Guns & Ammo Editor Nearly Shoots Himself Proving That Serpa Holsters Suck.


opsspec1991

Active member
Guns & Ammo Editor Nearly Shoots Himself Proving That Serpa Holsters Suck.
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By Bob Owens
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Most of the shooting schools I’ve been to (and many I haven’t gotten around to yet) ban Blackhawk! Serpas holsters as being simply too dangerous to use.
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James Tarr, co-host of Handguns and Defensive Weapons and Patrick Sweeney, Handgun Editor of Guns & Ammo attempted to film a video defending the Serpa holster as a safe holster to use. Unfortunately, they accomplished just the opposite, and Sweeney came astonishingly close to shooting himself in the process.
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If you watch the video below, Sweeney’s draw at 2:27-2:31 sees his finger slip inside the trigger guard and make contact with the trigger while the gun is pointed down his right side and leg. He appears to come within a fraction of an inch of creating the exact same self-inflicted wound that made Tex Grebner famous.
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Folks the Serpa is a bad design. It doesn’t fit many people well, encourages people to make bad choices, fouls easily, breaks easily, and is essentially an accident waiting to happen, as Tim Harmsen of the Miltary Arms Channel made abundantly obvious five years ago.
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If you want a retention holster and want to stay in the same general price range, you can get a much safer design in the Safariland ALS Concealable series.
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Be smart. Be safe. Stay away from Serpas.
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Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJ2Qg4xwHgg&feature=player_embedded
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Read More: Link Removed
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My Thoughts: If you’ll notice, look to see where his trigger finger is when he’s pulling the pistol.
 

Blackhawk SERPA and Tex Grebners Mishap
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Many of you have seen Tex Grebners' video where he inadvertently shoots himself in the leg with his Kimber 1911 pistol while using a Blackhawk SERPA holster. Tex's mishap isn't unique, it's happened countless times before. The SERPA has been banned from training by many big name trainers due to safety concerns and accidental/negligent discharges attributed to the holster. This video discusses Tex Grebners accident with the Blackhawk SERPA and shows, in my opinion, how it happened and why the SERPA is dangerous.
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Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDpxVG9XFJc&feature=player_detailpage
 
I have seen negative comments about the Serpa holster before, also saw the video of the guy shooting himself in the leg. I have three of these holsters for different pistols. I actually like them. Ofcourse I understand that it is possible that one could forget or not pay attention and put their finger on the trigger while drawing. Isn't this possible with any other type holster?????
 
"I have seen negative comments about the Serpa holster before, also saw the video of the guy shooting himself in the leg. I have three of these holsters for different pistols. I actually like them. Ofcourse I understand that it is possible that one could forget or not pay attention and put their finger on the trigger while drawing. Isn't this possible with any other type holster?????"

Pretty much my thoughts, also. I'm wearing a Serpa, have been using it for 2-3 years, and haven't even come close to shooting myself. I don't attend "training schools" so their choice to ban the brand has no affect on me. In fact, maybe the bad hype will allow me to buy several more below current value for the other handguns I carry.
 
I have seen negative comments about the Serpa holster before, also saw the video of the guy shooting himself in the leg. I have three of these holsters for different pistols. I actually like them. Ofcourse I understand that it is possible that one could forget or not pay attention and put their finger on the trigger while drawing. Isn't this possible with any other type holster?????
Yes it is. There are several things to note about that video, first and foremost is the first word in the name. It's an opinion. I like my Serpas just fine too. You'll note while watching the video that many of his complaints are situational. For instance, when pointing out the dangers from Tex's situation, one of them only applies if you're using a 1911 pistol. Another danger he mentions is only a danger if your fingers are of a certain length. But what really gets me about the whole thing is that he says the Serpa holster in particular is dangerous because people curl their finger into the trigger guard. To attempt to limit that to the Serpa is somewhat absurd, because that's something no shooter should ever do with any holster. And doing that doesn't make the holster dangerous. It makes the shooter dangerous. He does try to differentiate a bit better later when he says the Serpa holster in particular encourages people to curl their fingers into the trigger guard due to it's design, and that's what makes it different from other holsters. He attempts to buttress this argument by demonstrating that a Serpa holster will not release if you pull on the gun butt prior to the release button being pressed, which is true. He also demonstrates that if you keep pulling, the gun continues to be 'jammed' into the holster no matter how much pressure is applied to the release button, which is also generally true (I tested it with one of my Serpas). Technically you can get it to release, but it takes far more force than you could ever generate with just one finger, so for the purposes of this discussion it's not releasable. So he says with the Serpa, people then fall prey to the natural tendency to curl their fingers, manage to release the gun, and the curled finger then slips into the trigger guard and produces a negligent discharge. There are two very obvious problems with that argument. 1) Falling prey to a tendency to curl your finger into the trigger guard is standard trigger discipline 101 and applies to ALL holsters, and 2) Didn't he just say releasing the gun wasn't possible? Yes, he did.
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"I don't care how hard you push, you can see my fingers turning red, it will not release the pistol."
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And right after that he says:
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"You have to push forward [on the gun], and push the button again and the pistol will come out."
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I note that comment about pushing forward and pushing the button again for a particular reason. He says Tex Grebner did this during his infamous 'accidental discharge'. But if you watch the clip with Tex, it's all one movement. There is no pull back, oops, my gun is stuck, push back in and then pull out again. His claim that Tex fell prey to the supposed holster defect he described is complete BS. Tex did something wrong alright, but it wasn't what's being alleged in this video. Tex violated trigger discipline big time. But for the sake of argument, if Tex had done what the man in this video is claiming, who is to fault when a person curls their finger into the trigger guard of a gun before they're ready to fire? The circumstances make no difference whatsoever, unless someone physically grabs your finger and forces it in. The responsibility is absolutely yours, and that's perfectly as it should be.
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The video mentions holster positions and cant (which he calls rake), and says that excess cant in a forward position puts you in bad position for a proper draw. He demonstrates how that brought Tex Grebner's arm much further forward than it should have, and how that added danger for him. Tex had a Serpa holster on his hip that had a forward cant, though it didn't appear to be much. My guess is Tex usually carried his gun further back, but had moved it forward for that event without adjusting the cant/position to compensate. But the video takes an illogical turn and blames this on the Serpa when the user is obviously responsible for the adjustments, and none of that changes for any holster on the market. Plus the attempt he makes to demonstrate the dangerous holster and body position of Tex fails completely.
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Notice that the forward cant he has in the video is much more aggressive than the cant Tex had on his holster. Notice also the position of his arm that he's demonstrating on the video, which is what he says was the dangerous forward position Tex was forced to use because of his Serpa holster. It isn't anything close to the position Tex actually used. And since when is an improper holster position or cant adjustment the fault of the holster?
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The problem here is trigger discipline, and it applies to all holsters, not just Serpas. There are all manner of different holster designs out there, any manner of which you could argue are designed to place your trigger finger in a certain position for the draw. But no holster on earth is responsible for where you actually end up placing that finger. As I noted earlier, this video says the Serpa is different because its' design actually encourages people to engage in bad trigger discipline, so I checked into the claim about Serpas being banned from big name training ranges because they were dangerous due to that difference. That gave me some better perspective on this claim. At least some facilities do indeed have an issue with the design of Serpa holsters, but it isn't because they feel the design makes them dangerous. It's that their safe use requires a shooter that absolutely adheres to the rules of proper trigger discipline, very much akin to the safe use of Glock pistols. Gunsite Academy is one of the places that has banned Serpas, but the reason for that wasn't the supposed design flaw this video is claiming. Gunsite makes no mention of anything remotely resembling the scenario depicted in this video where a shooter pulls up on a gun before pressing the release button and 'jamming' the gun in the holster. What they do mention is seeing people with not enough training or improper training engaging in a whole lot of improper trigger discipline with Serpa holsters, and NDs result. While improper trigger discipline is dangerous with any holster, the Serpa, is by virtue of its' design, more likely to produce dangerous outcomes when that improper discipline occurs. This reminds me of when Glocks first came out and started revealing just how many American shooters really didn't have good trigger discipline. So not unlike the Glock, we have a design that isn't inherently dangerous, but is very unforgiving when the rules aren't followed. So some training facilities banned them simply as a preemptive measure to prevent accidents among students that they hadn't yet had the luxury of teaching trigger discipline to. Nobody wants an accident at their facility because a new student had no training or bad training before they ever arrived at that facility. There was no way for these training sites to gauge how well students would be trained or disciplined when they showed up at the gates, and not surprisingly they started getting new students who were getting NDs because they weren't well trained. Their choice was to spend more time training everyone in trigger discipline before the real training could begin, to accept the added danger that increased NDs were just a part of the game and live with that fact, or to get rid of the equipment that was most likely to reveal the consequences that lack of training and discipline produced. Obviously they chose option 3.
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I love my Serpas, but holsters are an individual preference, just as guns are. A Serpa may work for you or it may not. It may, for you, be situational as it is for me. I almost never use a Serpa for concealed carry, reserving that almost exclusively for cold days when I'm wearing heavy clothing, or for convenience at the range (the retention feature is nice when you're continually changing guns and other equipment). They're really too bulky for concealment under lighter clothing. But the main reason I have Serpa holsters, and why I most like them, is the retention feature coupled with the modular mounting capability. I can have one holster with a modular mount that will snap into a mount under my desk, on the side of my bed, or in my truck. And when you remove it, very few people will realize what that little mount is.
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So there's nothing dangerous about a Serpa holster if you have good trigger discipline, wear and configure your holster properly, and train properly. They just require a higher level of training and discipline. They're really a niche product anyway, at least in my book. I never really saw them as a mainstream holster that would have universal appeal. I view them as a specialty item for special situations. That's how I use mine. But when it comes down to it, we're talking about guns and shooting here, folks. It's an activity that has danger inherent in it no matter what you do or product you use. Each of you must decide what best fits your needs and will be the safest while fulfilling those needs. For me, Serpa holsters fit into some of those scenarios. For you, they may not.
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2-26-16 EDIT: I forgot to mention another reason Gunsite banned Serpas is that foreign materials could get into the holster and prevent the release button from being pressed. The only way to remedy this (unless it was ice) was to cut the holster away from the gun. I would guess that other facilities that may have banned Serpas could have had that factor in mind when they made their decision too.
 
I watched the videos and never used a serpa. It seems the main issue when there are issues are when they cant is excessive.


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Many is the time I've seen folks talk about how an ND would never have happened if the person had kept their finger off the trigger.

In my opinion, Serpa holsters do not suck. Some people's trigger finger control sucks.
 
"Actor Paul Walker dies in Porsche", hence all Porsche Vehicles are death traps.
Same logic but sounds different.


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Tex Grebner doesn't blame his Serpa or the combination of a Serpa and his Kimber 1911 pattern pistol for his shooting himself. He takes full responsibility for the ND in this video posted a year after the incident.

As far as the OP goes, one, I'm not a fan of Bob Owens to start with, and two, I am not a fan of hit-pieces on holsters that seem like they're blaming the holster for an ND as much, if not more, than they're blaming the guy who actually pulled the trigger. Both the original upload by Tex and the one already linked above are the way to analyze an ND. Tex took a ton of ridicule for what he did to himself, when the only motivation for uploading the video in the first place was to warn others who might think "it could never happen to me" that nobody is immune from a temporary lapse in concentration. Tex took the weight of making both the injury and the ridicule public to help others learn not to take their skills for granted. The guy's voice, mannerisms and Gomer Pyle-ish syntax are hard for me to listen to and watch, but I respect the heck out of the guy for humiliating himself so that others might be safer shooters. Owens and the "trainers" he references who ban Serpas because they're "simply too dangerous to use" don't have as much integrity in their whole bodies as Tex has in the wound channel from his thigh to just above his knee.

I say the above not as a Serpa fan, user or owner. I've never used one. Don't think I've ever even held one. I have one plastic holster (actually it's Kydex, same diff), but mostly I like leather. If I were going to buy another plastic holster, I'd order one from Chen, and may do that one of these days, but in any case, blaming a brand or style of holster for a negligent discharge is ridiculous on its face, and just another reason why I don't take Bob Owens seriously.

Blues
 
I have had my Serpa for years and I like it as well. Don't plan to change. Kudos to Rhino for a well worded post.
 
It comes down to Practice, Practice, Practice till your muscle memory takes over and still continue practicing no matter what.
 
Guns & Ammo Editor Nearly Shoots Himself Proving That Serpa Holsters Suck.

The problem with the design of the Serpa retention system is a matter of human factors. Simply, the releasing action requires a motion similar to trigger pull . The user must apply index finger pressure in the general direction of pull near the trigger guard while drawing. So it absolutely encourages and allows for negligent discharge by design. Of course, sometimes - maybe almost all the time - a ND won't happen. BUT as a human factors engineer, this design flaw stands out to me as promoting a ND much more than say a thumb break design or pressure-only retention system - especially for firearms with single-action only (1911) or light trigger pulls (Glock, M&P, XD) - even defeating their trigger safety or grip safety mechanisms.

I'm not absolving anyone of practicing good trigger finger discipline but the Serpa requires a activation movement that actually forces a user towards error. It encourages you to put your "bugger hook on the bang switch" before you want to. My prediction is that there will be many more near misses and actual NDs with it in the future. I absolutely think it's a bad design. It is recall-worthy in my opinion.

I applaud what the designers were trying to accomplish but have concerns about how it was implemented. The OP goes so far as to recommend a different product which is unfortunate because it seems a little like a sales pitch. But the main point is spot on.


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The problem with the design of the Serpa retention system is a matter of human factors. Simply, the releasing action requires a motion similar to trigger pull. The user must apply index finger pressure in the general direction of pull near the trigger guard while drawing. So it absolutely encourages and allows for negligent discharge by design.

Completely wrong. The Serpa retention system is designed to draw the firearm with a straight index finger pushing down the paddle switch. When drawn, the straight index finger lands on the frame above the trigger guard and along the slide, just as it does when drawing from a holster with a different or no retention system.

The Serpa holster is not dangerous to all shooters, just to those that curl their index finger when drawing the firearm, i.e., to those with piss-poor training. To me, the ban on Serpa holsters at certain ranges is similar to the mandated 12-pound handgun trigger for NYPD officers. An equipment fix to a training problem.

I personally do not like the Serpa holster as dirt can block the paddle switch and the firearm becomes locked. I prefer Safari holsters if retention is needed.

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The problem with the design of the Serpa retention system is a matter of human factors.
You see, I read that sentence and I feel no need to read any further. Human factors are not the problem of any holster. They are the problem of humans. The only people who are having those problems are the people who are doing things wrong, and that isn't the fault of any holster. One design certainly may be less forgiving of a mistake than another design, but it isn't the design making the mistake, and it isn't the design that's to blame for making that mistake.
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As an owner of a couple of Serpa holsters I can say your remarks make it clear you either aren't familiar with them at all, or you practice horrible trigger discipline with your holsters. My Serpas were an outstanding training aid when I was teaching trigger discipline to my wife and kids, and I don't mean as a bad example if that's what you're thinking. I couldn't think of any better tool on earth to teach them exactly where their finger should be as they drew their gun from the holster, because the Serpa release button guarantees it will be it will be right against the trigger guard just as it should be. I'd still use them to train someone today if I needed to. I can't think of any holster that's more tailor made for the job. The thumb break, pressure release or tilt break holsters don't teach trigger finger position like the Serpa does.
 
Completely wrong. The Serpa retention system is designed to draw the firearm with a straight index finger pushing down the paddle switch. When drawn, the straight index finger lands on the frame above the trigger guard and along the slide, just as it does when drawing from a holster with a different or no retention system.

The Serpa holster is not dangerous to all shooters, just to those that curl their index finger when drawing the firearm, i.e., to those with piss-poor training. To me, the ban on Serpa holsters at certain ranges is similar to the mandated 12-pound handgun trigger for NYPD officers. An equipment fix to a training problem.



I personally do not like the Serpa holster as dirt can block the paddle switch and the firearm becomes locked. I prefer Safari holsters if retention is needed.

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I use one all the time for IDPA and USPSA events. It works like bofh explained. My finger comes to rest on the slide when the weapon is presented. I actually like mine and have no plans to change it out. Never heard about the dirt issue before but I could see how that could happen if .
 
Guns & Ammo Editor Nearly Shoots Himself Proving That Serpa Holsters Suck.

"Completely wrong. The Serpa retention system is designed to draw the firearm with a straight index finger pushing down the paddle switch. "

Yes, I think it's the "pushing" part that can lead to problems. I don t think we want any drawing mechanism that directs pressure on the draw towards the slide adjacent to to the trigger area. Again, this is just my opinion as a human factors engineer. We are trained to design systems around the human limitations and capabilities of people. People can make mistakes and we can design systems to help prevent them.
 
You see, I read that sentence and I feel no need to read any further. Human factors are not the problem of any holster. They are the problem of humans. The only people who are having those problems are the people who are doing things wrong, and that isn't the fault of any holster. One design certainly may be less forgiving of a mistake than another design, but it isn't the design making the mistake, and it isn't the design that's to blame for making that mistake.
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As an owner of a couple of Serpa holsters I can say your remarks make it clear you either aren't familiar with them at all, or you practice horrible trigger discipline with your holsters.

Yes, you make my point. The holster is less forgiving by design. People will make mistakes. History has shown it. Design can absolutely be part of the issue. Kids that eat the colorful dish washer detergent cubes because they look like candy? Design. Giving an adult dose of heparin to a child because the labels look exactly the same? Design. Floppy leather holsters that get caught in the trigger guard on reholstering? Design. Holsters that don't cover the whole trigger guard? Design. Yes, design can make a huge difference.

Look, I'm in the design business. I have no skin in this fight but to make our sport and our lives safer. If you actually read my post you'd see that as I said, most of the time, there won't be any issues. Use the holsters if you want. There are amazing innovations out there that improve the quality of the human condition. Serpa isn't evil. I just think it can be improved. The guys taking it off their ranges apparently do too.

You can insult my trigger discipline or my knowledge or whatever, but you should actually read my post...
 
I have three Serpa holsters and I friggin love each one!

keep your booger hook off the bang switch and it's all good!



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Yes, you make my point. The holster is less forgiving by design. People will make mistakes. History has shown it. Design can absolutely be part of the issue. Kids that eat the colorful dish washer detergent cubes because they look like candy? Design. Giving an adult dose of heparin to a child because the labels look exactly the same? Design. Floppy leather holsters that get caught in the trigger guard on reholstering? Design. Holsters that don't cover the whole trigger guard? Design. Yes, design can make a huge difference.

Look, I'm in the design business. I have no skin in this fight but to make our sport and our lives safer. If you actually read my post you'd see that as I said, most of the time, there won't be any issues. Use the holsters if you want. There are amazing innovations out there that improve the quality of the human condition. Serpa isn't evil. I just think it can be improved. The guys taking it off their ranges apparently do too.

You can insult my trigger discipline or my knowledge or whatever, but you should actually read my post...

No one is insulting your trigger discipline but I disagree on your bad design theory rant. In theory one could blame every holster on the market as causing someone to have a AD or ND. It all comes down to training. Don't put your finger on the trigger until you have identified your target and are prepared to shoot. A mistake many beginners and novices make. The three golden rules are 1. Practice, 2. Practice and 3. More Practice.

Oh and BTW welcome to the group..:biggrin: Were not all a-holes on here but we will have differences of opinions from time to time.
 

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