Interesting thread on another forum... your opinion?

[JrFreak]

Someone on another gun forum posted a question on whether or not a LEO could ask you for your carry permit/license if he suspected you were carrying do to printing.

I'm guessing yes because carrying a concealed firearm is a felony unless you have a permit. Maybe the answer if different by state?

What is your opinion or fact?

 

[dbaierl]

If a Leo approaches you in Mn. You do have to inform.
I see it as a small thing. Not something that will get me up in a roar.
But, because of the laws, I think your location will play a part in the Leo's profile decison to ask.
I also think concealed is concealed. So that would mean I didn't do my job.

 

[CPW1265]

I'm going to answer your question with a question.
Scenario: you live in a state that isn't to fond of firearms but allows citizens obtain concealed carry firearms permits and you are a police officer in a convenience store (7-11, wawa, etc) and you observe a customer in the store leaning over to get a package of candy on one of the lower shelves and from under the jacket you notice a barrel of a gun peeking underneath the jacket. You can't tell if it is in a holster or not. What do you do?
A.) Let the guy go and he/she might possibly attempt to commit robbery in the store because try didn't notice you in the store.
B.) Ask the individual to place his hands in a visible location and ask if they have a firearm on their person and if they are possessing it legally by means of a concealed carry permit. Have them draw and present the firearm to make sure it is the same firearm as indicated on the permit (if the state, city has that info on the permit) and then after 5 min return everything to the second amendment practicing-law-abiding citizen and send them on their way.

LEOs have the ability to stop that individual because of probable cause that the barrel is from a firearm , real or fake. And is not sure of the intentions of that individual to use that firearm . If you were to get stopped in this scenario I would not be mad, agitated, annoyed, etc at the police officer but glad that they did their job and investigated a serious situation .
As a LEO I would rather encounter the second scenario 1000 times then the first one once.
You may go out of your way to obtain a permit but not everyone does it and that is what ruins it for everyone else.
If encountered in this type of scenario please don't give the officer a hard time but rather give them thanks for doing it. Next time it might not be the same and the first scenario might pan out.
And also make sure your CCW is actually concealed LOL

 

[mrjam2jab]

If a Leo approaches you in Mn. You do have to inform.
I see it as a small thing. Not something that will get me up in a roar.
But, because of the laws, I think your location will play a part in the Leo's profile decison to ask.
I also think concealed is concealed. So that would mean I didn't do my job.

No...you don't. Not in MN. Only in AK, AR, LA, MI, NC, NE, OH, OK, SC, TX.

 

[jimmyjohn]

oregon permits

In the state of Oregon your permit is linked to your drivers license, and your car registration. So if you get stopped the officer will some times ask if you have a firearm with you. I have four cars that are registered in my name and have been stopped in all of them but have only been asked once by an officer when I was driving( my wife was driving the other times). Someone had been giving him a bad time that day I could tell. I spoke calmly that i was not carrying that night (unusual) He ran my plates because I live in a high end neighborhood and was driving my beat up work truck.
He let me go with a warning but tailed me the next night make sure I had repaired the burned out license plate light.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Someone on another gun forum posted a question on whether or not a LEO could ask you for your carry permit/license if he suspected you were carrying do to printing.

I'm guessing yes because carrying a concealed firearm is a felony unless you have a permit. Maybe the answer if different by state?

What is your opinion or fact?

First, the fact is that if the person is in lawful possession of the firearm and not committing any other crime with it, concealing the firearm is only a misdemeanor in Pennsylvania and not a felony:

§ 6106. Firearms not to be carried without a license.
(a) Offense defined.--
(1) Except as provided in paragraph (2), any person who
carries a firearm in any vehicle or any person who carries a
firearm concealed on or about his person, except in his place
of abode or fixed place of business, without a valid and
lawfully issued license under this chapter commits a felony
of the third degree.
(2) A person who is otherwise eligible to possess a
valid license under this chapter but carries a firearm in any
vehicle or any person who carries a firearm concealed on or
about his person, except in his place of abode or fixed place
of business, without a valid and lawfully issued license and
has not committed any other criminal violation commits a
misdemeanor of the first degree.

In Pennsylvania, if the officer saw the gun briefly and then it became concealed, they would certainly have RAS to believe the crime of unlawfully concealing the firearm had been committed and could, lawfully, demand to see the permit and if the person refused to show the permit the officer would write the citation for the misdemeanor and let the court sort it out.

However... an officer would have to actually see part of the firearm... they would have no legal reason to stop a person because they thought the outline showing through their shirt might or might not be a gun.

 

[MNBlackjack]

No...you don't. Not in MN. Only in AK, AR, LA, MI, NC, NE, OH, OK, SC, TX.

Also in MN it is a Permit to Carry. Open or concealed it is up to you.

 

[mrjam2jab]

First, the fact is that if the person is in lawful possession of the firearm and not committing any other crime with it, concealing the firearm is only a misdemeanor in Pennsylvania and not a felony:



In Pennsylvania, if the officer saw the gun briefly and then it became concealed, they would certainly have RAS to believe the crime of unlawfully concealing the firearm had been committed and could, lawfully, demand to see the permit and if the person refused to show the permit the officer would write the citation for the misdemeanor and let the court sort it out.

However... an officer would have to actually see part of the firearm... they would have no legal reason to stop a person because they thought the outline showing through their shirt might or might not be a gun.

I think this may be the first time I have to disagree with you....:biggrin:

Presence of a gun is not automatically suspicion of a crime...asking for a LTCF while carrying is akin to asking for a drivers license just because you are seen operating a motor vehicle.

 

[Nightmare45]

I am a supporter of LEO's, however in the past LEO's have delt drugs, committed criminal acts and they all carry exposed weapons and are not required to prove they are a police or sheriffs officer. Same line applies to citizens, suspicion should be innocent until proven guilty.

 

[Axeanda45]

I think this may be the first time I have to disagree with you....:biggrin:

Presence of a gun is not automatically suspicion of a crime...asking for a LTCF while carrying is akin to asking for a drivers license just because you are seen operating a motor vehicle.

This is a hard one to nail down..... dont know which of you is correct in this case.... In an actual encounter in PA, btwn myself and an LEO, my complying with a request to see LTCF would probably hinge almost entirely on how I was asked.... and the attitude of the LEO.(I do have a PA non-res permit)

Even here in OH where I have had a few run-ins with LEO WHO DID NOT HAVE A CLUE and came REAL close to having Federal charges brought against them..... if I am asked nicely in a future interaction, I may very well show them ID/Permit.... even if the law states/supports me not having to in that situation.... The attitude I am confronted with is almost always reflected back upon the one who gave it.......... If you act like an a$$hole, you will be treated as such.

 

[NavyLCDR]

I think this may be the first time I have to disagree with you....:biggrin:

Presence of a gun is not automatically suspicion of a crime...asking for a LTCF while carrying is akin to asking for a drivers license just because you are seen operating a motor vehicle.

Good point. You might very well be correct in Pennsylvania, because Pennsylvania statutes says this:

§ 6122. Proof of license and exception.
(a) General rule.--When carrying a firearm concealed on or
about one's person or in a vehicle, an individual licensed to
carry a firearm shall, upon lawful demand of a law enforcement
officer, produce the license for inspection. Failure to produce
such license either at the time of arrest or at the preliminary
hearing shall create a rebuttable presumption of nonlicensure.

The words highlighted above would tend to cause me to agree with you. This is different than Washington state law which is:

RCW 9.41.050: Carrying firearms.

(b) Every licensee shall have his or her concealed pistol license in his or her immediate possession at all times that he or she is required by this section to have a concealed pistol license and shall display the same upon demand to any police officer or to any other person when and if required by law to do so. Any violation of this subsection (1)(b) shall be a class 1 civil infraction under chapter 7.80 RCW and shall be punished accordingly pursuant to chapter 7.80 RCW and the infraction rules for courts of limited jurisdiction.

In Washington the requirement is only upon demand. In Pennsylvania the requirement is upon lawful demand. Two different requirements because of that single added word. Pennsylvania statute would indicate that the officer would have to have a reason to ask for it, whereas Washington statute indicates that the officer needs no reason.

And, like you said, the mere concealing of the firearm gives the officer NO reasonable suspicion to indicate the person is not licensed to do so.

 

[SGB]

I think this may be the first time I have to disagree with you....:biggrin:

Presence of a gun is not automatically suspicion of a crime...asking for a LTCF while carrying is akin to asking for a drivers license just because you are seen operating a motor vehicle.

I would have to agree.

 

[FN1910]

Presence of a gun is not automatically suspicion of a crime...asking for a LTCF while carrying is akin to asking for a drivers license just because you are seen operating a motor vehicle.

This is a good comparision and got me to thinking. What if a LEO saw someone smoking who looked underage. Would it be OK if he asked the person how old they are? The same for driving or carrying a gun, would appearance of age justify asking and how old do they have to look? I know of one strore that caught so much grief about carding young looking people for buying cigarettes that they now make everyone show id even if you are 60 and look 70. LEO used to be able to use a lot of judgement on asking about drivers license if you looked young or anything else like that but so many complaints about discrimination have come up until we are going to reach the place where either everyone gets stopped for everything or noone gets stopped for anything.

We will soon reach the point that if a LEO sees you printing or catches a glimpse he will have no choice but to ask for a permit if one is required. I know that we all say that we should be able to carry but this same thought is going to carry over to many other things and we are not going to be happy about that.

 

[mrjam2jab]

Not to split hairs, but in SC you have to inform the officer if you have a Concealed Carry Permit, even if you are not carrying. You do not actually have to inform the officer if you are carrying.

mmmm....that's not how I read it...

SECTION 23-31-215. Issuance of permits

(K) A permit holder must have his permit identification card in his possession whenever he carries a concealable weapon. When carrying a concealable weapon pursuant to Article 4 of Chapter 31 of Title 23, a permit holder must inform a law enforcement officer of the fact that he is a permit holder and present the permit identification card when an officer (1) identifies himself as a law enforcement officer and (2) requests identification or a driver’s license from a permit holder. A permit holder immediately must report the loss or theft of a permit identification card to SLED headquarters. A person who violates the provisions of this subsection is guilty of a misdemeanor and, upon conviction, must be fined twenty five dollars.

 

[FN1910]

Not to split hairs, but in SC you have to inform the officer if you have a Concealed Carry Permit, even if you are not carrying. You do not actually have to inform the officer if you are carrying.

The first I have heard of that. My interpretation is that you do not have to inform if the gun is in your console since you are not carrying under the provisions of your permit but as an ordinary citizen. You are correct that you only have to present you permit and not the gun but the assumption is that if you notify one of your permit then you are also carrying, otherwise you do not have to notify him of your permit.

 

[ArkhmAsylm]

If a Leo approaches you in Mn. You do have to inform.
I see it as a small thing. Not something that will get me up in a roar.
But, because of the laws, I think your location will play a part in the Leo's profile decison to ask.
I also think concealed is concealed. So that would mean I didn't do my job.

Correction: If a LEO in Mn asks you if you're carrying, you have to tell. It is good etiquette to offer the info if the LEO only asks for identification, but not required.

As mentioned by another, Mn is a Permit to Carry state which allows for CC or OC.

 

[CathyInBlue]

Could someone give the run down surrounding this question for legal residents of Indiana being approached by a LEO in Indiana? I've looked for this info from time to time and have yet to find anything remotely definitive.

 

[mrjam2jab]

Could someone give the run down surrounding this question for legal residents of Indiana being approached by a LEO in Indiana? I've looked for this info from time to time and have yet to find anything remotely definitive.

IN is not a Must Inform state. Can't find it in the statute because it isn't there.