is .380 enough gun?
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schadenfreude
New member
What? My screen name?
Most (7/8ths) of my family (Bierer- guess what they all did for living with that name!) is from Bavaria and though my German is kind of sketchy, the first time I heard the word, I knew exactly what it meant. My grandparents, great uncles and aunts all speak it and I get by, but my German is not nearly as refined as theirs since they are native speakers and I am not.
Since I (being a police officer) possess a rather dark sense of "gallows humor", it seemed only natural that I should use it as my screen name.
Most (7/8ths) of my family (Bierer- guess what they all did for living with that name!) is from Bavaria and though my German is kind of sketchy, the first time I heard the word, I knew exactly what it meant. My grandparents, great uncles and aunts all speak it and I get by, but my German is not nearly as refined as theirs since they are native speakers and I am not.
Since I (being a police officer) possess a rather dark sense of "gallows humor", it seemed only natural that I should use it as my screen name.
I'm a native German. "Schadenfreude" is a word that as some have said is unique, we don't really have anything in English that describes that precise mix of emotions ;-)
tricolordad
Banned
Oh lord, save us the headache and don't go there. Some of you big caliber guys are just fine with other people carrying a .32, like opinion matters more than training...with all the modern ammo available .380 will perform adequately in a gunfight just the same as .22lr, .25, .32acp, .357, .38sp, 9mm luger, .40, .44, .45acp, and yes, .460 and .50 action express too...did I forget any?lol as long as youre making hits in vital areas, as with all calibers. A hole in the lung is more effective than a scrape across the arm. The rules of gunfighting are this: 3, 3, 3. 3 feet, 3 shots, 3 seconds. If your assailant is behind cover, you've got a few advantages. He's got to leave it to chase you, he also has a blind spot While you're getting off the X, why not get to cover of your own? Why not find an avenue of escape? If .22lr can penetrate 12 pieces of plywood, I don't see your point. .45 won't penetrate a concrete wall at walmart, so would it really matter what you've got if he's hiding?! Moving targets are hard to hit, bug out!
Another perspective of the effectiveness of it in gunfights... Afghanistan has more than a few who will tell you what it was like fighting the Soviets. Afghanistan was comparable to Iran or Israel in terms of military might until the soviets and their arsenal, including the Makarov and its .380 round showed up.
schadenfreude
New member
The best I've got for a translation would be "a mischevious delight in the misfortune of those who probably deserve it"- it's almost Karmic.
schadenfreude
New member
Too late. I already did.
Who said that an assailant has to leave cover to do you harm? If he's got a gun, he doesn't need to leave cover to fire it at you.
And what is with this, "He's got to leave it to chase you..." crap? :blink:
What kind of fool would leave cover to chase someone who is holed up and defending themselves with a firearm? Are you anticipating bayonet charges where you live? :sarcastic:
So now you are advocating that we carry a .22LR for SD/CCW?
Thank you, Captain Obvious!
tricolordad
Banned
Too late. I already did.
Congratulations.
Who said that an assailant has to leave cover to do you harm? If he's got a gun, he doesn't need to leave cover to fire it at you.
He does if you're aware of your surroundings and get off the X in situations where people are shooting at you. Why was he ambushing? There's no reason for an average citizen to be ambushed, except for if he is an..........ASSASSIN!
And what is with this, "He's got to leave it to chase you..." crap? :blink:
You said target behind cover, so I'm assuming that assassins are after you. Don't you run? Or do you stand there like life is a John Wayne movie?
What kind of fool would leave cover to chase someone who is holed up and defending themselves with a firearm? Are you anticipating bayonet charges where you live? :sarcastic:
Again, you said he was a target behind cover. This is an ambush scenario, they're out to get you. Don't assassins have knives too?
So now you are advocating that we carry a .22LR for SD/CCW?
That's not at all what I was doing, but since you brought it up, WHY NOT? There's plenty of readily available information proving the adequate performance of .22lr, NOTHING to prove otherwise. You want proof? .22lr has been proven to perform adequately, if somebody is comfortable in their ability to hit the target repeatedly in vital areas with CCI Stingers from a 2.4" barrel (1.6 expansion factor, 8 inches of penetration vs. 10% ordnance gel... Source: Handgun Stopping Power, American Rifleman September 2012) and does so, who are you or I to say they shouldn't carry said weapon?! You can carry however you like, and everybody else can carry the way they like. Your opinion is not, and should not be offered in place of fact, if that's where you were going with that comment.
Thank you, Captain Obvious!
You're very welcome, Deputy Fife.
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tricolordad
Banned
Link Removed
Argue all you want, I'll let the cold hard facts speak for themselves. Guten nacht, fraulein...
You can take a look down on the .380 section, all tested loads perform to a level that will definitely stop and/or kill provided you make consistent hits to vital areas. Unless the dude is like 500 pounds, at that point, just walk away...he can't getcha anyways.l
Argue all you want, I'll let the cold hard facts speak for themselves. Guten nacht, fraulein...
You can take a look down on the .380 section, all tested loads perform to a level that will definitely stop and/or kill provided you make consistent hits to vital areas. Unless the dude is like 500 pounds, at that point, just walk away...he can't getcha anyways.l
SGB
New member
Where can one find Richard Mann's credentials regarding terminal ballistics and the calibration data of his tests? Further what guideline are you using to make the claim that "all tested loads perform to a level that will definitely stop and/or kill".
RLM1911
New member
I was scepticle at first about the .380 ACP, however, once I acquired my Sig P238 and loaded it with Speer JHP Gold Dots, I was pleased......
It is now my EDC Pocket Cannon, and has not had one single issue after passing 500+ rounds thru it.
Only wish the ammunition was more plentiful
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
It is now my EDC Pocket Cannon, and has not had one single issue after passing 500+ rounds thru it.
Only wish the ammunition was more plentiful
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
One of the problems is that this round does not penetrate deep enough. Buffalo Bore makes a hard cast a 100 gr flat point that may get deep enough. Winchester makes a FMJ Flat nose.
If you are going to carry a .380 you need to practice getting 5 rounds off in a 2 seconds or less. Do not work on single shots unless you need to work on marksmanship. Do not work on double taps.
And for those that thinks it penetrates deep enough, the bad guy is not going to be standing up straight with his arms at his side. You will be lucky if the round gets to vitals.
If you are going to carry a .380 you need to practice getting 5 rounds off in a 2 seconds or less. Do not work on single shots unless you need to work on marksmanship. Do not work on double taps.
And for those that thinks it penetrates deep enough, the bad guy is not going to be standing up straight with his arms at his side. You will be lucky if the round gets to vitals.
tricolordad
Banned
Look at the data. Assuming a giant 600 pound man boobed blubber covered fatbody is shot with hornady 90 gr. critical defense which expands somewhat poorly and penetrates only 9.3 inches, the least of the tested .380 loads, thats still 9" of penetration, hole in the lung, intestines, stomach, heart and so on. SGB, are you telling me collapsed lungs, punctured leaking stomach SEPTICEMIA or a bullet in the heart, leaking liver won't stop or kill him? To out it another way... 9 inches goes STRAIGHT THROUGH ME,( I'm 6'3" and around 240 lbs)blood leaking outta both the entrance and the exit wounds and inside the channel. Don't need Richard Mann to tell me anything as I am capable of processing and understanding the information.
SGB
New member
Then please equate for me based on your expertise in terminal ballistics (with supporting documentation) the correlation between ballistic gel (at what calibration) to human flesh and bone and how you've come to the conclusion that 9" of penetration in ballistic gel reliably equates to 9" of penetration in human flesh, cartilage and bone. Further what's the penetration required to laterally traverse the forearm of the average American adult Male prior to arriving at the chest?
Lethality is one thing, the probability of a stop is another,. I can stop you cold with a ball bat applied vigorously across your guts, but in a day or 2, you will be fine,. I can cause your death with a hatpin to your heart, but it might take you an hour to die. Shoot some animals with both the 380 and the 357 sometime, and see if you still "think" that the 380 is adequate. It performs about like a Stinger hp from a .22 rifle, and so does .45 ball ammo. If you have a locked breech 380, like the Keltec, and know how, it can produce about double the "power" that it gets with factory ammo, in most cases.
If you have a locked breech 380, like the Keltec, and know how, it can produce about double the "power" that it gets with factory ammo, in most cases.selrahco321
New member
i carry a s&w bg 380 i love it light easy to conceal and very dependable would recommend this to anybody i wouldnt want to be shot by a gun of any caliber.
Physiologically, no caliber or bullet is certain to incapacitate any individual unless the brain is hit. Psychologically, some individuals can be incapacitated by minor or small caliber wounds. Those individuals who are stimulated by fear, adrenaline, drugs, alcohol, and/or sheer will and survival determination may not be incapacitated even if mortally wounded.
The will to survive and to fight despite horrific damage to the body is commonplace on the battlefield, and on the street. Barring a hit to the brain, the only way to force incapacitation is to cause sufficient blood loss that the subject can no longer function, and that takes time. Even if the heart is instantly destroyed, there is sufficient oxygen in the brain to support full and complete voluntary action for 10-15 seconds.
Kinetic energy does not wound. Temporary cavity does not wound. The much discussed "shock" of bullet impact is a fable and "knock down" power is a myth. The critical element is penetration. The bullet must pass through the large, blood bearing organs and be of sufficient diameter to promote rapid bleeding. Penetration less than 12 inches is too little, and, in the words of two of the participants in the 1987 Wound Ballistics Workshop, "too little penetration will get you killed." Given desirable and reliable penetration, the only way to increase bullet effectiveness is to increase the severity of the wound by increasing the size of hole made by the bullet. Any bullet which will not penetrate through vital organs from less than optimal angles is not acceptable. Of those that will penetrate, the edge is always with the bigger bullet.
The will to survive and to fight despite horrific damage to the body is commonplace on the battlefield, and on the street. Barring a hit to the brain, the only way to force incapacitation is to cause sufficient blood loss that the subject can no longer function, and that takes time. Even if the heart is instantly destroyed, there is sufficient oxygen in the brain to support full and complete voluntary action for 10-15 seconds.
Kinetic energy does not wound. Temporary cavity does not wound. The much discussed "shock" of bullet impact is a fable and "knock down" power is a myth. The critical element is penetration. The bullet must pass through the large, blood bearing organs and be of sufficient diameter to promote rapid bleeding. Penetration less than 12 inches is too little, and, in the words of two of the participants in the 1987 Wound Ballistics Workshop, "too little penetration will get you killed." Given desirable and reliable penetration, the only way to increase bullet effectiveness is to increase the severity of the wound by increasing the size of hole made by the bullet. Any bullet which will not penetrate through vital organs from less than optimal angles is not acceptable. Of those that will penetrate, the edge is always with the bigger bullet.
Usually, a bullet penetration depth of 12-20 inches (approximately 30-50 cm) is required to reliably reach and disrupt vital structures in humans. This depth is needed, because many bullets travel on an oblique course through the body, lengthening
the wound path to the center of the body. Also, bullets often pass through other body parts, such as extremities, held up in front of the trunk for defense or offense. Possibly, the bullet must still be able to penetrate to the body center and once there, have
enough wounding potential left to disrupt the vital structures.
the wound path to the center of the body. Also, bullets often pass through other body parts, such as extremities, held up in front of the trunk for defense or offense. Possibly, the bullet must still be able to penetrate to the body center and once there, have
enough wounding potential left to disrupt the vital structures.
actually, it's not, on the street, anyway, plenty of sources prove that 90+% of the time, you dont have to hit them with ANY bullet, to make them flee, and 80% of the time, you don't have to fire at all. it's quite rare, really, less than 1 time in 20 attacks, that you have to shoot him into the ground with repeated, powerful hits to the chest, or blow off his head.
bs on the 12" being "required", I can kill you very dead with bullets that "only" penetrate 4" into your chest.
bs on the 12" being "required", I can kill you very dead with bullets that "only" penetrate 4" into your chest.
Lynn R Allen
New member
Another factor that I didn't see commented upon is that folks who live in colder climates often wear heavy clothing in the winter that reduces the effectiveness of many otherwise excellent rounds. JHPs can apparently be prevented from expanding by a winter coat and/or heavy Carrhart work-clothing. My local gun dealer encouraged me to load .38 Special +P Hornady Critical Defense rounds for self-protection, especially during Michigan winters. (These are manufactured with a plastic insert inside the hollow-point to make them properly expand if fired through heavy clothing). Seems plausible to me, so I took the advice.
