Ignoring Gun Buster signage.

[Ruger357SP101]

lets say, you are in anytown usa out for a nice evening dinner and movie.

So you park in the public lot and have a few blocks to walk to dinner.
Now after dinner you have a few minuets before the movie so you other half decides she wants to do some window shopping.
Now a couple of stores have no gun signs.
do you wait outside like a dog, or run back to the car to lock your gun away?
what if you want to go inside too?

I wont...and dont.
If they have a sign I cant go in here...and I certainly will not disarm over it.
Ive waited 'like a dog' on many occasions while the wife runs into some store she has to go into.
Most of the time she finds another store to buy from. We dont go into the malls at all, even though Im positive no one would ever know Im carrying.

The issue is the right of the private property owner or the one leasing it.
If theyve posted No Guns, and they dont want any guns on that particular property, how much respect are we giving them ?
And we expect them to respect OUR rights come voting time?
They wont.
And we wonder why its so easy for the Brady nuts to dupe these people when we are giving them more ammunition for their cause.
Well, some of us are.

 

[Ruger357SP101]

I agree, the only signs I pay attention to are the LEGAL signage posted on a building. For 1 if Im carrying concealed, they do not know Im carrying anyways, no harm intended, and no harm caused, but if I say walk into a Govt building and ignore the law, it puts that little ink blot on our small society.

Ok...but again, isnt this just you obeying the rules you have to obey just enough to keep from breaking the 'law', but not really caring about the rights of the property owner himself?

Secondly, are we that willing to financially support someone whom we can be sure is voting against our rights at the polls every chance they get.

I have to say you make a point and at the same time, it is a bit of a double standard, can you HONESTLY say you would not walk into a Grocery store in a "bad neighboorhood" that a family member may live in, and leave your gun in the car just because a hand written sign is on the door that says "No guns allowed" or a sign other than an authorized NGA sign? Just my 2 cents.

I absolutely am not legally allowed here to go in of theirs a sign...and secondly I personally have decided regardless to not support businesses that have a sign.
The only time Ive disarmed since deciding this was at Red Lobster for Valentines day and that isnt because they are posted...its because they serve alcohol and the state law says I cant carry inside..thats not the restaurants fault.

And to answer your question specifically, *IF* I had to go into a bad neighborhood with a family member for some insane reason I simply would sit in the car. Ive done it quite a bit already.

So no double standard here at all. You simply made inaccurate assumptions.

 

[Ruger357SP101]

I carry Link Removed with me so when I come across a business with a no-gun sign I give one to the owner/manager.

Definitely.
I made up some big flyers because the ones Ive seen for sale are just little cards. I want to make sure they see it. I carry in 2 or 3, ask for the manager, talk to them for 15 minutes or so, get a corporate number of its a chain, then bombard every branch I can find with the standard email hoping to get some sympathy from the ranks by letting them know these signs get them targeted by felons who will know that no law abiding gun packer will be inside (here at least).

 

[doublebarr]

"Ignoring" signs may not mean you are breaking laws

It depends on the laws in your state. See below:

Link Removed

2. Carrying of a concealed firearm in a location specified in subdivisions (1) to (17) of subsection 1 of this section by any individual who holds a concealed carry endorsement issued pursuant to sections 571.101 to 571.121 shall not be a criminal act but may subject the person to denial to the premises or removal from the premises.

Our law states that if it's truly concealed, then there is no issue as it's not a criminal act. :girl_wink:

entire legalese:

Endorsement does not authorize concealed firearms, where--penalty for violation.
571.107. 1. A concealed carry endorsement issued pursuant to sections 571.101 to 571.121 or a concealed carry endorsement or permit issued by another state or political subdivision of another state shall authorize the person in whose name the permit or endorsement is issued to carry concealed firearms on or about his or her person or vehicle throughout the state. No driver's license or nondriver's license containing a concealed carry endorsement issued pursuant to sections 571.101 to 571.121 or a concealed carry endorsement or permit issued by another state or political subdivision of another state shall authorize any person to carry concealed firearms into:

(1) Any police, sheriff, or highway patrol office or station without the consent of the chief law enforcement officer in charge of that office or station. Possession of a firearm in a vehicle on the premises of the office or station shall not be a criminal offense so long as the firearm is not removed from the vehicle or brandished while the vehicle is on the premises;

(2) Within twenty-five feet of any polling place on any election day. Possession of a firearm in a vehicle on the premises of the polling place shall not be a criminal offense so long as the firearm is not removed from the vehicle or brandished while the vehicle is on the premises;

(3) The facility of any adult or juvenile detention or correctional institution, prison or jail. Possession of a firearm in a vehicle on the premises of any adult, juvenile detention, or correctional institution, prison or jail shall not be a criminal offense so long as the firearm is not removed from the vehicle or brandished while the vehicle is on the premises;

(4) Any courthouse solely occupied by the circuit, appellate or supreme court, or any courtrooms, administrative offices, libraries or other rooms of any such court whether or not such court solely occupies the building in question. This subdivision shall also include, but not be limited to, any juvenile, family, drug, or other court offices, any room or office wherein any of the courts or offices listed in this subdivision are temporarily conducting any business within the jurisdiction of such courts or offices, and such other locations in such manner as may be specified by supreme court rule pursuant to subdivision (6) of this subsection. Nothing in this subdivision shall preclude those persons listed in subdivision (1) of subsection 2 of section 571.030 while within their jurisdiction and on duty, those persons listed in subdivisions (2), (4), and (10) of subsection 2 of section 571.030, or such other persons who serve in a law enforcement capacity for a court as may be specified by supreme court rule pursuant to subdivision (6) of this subsection from carrying a concealed firearm within any of the areas described in this subdivision. Possession of a firearm in a vehicle on the premises of any of the areas listed in this subdivision shall not be a criminal offense so long as the firearm is not removed from the vehicle or brandished while the vehicle is on the premises;

(5) Any meeting of the governing body of a unit of local government; or any meeting of the general assembly or a committee of the general assembly, except that nothing in this subdivision shall preclude a member of the body holding a valid concealed carry endorsement from carrying a concealed firearm at a meeting of the body which he or she is a member. Possession of a firearm in a vehicle on the premises shall not be a criminal offense so long as the firearm is not removed from the vehicle or brandished while the vehicle is on the premises;

(6) The general assembly, supreme court, county or municipality may by rule, administrative regulation, or ordinance prohibit or limit the carrying of concealed firearms by endorsement holders in that portion of a building owned, leased or controlled by that unit of government. Any portion of a building in which the carrying of concealed firearms is prohibited or limited shall be clearly identified by signs posted at the entrance to the restricted area. The statute, rule or ordinance shall exempt any building used for public housing by private persons, highways or rest areas, firing ranges, and private dwellings owned, leased, or controlled by that unit of government from any restriction on the carrying or possession of a firearm. The statute, rule or ordinance shall not specify any criminal penalty for its violation but may specify that persons violating the statute, rule or ordinance may be denied entrance to the building, ordered to leave the building and if employees of the unit of government, be subjected to disciplinary measures for violation of the provisions of the statute, rule or ordinance. The provisions of this subdivision shall not apply to any other unit of government;

(7) Any establishment licensed to dispense intoxicating liquor for consumption on the premises, which portion is primarily devoted to that purpose, without the consent of the owner or manager. The provisions of this subdivision shall not apply to the licensee of said establishment. The provisions of this subdivision shall not apply to any bona fide restaurant open to the general public having dining facilities for not less than fifty persons and that receives at least fifty-one percent of its gross annual income from the dining facilities by the sale of food. This subdivision does not prohibit the possession of a firearm in a vehicle on the premises of the establishment and shall not be a criminal offense so long as the firearm is not removed from the vehicle or brandished while the vehicle is on the premises. Nothing in this subdivision authorizes any individual who has been issued a concealed carry endorsement to possess any firearm while intoxicated;

(8) Any area of an airport to which access is controlled by the inspection of persons and property. Possession of a firearm in a vehicle on the premises of the airport shall not be a criminal offense so long as the firearm is not removed from the vehicle or brandished while the vehicle is on the premises;

(9) Any place where the carrying of a firearm is prohibited by federal law;

(10) Any higher education institution or elementary or secondary school facility without the consent of the governing body of the higher education institution or a school official or the district school board. Possession of a firearm in a vehicle on the premises of any higher education institution or elementary or secondary school facility shall not be a criminal offense so long as the firearm is not removed from the vehicle or brandished while the vehicle is on the premises;

(11) Any portion of a building used as a child-care facility without the consent of the manager. Nothing in this subdivision shall prevent the operator of a child-care facility in a family home from owning or possessing a firearm or a driver's license or nondriver's license containing a concealed carry endorsement;

(12) Any riverboat gambling operation accessible by the public without the consent of the owner or manager pursuant to rules promulgated by the gaming commission. Possession of a firearm in a vehicle on the premises of a riverboat gambling operation shall not be a criminal offense so long as the firearm is not removed from the vehicle or brandished while the vehicle is on the premises;

(13) Any gated area of an amusement park. Possession of a firearm in a vehicle on the premises of the amusement park shall not be a criminal offense so long as the firearm is not removed from the vehicle or brandished while the vehicle is on the premises;

(14) Any church or other place of religious worship without the consent of the minister or person or persons representing the religious organization that exercises control over the place of religious worship. Possession of a firearm in a vehicle on the premises shall not be a criminal offense so long as the firearm is not removed from the vehicle or brandished while the vehicle is on the premises;

(15) Any private property whose owner has posted the premises as being off-limits to concealed firearms by means of one or more signs displayed in a conspicuous place of a minimum size of eleven inches by fourteen inches with the writing thereon in letters of not less than one inch. The owner, business or commercial lessee, manager of a private business enterprise, or any other organization, entity, or person may prohibit persons holding a concealed carry endorsement from carrying concealed firearms on the premises and may prohibit employees, not authorized by the employer, holding a concealed carry endorsement from carrying concealed firearms on the property of the employer. If the building or the premises are open to the public, the employer of the business enterprise shall post signs on or about the premises if carrying a concealed firearm is prohibited. Possession of a firearm in a vehicle on the premises shall not be a criminal offense so long as the firearm is not removed from the vehicle or brandished while the vehicle is on the premises. An employer may prohibit employees or other persons holding a concealed carry endorsement from carrying a concealed firearm in vehicles owned by the employer;

(16) Any sports arena or stadium with a seating capacity of five thousand or more. Possession of a firearm in a vehicle on the premises shall not be a criminal offense so long as the firearm is not removed from the vehicle or brandished while the vehicle is on the premises;

(17) Any hospital accessible by the public. Possession of a firearm in a vehicle on the premises of a hospital shall not be a criminal offense so long as the firearm is not removed from the vehicle or brandished while the vehicle is on the premises.

2. Carrying of a concealed firearm in a location specified in subdivisions (1) to (17) of subsection 1 of this section by any individual who holds a concealed carry endorsement issued pursuant to sections 571.101 to 571.121 shall not be a criminal act but may subject the person to denial to the premises or removal from the premises. If such person refuses to leave the premises and a peace officer is summoned, such person may be issued a citation for an amount not to exceed one hundred dollars for the first offense. If a second citation for a similar violation occurs within a six-month period, such person shall be fined an amount not to exceed two hundred dollars and his or her endorsement to carry concealed firearms shall be suspended for a period of one year. If a third citation for a similar violation is issued within one year of the first citation, such person shall be fined an amount not to exceed five hundred dollars and shall have his or her concealed carry endorsement revoked and such person shall not be eligible for a concealed carry endorsement for a period of three years. Upon conviction of charges arising from a citation issued pursuant to this subsection, the court shall notify the sheriff of the county which issued the certificate of qualification for a concealed carry endorsement and the department of revenue. The sheriff shall suspend or revoke the certificate of qualification for a concealed carry endorsement and the department of revenue shall issue a notice of such suspension or revocation of the concealed carry endorsement and take action to remove the concealed carry endorsement from the individual's driving record. The director of revenue shall notify the licensee that he or she must apply for a new license pursuant to chapter 302 which does not contain such endorsement. A concealed carry endorsement suspension pursuant to sections 571.101 to 571.121 shall be reinstated at the time of the renewal of his or her driver's license. The notice issued by the department of revenue shall be mailed to the last known address shown on the individual's driving record. The notice is deemed received three days after mailing.

 

[Ruger357SP101]

Ruger.... Please, Please, just give us ONE actual example of your so-called "having a field-day with this crap"

Not some fake hypothetical crap, REAL EXAMPLES...........

REAL cites of ACTUAL CCW people causing all this mayhem....

I'm waiting...............

So youre actually stupid enough to think that if the Brady Campaign nuts see this something like this thread here and see that your type doesnt follow the rules and has zero respect for NON gun owners that they arent going to make a selling point of it?
Youre dumber than I thought if thats the case.

Secondly, I dont go to Brady sites..but I do see enough in the news from sites like The Young Turks to know that they ARE watching and they are using every bit of 'bad behavior' on the part of the individual they find to judge the whole.
Hell, the one video on that site had a gang of THUGS in a gunfight being blamed on US because the bartender drew a gun to stop someone in his bar who had pulled a gun !
They twist and pervert every detail they can and you are naive and blind if you dont understand that fact.
Maybe I'll find a few today and post something specific.

BTW, Private property is NOT THE SAME as Business Property...... If you INVITE the public, dont go crying when the PUBLIC, WITH ALL THEIR RIGHTS INTACT show up!

Sorry but it IS the same.
MY sister rents a big area at the local mall here. She can prohibit anyone she wants for any reason she wants from entering...sorry about your luck.
Its PRIVATE PROPERTY...ie they can do what they WANT to do as far as rules.

And to prove that fact, the MALL is NO GUNS.
So I asked law enforcement about it and explained that there was an outside entrance into her business that I could walk into instead of coming in the mall entrance.
If I do that and have HER PERMISSION to carry, then the mall has ZERO rights to stop me from carrying because SHE is leasing that area and makes the rules for it.
As long as I do not go into the mall itself, no rules/laws are being broken.

Same with housing here.
The landlord by law cannot keep me from owning guns.
Before I sign the lease he can keep guns out, once I sign it he cant.

And if a private property owner who hasnt leased the property to someone else says NO GUNs, its exactly the same issue.

 

[Ruger357SP101]

It depends on the laws in your state. See below:

Link Removed



Our law states that if it's truly concealed, then there is no issue as it's not a criminal act. :girl_wink:

entire legalese:

Thats fine. Where in my OP am I accusing anyone of breaking the law?
Here in my state I would be, but that isnt the issue that I presented, was it?

 

[Ruger357SP101]

Well, I had to comment some more.... You are very accusatory here.... Do you ACTUALLY know everyone that does these things you are complaining about personally? Do you know WHY they may be doing this thing you dislike so much? Can you read everyone's minds? WHO MADE YOU GOD?

If you dont like that some people stand up for their RIGHTS in a way you choose not to, ignore them, dont attack them like some liberal.

Wow....I guess you missed a few posts that say something like 'I'll keep carrying anyway'.
So unless your friends are lying here to cause an issue...

 

[Ruger357SP101]

I think ol' rug's head is going to pop when he reads these responses

Please.
Frankly I expected a LOT more responses by the time I got on here today.
Im amazed that so few of you did even respond...and even of the ones who did many are level headed to begin with.
NO reason at all to 'pop' based on what Ive seen so far....its assumed that a few here have no respect for others rights while they whine about their own.

 

[Ruger357SP101]

IMHO;
The OP started this thread for NO other reason but, to TROLL!

I dont remember demanding for you to read or respond here, so who is the troll?
I got tired of arguing this in two or three threads and taking them off topic, so this thread is..wow...actually trying to show some decency and respect to those OTHER threads even though I could continue to skirt the rules and keep doing what we were doing.

I didnt realize it would go on so long in the other threads or Id have started this one two days ago.

 

[doublebarr]

Thats fine. Where in my OP am I accusing anyone of breaking the law?
Here in my state I would be, but that isnt the issue that I presented, was it?

Um, maybe right here:

We need to separate ourselves from these lawless extremists who only obey the rules they cant get away with breaking so that non gun owners understand that these nuts dont speak for or represent the majority of us who own and carry guns.

When a CCWer WILLINGLY and KNOWINGLY ignores a Gunbuster sign the anti's have a field day with this crap by telling the voting public that this is exactly how gun owners are...skirting the rules as much as they want, which is precisely the image they want us to have to begin with.

These gun packers who dont have respect for non gun owners property and rights make ALL of us look bad and endanger the rights of ALL of us because our rights being taken away are just a few votes away and all it takes is a majority to void them at the polls.

Take a stand against this minority who is a blemish to the whole. Put them in their place and let the voting public know that LAW ABIDING gun owners arent whackjobs who sit around thinking about shooting 'bad cops', or even felons.
LAW ABIDING gun owners are just like everyone else, they want to live in peace with their fellow man and are simply prepared for the worst if it should ever come.

Dont let these nut extremists speak for YOU !

"Lawless" "rule breakers", etc....

Your own words in a thread titled: "Ignoring Gun Buster Signage (sic)".

 

[Ruger357SP101]

We've been round and round this topic in other threads before. You know that I disagree with those who ignore the signs. I am a strong proponent of 2A rights, but I am also a strong proponent of property owners right.

Aexanda45, you are mistaken about the distinction between business property and private property. Business property is property that has been zoned to allow a commercial business to operate on it. However, it is still private property. I know this from my experiences when I was the director of security at a northern Virginia mall. The property owner can still make restrictions upon their property as long as they don't discriminate against a PROTECTED class of people. (i.e. black, gay, female, aged, etc...)

As we all know from the governments attacks on our gun rights, we are not protected in the eyes of the government. At least not yet.

Dont ge me wrong, and I know you'll say the same, but I really wish we could get the ones who post GB signs to understand it doesnt help or matter.
Felons dont obey signs (well, some gunpacker dont either, obviously) so only law abiding gun owners will be the ones who do (again, not true in many cases based on the responses of some here).
So in the end its only the law abiding who they are keeping out.

 

[Ruger357SP101]

I taught my children to have self-respect and integrity by respecting other's property. If Mr. Crabapple tells you to stay off his lawn, then stay off his lawn. If someone asks you to take off your shoes before entering their house, then take off your shoes. If a store says "no shirt no service" then either put on a shirt or don't go into the store.

I'd wouldn't expect anything less from an adult.

WOW!
This is EXACTLY what Im talking about !
Common decency...HONOR and INTEGRITY...RESPECT for others.
I guess a small sub-sect of gunpackers these days have lost this somewhere.

Wouldnt it be nice if WE set the EXAMPLE to live by, instead of just getting by following the rules we cant get away with breaking ?

I guess my mother did a better job than I thought.

 

[Lakeland Man]

I agree. I've often wondered why the anti-gun crowd thinks that a sign is going to force a criminal to suddenly obey the law.

 

[Ruger357SP101]

Not much support for Ruger....

HAHAHAHA. Ah, thats good.
Sorry gent but a couple posters here dont really mean much...and a few havent exactly take the extremist view you have...so please...

If I need an item and there is a store that has that item on sale, cheaper than anywhere else. And that store has a sign on the door banning firearms. That sign has no legal weight in Washington - it is not illegal to carry past the sign (except for gov't buildings, schools, etc.)

I'll pay a dollar more rather than support a business that has a sign and fights to take my rights away at the polls.

So, I cover up my gun and go in and buy what I want and leave.

Thanks.
A previous poster asked for me to show someone who actually DOES this....well here ya go, friend.

Let me ask..... who loses in this situation?

Who 'loses' if you cheat on your wife and she never finds out..assuming you didnt get any STDs, of course?

You really see it that way?
Frightening to wonder what else you do that you can 'get away with'.

Sure, there are some that will say I am supporting their no gun policy by shopping there anyway... and that is a consideration. But in these economic times, quite frankly, we need all the private enterprise we can get, and I weigh the benefit to my economic situation.

Please. The price differences arent enough that you cant just shop somewhere else.
Not that you have to justify yourself to me.
Shop where you want.
Just dont expect me to fight for YOUR rights while you have no respect for someone elses.

Also, there are simply some venues of entertainment that are going to be 99% always firearms banned. So, do I deny my family the opportunity to engage in those entertainment venues because they have a gun buster sign up for insurance reasons? Do I let them or myself go unarmed simply because of a meaningless sign?

Insurance reasons are nothing but BS. A business who puts up a sign can be sued by someone who obeys the sign and then gets shot by someone with a gun because the store deprived them of their ability to defend themselves.
Ive seen articles with lawyers myself who said this is a very distinct possibility, not sure if its already happened or not.

Either way it goes, lawsuits can be filed.

Here's one perspective - I emailed the management of a local shopping mall and asked about their firearms policy. Their head of security emailed me back. He said, yes, of course we have the sign. He admitted it was a "feel good" measure and to satisfy the insurance company. He also said he fully realized the sign or the policy protected nobody and would do nothing to prevent a criminal act. He also stated that to him and his security personnel concealed meant concealed and if they didn't see it then there was no issue and that he fully understood the self protection issue and, in fact, wished that more people did fulfil their responsibility to provide for their own protection. He said off the clock he carried his own gun past the signs.

So hes a rule breaker too then...no respect for the property owner or the one leasing it.

 

[Ruger357SP101]

I agree. I've often wondered why the anti-gun crowd thinks that a sign is going to force a criminal to suddenly obey the law.

That one is just amazing.
I mean, how stupid can they be to think that a LAW BREAKER is going to obey a SIGN :laugh:
Especially when we have gunpackers who are supposedly law abiding who dont even obey them?

 

[Ruger357SP101]

Troll! Troll!

While you are at it why not throw in "anti-gun" and "brady bunch" and "commie" and "nazi" and "socialists" and "he started this thread to force obamacare on us"

oh lord. Dont get me started on obamacare.

I did a search for the cost and at my meager income range, even with the tax credits, it will destroy us financially. And Im not even beginning to exaggerate.

 

[Ruger357SP101]

nogods, I agree with your stance on this issue, but statements like that don't help our argument. In all reality, it was probably done to troll.

You might have asked first before assuming.
This was going on in 2 or 3 other threads. I decided last night to make a new one to get it contained here.

 

[Ruger357SP101]

Um, maybe right here:




"Lawless" "rule breakers", etc....

Your own words in a thread titled: "Ignoring Gun Buster Signage (sic)".

hmmmm...see because I see RULE breaking there, not LAW breaking because I KNOW that the law doesnt stop gunpackers from walking past the signs in many states like it does here.
Ive been trying to make sure to make the distinction.

lawless extremists who only obey the rules they cant get away with breaking

 

[doublebarr]

hmmmm...see because I see RULE breaking there, not LAW breaking because I KNOW that the law doesnt stop gunpackers from walking past the signs in many states like it does here.
Ive been trying to make sure to make the distinction.

Fun with semantics, really?

Quote:
lawless extremists who only obey the rules they cant get away with breaking

Lawless:

lawless [ˈlɔːlɪs]
adj
1. (Law) without law
2. (Law) disobedient to the law
3. (Law) contrary to or heedless of the law
4. uncontrolled; unbridled lawless rage
lawlessly adv
lawlessness n

 

[Ruger357SP101]

Fun with semantics, really?



Lawless:

Well, use that melon atop your shoulders there for a second.
I KNOW that many states DONT make it ILLEGAL to walk right past a gunbuster sign like it is here.
uh....so HOW could I then accuse someone in one of those states of being a LAW BREAKER if they havent BROKEN THE LAW?
The do, however, break the 'rules' that private property owners have posted for that particular property.

How about you sit down, shut up, read for a while to get your facts straight, then come back and talk about this once your head has cleared?