Smokewagon
New member
Here in Texas, I abide by the Texas Concealed Handgun Laws. If a businsess wants to bar CHL holders from their premises, the state says they must do it with a compliant state approved sign. I follow the rules, so can they.
Ignoring Gun Buster signage.
- Thread starter Ruger357SP101
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doublebarr
New member
You're just some kind of special, aren't you.
And no sir, read the following and realize you started out from the get go way beyond what you want to claim now.
Have a LOVELY day funny man.
Ruger357SP101
Banned
I like your signature.
I feel that if we gun owners set the bar high for ourselves, go out of our way to obey the law and follow even the rules we dont want to, that we leave no room for anyone to bring accusations against us.
If we follow the rules and laws and present ourselves as honorable, then the voting public who doesnt own guns who arent in the Brady pack already can see that the crap that Brady pushes out is all lies.
If we behave unruly...if we disgregard the rights of others just because we can...what does that say about us?
If we seem to be 'unruly' then arent we giving the Brady campaign exactly what it wants to see ?
PaxMentis
New member
Then let's hope they never read what you consider to be rational and polite discussion.
They might think we are all condescending and arrogant a-holes.
Ruger357SP101
Banned
Well, heres what I know.
I spent years disregarding the rights of others and being an general pain in the ass.
One day I grew up.
I dont speed.
I dont litter.
I wear a seatbelt every time.
Why?
To follow the rules.
Not because I fear anyone, but to set an example..to show my children and grandchildren that there is a thing called honor....integrity....and it is more valuable than gold and silver or any material thing.
I cant control what happens to me in this lifetime.
But I CAN be someone who good people will respect.
And I certainly can make sure not to give my enemies evidence against me.
If that makes me funny or special, as you claim, then so be it.
I just think it means I made a decision one day to do the RIGHT thing and stop being a child.
Take that for what you will.
Ruger357SP101
Banned
Yeah....grasping at every straw we can to justify disregarding someone elses rights, I see ;-)
I am condescending where it is called for.
Seeya
New member
privileges requires a granting of by authority.
rights requires you to do nothing to excercise it.
ccw permit/license is to keep from being arrested as you exercise your right to carry
SCOTUS:
Murdock v. Pennsylvania, 319 US 105
No state shall convert a liberty into a privilege, license it, and attach
a fee to it.
"A state may not impose a charge for the enjoyment of a right granted by
Federal constitution. at 113, (1943).
Shuttlesworth v. Birmingham, 373 US 262
If a state converts a liberty into a privilege the citizen can engage in
the right with impunity.
Miranda v. Arizona, 384 US 436
"Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be NO
rule making or legislation which
would abrogate them."
Boyd v U.S., 116 US 635. "...constitutional provisions for the
security of person and property should be liberally construed ... It is
the duty of the courts to be watchful for the constitutional rights of
citizens, and against any stealthy encroachment thereon."
U.S. v. Morris. 125 F 322, 325. "Every citizen and freeman is endowed
with certain rights and privileges to enjoy which no written law or statute is
required. These are the fundamental or natural rights, recognized among
all free people."
Fuentes v. Shevin, 107 US 67 (1983).
"A waiver of constitutional rights in any context must, at the very
least, be clear; contractual language relied upon must on its face amount
to a waiver."
Mugler v. Kansas 123 U.S. 623, 659-60.
"Our system of government, based upon the individuality and intelligence
of the Citizen, the state does not claim to control him, except as his
conduct to others, leaving him the sole judge as to all that only affects
himself."
Supreme Law School : E-mail : Box 036 : Msg 03678
The above is common law.
Yeah, I am real extremist. I cover my gun up, go about my business, business owner is happy, I'm happy, nobody cares. Real extremist on my part.
Paul Helmke could be standing right next to me reading the Rules of Conduct Sign at the entrance to the mall and my concealed firearm would be giving him no "ammunition" at all for anything because it is concealed!
Why? Because I'm not screaming and foaming at the mouth and jumping up and down about anybody's rights or making a big deal out of something that is nothing.
And, instead of making references to adultery, which is within the bounds of what a husband and wife vow to each other, and stealing which is against the law, and "keep off the grass".... why don't you just stick with the topic you brought up.
And this whole argument you have about us fighting for our rights but carrying past a no firearms sign.... there is a huge difference between a shop owner expressing their desire in regards to firearms, and the government legislating the right to carry firearms away from everybody.
BTW, I obey keep off the grass signs, because to not do so has the potential to damage the property of another. The only way my concealed handgun is going to damage anything of anybody else's is if I have to use it in self defense. And, if I am fighting a criminal, I would probably not be too concerned about keeping off the grass either...
Hammerhead
Outta my mind, back soon.
I'm going to take exception to everything you've said here, Ruger. By your mantra, I'm a rule breaker. Absolutely. Here's the reason why. I also live in a state where no gun signs have no force of law. I carry everywhere I'm legally allowed. I know the law, and where my state legislature has codified are legally off limits.
There is no way in HECK I'm going to allow some spineless business owner to believe that a felon is going to turn around and not do some nefarious deed to their business because of some sign. Why? Because that same business owner has now attempted to disarm everyone. However, they don't see the alternative, which is to provide security for their patrons. Are they paying for private armed security? Are they screening everyone that comes in the door? NO. The furthest they go, because it doesn't cost them more than the paper it's printed on, is to post a meaningless sign saying no one can carry. I value my life more than I value some BS feel-good sign. My LIFE (notice I didn't say my right to carry) is MORE important that some policy or rule.
Reason number two that I'll carry is because the ONLY enforceable property right the owner/lease holder has is for me to "pay now", "leave" and/or "don't return". Property rights must show a duty to comply that is enforceable. Sorry, but your "rule" isn't a right. Property rights are defined as the free possession and use of property without interference. By carrying my sidearm into a business, I am not denying them the possession or use, nor am I interfering with other customers being there. However, by attempting to request that I not bring a sidearm in (and it is a request), they are interfering with my property rights.
Now, I freely admit that there are states that have defined and codified the fact that signage is legal and must be obeyed. These are enforceable and punishable by law. In those states, where one must follow legally, I personally agree that I would not be, as a law abiding citizen, carrying into those establishments. I would probably not carry because I wouldn't spend money there. However, because I carry my sidearm in my state more often than anywhere else, I will follow the laws of my state.
I also don't give a flying fornication what the Brady bunch says, or does, or cares about. Nor do I care what any other group of their ilk thinks. If you believe that people will fall all over themselves in panic and terror because some mouthpiece stands and denounces carry, then the best option is to stand up and be a mouthpiece for the truth and the rights of your fellow gun owners. They stand up against us. I do my part by carrying my sidearm (OC, 95% of the time) and educating the public one interaction, one encounter, one business at a time. I don't have the resources the antis might have. But I'm a voice nonetheless. Why can't you be? Why do you need to bust our chops for what you perceive as wrongs being done to the public, especially when every circumstance is different and may not apply to every carrier?
And as a final note, just in case you wonder about one voice. I personally found a business I shop at, and carried into on numerous occasions, that had posted "gun buster" signs. I cringed, and read the wording on the signs. Not only did the words they use make absolutely no sense, they couldn't even be bothered to look up the state laws they were posting them under. This was because the store was a chain, with it's corporate HQ in another state. I ignored their sign (although I politely went back to my car and retrieved a sweatshirt to cover up) and carried anyway. I attempted to discuss the matter with the local management. They shrugged and said "it's a corporate decision." So, I politely and strongly e-mailed the corporate offices and informed them not only of the lack of law that they were trying to lay their signage on, but the lack of sense it made to keep those willing to abide by such requests out of their stores when criminals wouldn't listen. I also stated that I'd be notifying a lot of other gun carriers to avoid their stores, and that I wouldn't be in either until the signs were gone.
They responded that they hadn't thought about the fact that the law (even in their own state) didn't do as described in their signs, they expressed their unwillingness to upset law abiding citizens (and paying customers) and immediately removed all the signs from all their stores. Granted, I wasn't the only one who contacted them, but I was the first, and I was the one to get the first response. One voice can change the rules. Imagine what all our voices together can do?
There is no way in HECK I'm going to allow some spineless business owner to believe that a felon is going to turn around and not do some nefarious deed to their business because of some sign. Why? Because that same business owner has now attempted to disarm everyone. However, they don't see the alternative, which is to provide security for their patrons. Are they paying for private armed security? Are they screening everyone that comes in the door? NO. The furthest they go, because it doesn't cost them more than the paper it's printed on, is to post a meaningless sign saying no one can carry. I value my life more than I value some BS feel-good sign. My LIFE (notice I didn't say my right to carry) is MORE important that some policy or rule.
Reason number two that I'll carry is because the ONLY enforceable property right the owner/lease holder has is for me to "pay now", "leave" and/or "don't return". Property rights must show a duty to comply that is enforceable. Sorry, but your "rule" isn't a right. Property rights are defined as the free possession and use of property without interference. By carrying my sidearm into a business, I am not denying them the possession or use, nor am I interfering with other customers being there. However, by attempting to request that I not bring a sidearm in (and it is a request), they are interfering with my property rights.
Now, I freely admit that there are states that have defined and codified the fact that signage is legal and must be obeyed. These are enforceable and punishable by law. In those states, where one must follow legally, I personally agree that I would not be, as a law abiding citizen, carrying into those establishments. I would probably not carry because I wouldn't spend money there. However, because I carry my sidearm in my state more often than anywhere else, I will follow the laws of my state.
I also don't give a flying fornication what the Brady bunch says, or does, or cares about. Nor do I care what any other group of their ilk thinks. If you believe that people will fall all over themselves in panic and terror because some mouthpiece stands and denounces carry, then the best option is to stand up and be a mouthpiece for the truth and the rights of your fellow gun owners. They stand up against us. I do my part by carrying my sidearm (OC, 95% of the time) and educating the public one interaction, one encounter, one business at a time. I don't have the resources the antis might have. But I'm a voice nonetheless. Why can't you be? Why do you need to bust our chops for what you perceive as wrongs being done to the public, especially when every circumstance is different and may not apply to every carrier?
And as a final note, just in case you wonder about one voice. I personally found a business I shop at, and carried into on numerous occasions, that had posted "gun buster" signs. I cringed, and read the wording on the signs. Not only did the words they use make absolutely no sense, they couldn't even be bothered to look up the state laws they were posting them under. This was because the store was a chain, with it's corporate HQ in another state. I ignored their sign (although I politely went back to my car and retrieved a sweatshirt to cover up) and carried anyway. I attempted to discuss the matter with the local management. They shrugged and said "it's a corporate decision." So, I politely and strongly e-mailed the corporate offices and informed them not only of the lack of law that they were trying to lay their signage on, but the lack of sense it made to keep those willing to abide by such requests out of their stores when criminals wouldn't listen. I also stated that I'd be notifying a lot of other gun carriers to avoid their stores, and that I wouldn't be in either until the signs were gone.
They responded that they hadn't thought about the fact that the law (even in their own state) didn't do as described in their signs, they expressed their unwillingness to upset law abiding citizens (and paying customers) and immediately removed all the signs from all their stores. Granted, I wasn't the only one who contacted them, but I was the first, and I was the one to get the first response. One voice can change the rules. Imagine what all our voices together can do?
Ruger357SP101
Banned
You willingly and knowingly disgregard the rights of others who dont want your gun on THEIR PRIVATE property.
irrelevant.
If you cheat on your wife and no evidence exists that she'll ever find, did you do anything wrong or not?
Well thats pretty stupid...and obvious. You dont CARE about anyone elses rights, so why would YOU make a big deal out of YOUR trampling on them?
Ahhh.
So do you trample a mans yard who has a 'Keep off Grass' sign posted?
And it is the same type of issue.
Either a man DOES have honor and integrity...or he DOESNT.
Either he goes out of his way to follow rules and respect others..or he DOESNT.
clearly you dont.
Wrong.
In one case you get to go to jail possibly.
In the other your just trampling on someone elses rights....something YOU dont seem to see any problem with.
This is the way I see it.
As the owner or renter of a property (or their designated representative), they have every right to control and limit what happens on their property.
My presence on their property is both optional and voluntary- as in I don't have to be there but choose to. When I choose to be on their property, I have an obligation to abide by their wishes. If I have chosen not to do so, then I don't need to be there.
I agree with the OP on 1 point. It is, in MY OPINION, extremely hypocritical of those of us that so fiercely defend THEIR personal right to carry a firearm to so blithely ignore the right of those in legal control of a property to make the rules on said property because they disagree with it.
I don't understand the logic of trampling on the rights of others in a blind rush to express your own. THE WAY I SEE IT, if I have to deny some one else their ability to exercising their rights in the pursuit of expressing mine, then I'm the one in the wrong.
As the owner or renter of a property (or their designated representative), they have every right to control and limit what happens on their property.
My presence on their property is both optional and voluntary- as in I don't have to be there but choose to. When I choose to be on their property, I have an obligation to abide by their wishes. If I have chosen not to do so, then I don't need to be there.
I agree with the OP on 1 point. It is, in MY OPINION, extremely hypocritical of those of us that so fiercely defend THEIR personal right to carry a firearm to so blithely ignore the right of those in legal control of a property to make the rules on said property because they disagree with it.
I don't understand the logic of trampling on the rights of others in a blind rush to express your own. THE WAY I SEE IT, if I have to deny some one else their ability to exercising their rights in the pursuit of expressing mine, then I'm the one in the wrong.
Hammerhead
Outta my mind, back soon.
Hammerhead
Outta my mind, back soon.
Then why not the reverse? Why are they right to trample your Rights? You have a right to life and protection, why does that end at the front door? It doesn't.
mg1cigar
New member
What an awesome idea Trailboss!! How long have you been handing out these cards, and where can I get my hands on some? I'd love to do the same.
Ruger357SP101
Banned
Whats new?
Quite probably.
And so when your rights are violated, as you choose to voilate the right of this business owner who has decided he DOESNT want your gun on HIS property, dont expect those who do respect this mans right to be an idiot by posting a sign to come to your aid.
I know I wont.
Yeah....and you only have ONE store in town there, right?
And there ya go...you only obey what you HAVE to obey to keep from going to jail.
Which is precisely what Im talking about.
What else do you do that may not be right and honorable but isnt unlawful ?
Im busting your chops, as you put it because your type is a stain on all of us who RESPECT the RIGHTS of others as WE WANT OUR RIGHTS RESPECTED !
You have NO BUSINESS crying about YOUR rights not being violated while YOU YOURSELF VIOLATE the rights of others !
And you set an example that says that gunpackers only do what they have to do to keep from going to jail. They have no respect for NON gun owners rights to post a sign that tells them NO GUNS...which is exactly what the Brady Campaign would love to see.
I would have disarmed then went back in.
If you didnt want to honor THEIR right to tell you NO GUNS on their property then just walk away...find another business to patronize.
And if they had realized you disregarded their sign and brought a gun in anyway? Would they have been so willing to hear your voice?
I doubt it.
Maybe they should be informed that you did so they can make a more educated decision?
Ruger357SP101
Banned
Nice try but the issue there is I could get away with not obeying any of those very easily.
Its not my fault that the laws here are different than your state about CCW.
If someone tells me not to do something on their PRIVATE property, I will comply or simply not be on their property.
Thats just killing you, isnt it.
Ruger357SP101
Banned
Well said.
I dont expect we all will agree on every single point, but overall I think most of us agree that if we want our rights to be honored, we should be setting the example by honoring the rights of others...even if we disagree with their views.
Ruger357SP101
Banned
Complete BS, friend.
There are shops all over town you could go to instead.
By your nonsense NO ONE is allowed to prohibit ANYthing on their own property because of your 'rights'.
Gonna bring that stack of porn into a church assembly next just because you have rights?
Hammerhead
Outta my mind, back soon.
I take offense to you attempting to question my integrity.
I also wish you wouldn't have picked and chosen to twist and eliminate my words to fit your agenda. Show me where I have a duty to abide by a rule.
My rights aren't violated by no guns signs. I don't allow a "rule" to violate my rights, as "rules" aren't capable. I don't just "cover" when no gun signs are present, I keep my sidearm in plain view. They can ask me to leave, and I will. That's the right they have.
And for the record, I did inform the company when I e-mailed them that I carried anyway. Not a peep about breaking their "rules" when they responded.
I stance on the question was in my post.
"My presence on their property is both optional and voluntary- as in I don't have to be there but choose to. When I choose to be on their property, I have an obligation to abide by their wishes. If I have chosen not to do so, then I don't need to be there."
When you go onto their property, it's their house and their rules. If you don't want to follow their rules, simply don't go there.
They aren't saying that you can't own a gun. They aren't saying that you can't carry a gun. They ARE, however, saying that they prefer that you don't carry a gun on their property.
Look at it this way.
If you don't want folks smoking in your living room, then I shouldn't fire up a cigar while sitting on your couch.
Why shouldn't I?
That's the same principle. I am over the legal age to buy tobacco products and can do so if I wish.
What gives you, in the example above, the right to say that I can't smoke if I want to?
(Insert your answer here.)
THAT'S what gives them the right to say they don't want you carrying a gun at their place of business.
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