings and then decide what is best. What I decide is best for me may be different from you. The point is will will live or die with our choices.

 

[tricolordad]

Yup, if you want to stop a running man dead in his tracks, the best thing available is multiple hits from 3" 00 Buck. Or a full auto rifle...But since we can't carry those legally, we have to make choices in smaller handgun calibers. When we ask questions on internet forums looking for honest fact-based answers, people like SGB argue against everything but .45acp. Call me a lost cause, call me all the names you like. It just reinforces my argument when you call names and belittle instead of providing supporting evidence. I call BS when I see it, as have others in this thread. I'm not going to sugarcoat my responses, nor am I going to present my opinion as fact as you have done. Just be truthful, put "IMHO" before your post.

The point I was trying to make was, since the most often used caliber in self defense situations has been 22lr, which I have provided hard facts supporting its effectiveness, then .380acp will be JUST FINE AS LONG AS YOU MAKE CONSISTENT HITS TO VITAL AREAS, AS WITH ALL CALIBERS.. Yes, every caliber has been noted to fail, even 50BMG. People survived point blank shots to the chest with those 68 caliber muskets during the American revolution. There's no magic number when it comes to guns. But to argue against a caliber that people are and have been carrying in large numbers and maiming and killing each other with for a century is just stupid, unless you have actual evidence supporting your argument. In that case, I'm all ears.

 

[tricolordad]

. If the BG has armor on, it doesn't matter if the round has demonstrated 12" penetration through jello........

If the BG has armor on, you need a rifle.

 

[cluznar]

Why is this thread still going? .380 is enough gun. If you feel it's not then get something else.

:dance3:

 

[schadenfreude]

Too late. I already did.
Congratulations.



Who said that an assailant has to leave cover to do you harm? If he's got a gun, he doesn't need to leave cover to fire it at you.
He does if you're aware of your surroundings and get off the X in situations where people are shooting at you. Why was he ambushing? There's no reason for an average citizen to be ambushed, except for if he is an..........ASSASSIN!

And what is with this, "He's got to leave it to chase you..." crap?

You said target behind cover, so I'm assuming that assassins are after you. Don't you run? Or do you stand there like life is a John Wayne movie?

What kind of fool would leave cover to chase someone who is holed up and defending themselves with a firearm? Are you anticipating bayonet charges where you live?

Again, you said he was a target behind cover. This is an ambush scenario, they're out to get you. Don't assassins have knives too?

So now you are advocating that we carry a .22LR for SD/CCW?

That's not at all what I was doing, but since you brought it up, WHY NOT? There's plenty of readily available information proving the adequate performance of .22lr, NOTHING to prove otherwise. You want proof? .22lr has been proven to perform adequately, if somebody is comfortable in their ability to hit the target repeatedly in vital areas with CCI Stingers from a 2.4" barrel (1.6 expansion factor, 8 inches of penetration vs. 10% ordnance gel... Source: Handgun Stopping Power, American Rifleman September 2012) and does so, who are you or I to say they shouldn't carry said weapon?! You can carry however you like, and everybody else can carry the way they like. Your opinion is not, and should not be offered in place of fact, if that's where you were going with that comment.


Thank you, Captain Obvious!


You're very welcome, Deputy Fife.

It is hard to take seriously a post so full of nonsequitur. First you say that you weren't advocating the use of a .22 for SD

So now you are advocating that we carry a .22LR for SD/CCW?

That's not at all what I was doing

then you say-

...but since you brought it up, WHY NOT? There's plenty of readily available information proving the adequate performance of .22lr, NOTHING to prove otherwise. You want proof? .22lr has been proven to perform adequately, if somebody is comfortable in their ability to hit the target repeatedly in vital areas with CCI Stingers from a 2.4" barrel (1.6 expansion factor, 8 inches of penetration vs. 10% ordnance gel... Source: Handgun Stopping Power, American Rifleman September 2012) and does so, who are you or I to say they shouldn't carry said weapon?! You can carry however you like, and everybody else can carry the way they like.

The gelatin used in your source article was never calibrated (try finding where he says it is or a picture of the gelatin with the calibration BB) and Mann (the author) cites Marshall & Sanow (two of the most fraudulent buffoons in the business) as sources. Bad source, slugger. Try again. :no:

Your opinion is not, and should not be offered in place of fact, if that's where you were going with that comment.

The very same could be said for your opinion, especially after it just fell flat based upon your source's inadequacies. It is the epitome of EPIC FAIL.

 

[tricolordad]

It is hard to take seriously a post so full of nonsequitur. First you say that you weren't advocating the use of a .22 for SD

That's because I wasn't. Anybody who read the actual post unemotionally can see that..
then you say-

yes, I did. And I'm certainly not wrong there. There's actual facts behind what I say, regardless of how you feel about it,

The gelatin used in your source article was never calibrated (try finding where he says it is or a picture of the gelatin with the calibration BB) and Mann (the author) cites Marshall & Sanow (two of the most fraudulent buffoons in the business) as sources. Bad source, slugger. Try again. :no:

Again, your opinion.

The very same could be said for your opinion, especially after it just fell flat based upon your source's inadequacies. It is the epitome of EPIC FAIL.

Before you post about the legitimacy of somebody's sources, consider this: You haven't proven anything nor have you provided a source to back up your claims. Claiming that there's inadequacies without providing documentation in support of it is asinine. You must be one of those weirdos who sit in front of the computer and never leaves the house because those are the ONLY people who say "EPIC FAIL". You've all gotten way off topic by arguing the legitimacy of .22lr as a SD round when I said that if 22 was enough, then 380 is enough, even when I posted my sources, WHICH NONE OF YOU HAVE DONE. Until I see something other than speculation, opinion, or bravado, I am not going to reply. You can argue with yourselves.

 

[schadenfreude]

Before you post about the legitimacy of somebody's sources, consider this: You haven't proven anything nor have you provided a source to back up your claims. Claiming that there's inadequacies without providing documentation in support of it is asinine. You must be one of those weirdos who sit in front of the computer and never leaves the house because those are the ONLY people who say "EPIC FAIL". You've all gotten way off topic by arguing the legitimacy of .22lr as a SD round when I said that if 22 was enough, then 380 is enough, even when I posted my sources, WHICH NONE OF YOU HAVE DONE. Until I see something other than speculation, opinion, or bravado, I am not going to reply. You can argue with yourselves.

Yes, please take your ball and go home. This game is for big boys only.

If you post stupid crap like advocating the use of a .22 for SD or cite a source that relies upon fraudulent "research" conducted by a couple of hucksters, expect to be called on it.

If you want to know why this-

when I said that if 22 was enough, then 380 is enough, even when I posted my sources...

is one of the most ridiculous statements ever posted on the 'net, all you need to do is check out what serious researchers like Dr Martin Fackler, Dr Gary Roberts, Charles Schwartz, Duncan MacPherson, et. al. have said on the subject instead of quoting poorly researched articles supported by disreputable sources like M&S.

I've given you the names to research.

Now, surprise us all by lifting your head out of the puddle of drool that it is presently lying in, read what legitimate professional researchers have to say on the subject and report back with a more informed perspective than you've demonstrated this far.