But this gun forum, and a few others, seem to be increasingly devoted to promoting them, or at least to avoid resisting being taken over by them. It's getting so much like a fundamentalist Hyde Park Speakers' Corner in here that the Liberal Gun Forum is one of the few places left for intelligent discussion what with all its well-educated, articulate liberal and non-religious gun owners.
God & the Bible, squaring belief with reality
- Thread starter PestControl02
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But this gun forum, and a few others, seem to be increasingly devoted to promoting them, or at least to avoid resisting being taken over by them. It's getting so much like a fundamentalist Hyde Park Speakers' Corner in here that the Liberal Gun Forum is one of the few places left for intelligent discussion what with all its well-educated, articulate liberal and non-religious gun owners.
The funny thing is, I have no problem with and I respect those that have faith or religious beliefs. I have no desire or need to see Christian or other religions' traditions censored or banished from the public arena. I prefer that our country continue and promote it's Judeo-Christian values and traditions. So all you who criticize or deem it necessary to call me names or question my knowledge, lay off. I'm not doing that to you, I'm just voicing an opinion that you don't agree with
tom.
tom.
Ringo
A WATCHMAN
(QUOTE)=shop tom...Right. The "End Times" were supposed to happen a thousand or more years ago. (knowledge)
Nature cares little for the myths of men. (criticize)
SAY WHAT???
Nature cares little for the myths of men. (criticize)
SAY WHAT???
You prove my point. I make a sensible comment (that you disagree with), you get all colorful and large print.
tom
Ringo
A WATCHMAN
There, I fixed it for you.
(QUOTE)=shop tom...Right. The "End Times" were supposed to happen a thousand or more years ago. (knowledge ?)
Nature cares little for the myths of men. (criticize)
Say what???
(QUOTE)=shop tom...Right. The "End Times" were supposed to happen a thousand or more years ago. (knowledge ?)
Nature cares little for the myths of men. (criticize)
Say what???
Ringo
A WATCHMAN
(shop tom=Right. The "End Times" were supposed to happen a thousand or more years ago.
Nature cares little for the myths of men.
I'm a lusty scoffer. I must admit that's a little more colorful that just a heathen, as I've
called before.)
You prove my point..The lusty scoffer proves once again how much more difficult it is to hide his ignorance than it is to acquire knowledge. The lusty scoffer can be led to evidence, but a Fool By Choice he can't be made to think.
Blessedone333
New member
YOU ARE WHAT WE CALL A SHALLOW BELIEVER
YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND HOW THE MUSLIMS ARE BEING USED BY SATAN
YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND HOW THE PAGANS IN OTHER NATIONS ARE BEING DESTROYED FOR THE SAKE OF GOD'S MERCY ON THOSE WHO LOVE HIM.
ALL MUSLIMS SERVE SATAN. They bow 5 times a day to a pagan moon god - you claim to have 'read the bible cover to cover' I have found that statement to be bull **** 99% of the time.
if what you say is real - then tell me who are the nephilim in the modern world - because they are here and if you were a real BORN AGAIN Christ follower, you would know this answer!!!
if you had really read your bible you would have read this:
1st Samuel chapter 17
46 This day will the Lord deliver thee into mine hand; and I will smite thee, and take thine head from thee; and I will give the carcases of the host of the Philistines this day unto the fowls of the air, and to the wild beasts of the earth; that all the earth may know that there is a God in Israel.
47 And all this assembly shall know that the Lord saveth not with sword and spear: for the battle is the Lord's, and he will give you into our hands.
48 And it came to pass, when the Philistine arose, and came, and drew nigh to meet David, that David hastened, and ran toward the army to meet the Philistine.
49 And David put his hand in his bag, and took thence a stone, and slang it, and smote the Philistine in his forehead, that the stone sunk into his forehead; and he fell upon his face to the earth.
GOD HELPS DESTROY THE WICKED BY THE HANDS OF THE FAITHFUL
stop ranting about war - it's always going to be here until Yeshua returns.
had you been a real born again Christian ... you would know this
YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND HOW THE MUSLIMS ARE BEING USED BY SATAN
YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND HOW THE PAGANS IN OTHER NATIONS ARE BEING DESTROYED FOR THE SAKE OF GOD'S MERCY ON THOSE WHO LOVE HIM.
ALL MUSLIMS SERVE SATAN. They bow 5 times a day to a pagan moon god - you claim to have 'read the bible cover to cover' I have found that statement to be bull **** 99% of the time.
if what you say is real - then tell me who are the nephilim in the modern world - because they are here and if you were a real BORN AGAIN Christ follower, you would know this answer!!!
if you had really read your bible you would have read this:
1st Samuel chapter 17
46 This day will the Lord deliver thee into mine hand; and I will smite thee, and take thine head from thee; and I will give the carcases of the host of the Philistines this day unto the fowls of the air, and to the wild beasts of the earth; that all the earth may know that there is a God in Israel.
47 And all this assembly shall know that the Lord saveth not with sword and spear: for the battle is the Lord's, and he will give you into our hands.
48 And it came to pass, when the Philistine arose, and came, and drew nigh to meet David, that David hastened, and ran toward the army to meet the Philistine.
49 And David put his hand in his bag, and took thence a stone, and slang it, and smote the Philistine in his forehead, that the stone sunk into his forehead; and he fell upon his face to the earth.
GOD HELPS DESTROY THE WICKED BY THE HANDS OF THE FAITHFUL
stop ranting about war - it's always going to be here until Yeshua returns.
had you been a real born again Christian ... you would know this
tcox4freedom
New member
Big 1st post there Blessedone. Welcome to the forum. I'm sure Ringo will appreciate the support. Most of us just don't pay much attention to the trolls anymore.
I for one just don't have the patience that Ringo seems to have. I love the unbelieving trolls that come here to hassle us. But, I'm not sure it does any good to keep throwing "pearls before swine".
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I for one just don't have the patience that Ringo seems to have. I love the unbelieving trolls that come here to hassle us. But, I'm not sure it does any good to keep throwing "pearls before swine".
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maine04619
New member
You may want to READ the available parts of the dead sea scrolls. While PARTS are similar they are NOT the same by a long shot. Thus once again proving that the "WORD" has been under many rewrites by man over the years and therefore can not be the actual word of god. I fit was the "true " word of god it would be "perfect" thus no editing necessary..
On the other hand copies of the koran going back that far are around and are EXACT copies of the koran you see today no edits no changes.
The Judaica has been found to have copies that go back even further and again are EXACT copies.
Oops facts again sorry I know you hate those...
Ringo
A WATCHMAN
While the ancient scroll fragments do not "prove" the Bible is true, they prove that the Bible Christians use today, including 66 books from Genesis to Revelation, is the Bible God intended Christians to have, even thousands of years after He first inspired its writing. "What I try to get people to understand is, there is a prior question to the 'Is the Bible true?' question, and that is, 'Is what we have the Bible?'" The scrolls give us a 2,000-year-old snapshot of how the text of the Bible was in Jesus' day. If there had been cameras, somebody could have stood next to Jesus, taken a picture of the Torah Scroll that He was holding up in the synagogue, put that picture in a safe somewhere for 2,000 years and nobody got a chance to see it, nobody could change it, and all of a sudden, you open up the safe 2,000 years later and say, 'Look, here's a picture of Jesus holding the scroll and look at the text.' "Well, that's what we have, except we don't have a picture of Jesus; but we got the text that the Jews were using at the time. So what it does is it gives us confidence in the words of God that were transmitted down to us. Now it doesn't answer the question, 'Is the Bible true?' because that is a matter of faith, but it does help you understand that what we have in the Old Testament was copied very faithfully.
Previous to the DSS, the earliest known manuscript of the Old Testament was the Masoretic Text (A.D. 900) and two others (dating about A.D. 1000) from which, for example, the King James version of the Old Testament derived its translation. Perhaps most would have considered the Masoretic text as a very late text and therefore questioned the reliability of the Old Testament wholesale. The Dead Sea Scrolls eclipse these texts by 1,000 years and provide little reason to question their reliability, and further, present only confidence for the text. The beauty of the Dead Sea Scrolls lies in the close match they have with the Masoretic text—demonstrable evidence of reliability and preservation of the authentic text through the centuries. So the discovery of the DSS provides evidence for the following:
1) Confirmation of the Hebrew Text
2) Support for the Masoretic Text
3) Support for the Greek translation of the Hebrew Text (the Septuagint).
Since the New Testament often quotes from the Greek Old Testament, the DSS furnish the reader with further confidence for the Masoretic texts in this area where it can be tested.
Oops facts again sorry I know you hate those...
The Judaica has been found to have copies that go back even further and again are EXACT copies.
Yea, so?
Judaica includes any literature, religious icons or other items relating to the Jewish faith. Judaism is one of the oldest world faiths. Its roots go back thousands of years and coincide with other world empires, such as those of the Egyptians, Assyrians and Babylonians. The basic tenets of Judaism include a belief in one God, who created the universe, heavens and earth, and who is active in the history of man. God handed down laws to a deliverer of the Jewish people, Moses, including codes on diet, clothing, worship and civil conduct. These laws are the codes of everyday living for an observant Jew. Since Judaism is such an old religion, there are volumes written about its stories, traditions, holidays and observances. All of these writings can be called Judaica. Essentially, anything relating to the Jewish faith or way of life could fall into the "Judaica" category, from the old prayer books and menorahs belonging to grandparents, to posters for Passover meals served at kosher restaurants.
Previous to the DSS, the earliest known manuscript of the Old Testament was the Masoretic Text (A.D. 900) and two others (dating about A.D. 1000) from which, for example, the King James version of the Old Testament derived its translation. Perhaps most would have considered the Masoretic text as a very late text and therefore questioned the reliability of the Old Testament wholesale. The Dead Sea Scrolls eclipse these texts by 1,000 years and provide little reason to question their reliability, and further, present only confidence for the text. The beauty of the Dead Sea Scrolls lies in the close match they have with the Masoretic text—demonstrable evidence of reliability and preservation of the authentic text through the centuries. So the discovery of the DSS provides evidence for the following:
1) Confirmation of the Hebrew Text
2) Support for the Masoretic Text
3) Support for the Greek translation of the Hebrew Text (the Septuagint).
Since the New Testament often quotes from the Greek Old Testament, the DSS furnish the reader with further confidence for the Masoretic texts in this area where it can be tested.
Oops facts again sorry I know you hate those...
The Judaica has been found to have copies that go back even further and again are EXACT copies.
Yea, so?
Judaica includes any literature, religious icons or other items relating to the Jewish faith. Judaism is one of the oldest world faiths. Its roots go back thousands of years and coincide with other world empires, such as those of the Egyptians, Assyrians and Babylonians. The basic tenets of Judaism include a belief in one God, who created the universe, heavens and earth, and who is active in the history of man. God handed down laws to a deliverer of the Jewish people, Moses, including codes on diet, clothing, worship and civil conduct. These laws are the codes of everyday living for an observant Jew. Since Judaism is such an old religion, there are volumes written about its stories, traditions, holidays and observances. All of these writings can be called Judaica. Essentially, anything relating to the Jewish faith or way of life could fall into the "Judaica" category, from the old prayer books and menorahs belonging to grandparents, to posters for Passover meals served at kosher restaurants.
Ringo
A WATCHMAN
The Quran was written after 622 AD. The British Museum, dates this manuscript at 790 AD.
The DSS manuscripts have been dated to 408 BC.
Oops facts again sorry I know you hate those...
The fact, dear Dingo, is that you can't prove that god exists any more than I can prove that there is an invisible elf living in my back yard. Just believing in one or the other doesn't make it so. So many things in the bible are taken from pre-existing writings and beliefs from different cultures and beliefs. That fact that so many believe in and worship the idea of god and/or jesus, mohammed, buddha, whoever, doesn't bother me as much as it seems to bother you that I don't do so.
tom
tom
maine04619
New member
Ok a few hundred years or so. You missed the POINT. The Koran and the Judaica are THE SAME NOW AS THOSE OLD COPIES! On the other hand the Bible has been all but rewritten. The DSS has some parts that are the same or close but the majority of the scrolls that have been made readable are VERY VERY different.
So I correct my mistake and give you the Oldest known Koran is a few hundred years then the oldest version of the bible. However it is just that a VERSION of the bible IE NOT the same IE EDITED repeatedly on a massive scale to the point it is a different book just as many of the older bibles are. However I say again for clarity the Koran and the Judaica are UNEDITED by man from these oldest known copies ( to avoid a further issue there are in fact a few MINOR changes in the Koran and the Judaica ).
Nit pick at a few hundred years all you want. Feel free to explain how while the Koran and the Judaica have remained true the bible has been edited so heavily that most reading both may infer a link no reader would say they are the same.
Those pesky correct facts...
If one says The Judaica every other Jew knows what it is. Judaica said alone or without "the" can mean many things. Hebrew has many many words that mean different things depending on the context they are used in. This is the primary reason it is so hard to translate many texts from Hebrew.
tcox4freedom
New member
Somebody's complete & total ignorance & ineptitude of the subject of the Bible & Christianity is brightly shining through. (Honestly, it's almost laughable.)
Some of the previous posts really do give credence to the the old proverb- "Better to be thought a fool; than open your mouth & remove all doubt."
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Some of the previous posts really do give credence to the the old proverb- "Better to be thought a fool; than open your mouth & remove all doubt."
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Ringo
A WATCHMAN
Of course you found it to no avail, God made that very clear.
1 Corinthians 2:14
"For the natural man (unbeliever) is not able to take in the things of the Spirit of God: for they seem foolish to him, and he is not able to have knowledge of them, because such knowledge comes only through the Spirit".
Sorry to disappoint you tom, but if you choose to deny the existence of God and instead choose to believe that "Nothing Plus Nothing Plus Time Equals = Something", it doesn't bother me in the least. But if you insist on just flapping your gums with foolish rhetoric here on an open forum to prove to everyone how ignorant and mentally challenged you are, then so be it, you're on. It's said that all lies begin with self-deceit, and to those self-deceived, no amount of evidence is sufficient. Are you self-deceived tom, or is it just that when it comes to considering scripture unbelievable, it's a given considering your inability to comprehend? Let's continue and find out.
The Bible declares that the prophecies it provides concerning Israel supply the irrefutable evidence for God's existence—and for the fact that He has a purpose for mankind. History is not merely happenstance. It is going somewhere. There is a plan. Biblical prophecies declare it irrefutably. Prophecy, which reveals God's plan in advance, is the missing element in all sacred scriptures of the world's religions, because false gods cannot provide it. Prophecy is not to be found in the Koran, the Hindu Vedas, the Bhagavad-Gita, the Book of Mormon, the sayings of Buddha, the writings of Mary Baker Eddy. In contrast, prophecy comprises about 30 percent of the Bible. Significantly, the God of the Bible identifies Himself as the One who accurately foretells the future and makes certain that it happens as He said it would. In fact, God points to prophecy as the irrefutable evidence of His existence and the authenticity of His Word: "For I am God, and there is none else. ...Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, my counsel shall stand..." (Isa:46:9-10 There are two major topics of prophecy, both of which must be studied if one is to have any understanding of the Bible: 1) Israel; and 2) the Messiah, who would come to Israel and through her to the world. These two major topics involve specific fulfillment's of prophecy that cannot be denied and which prove God's existence.
In proof of Jesus Christ we have the prophecies, which are solid and palpable proofs. And these prophecies, being accomplished and proved true by the event, mark the certainty of these truths and, therefore, the divinity of Christ. In reference to the prophecies mentioned let me explain that the Old Testament has over 300 prophetic references to the Messiah and every one of them was fulfilled by Jesus Christ, conclusively establishing Him as the Messiah, the Son of God. By using the science of probability we find that for just eight of these prophecies to be fulfilled in one man it would take a probability of one in 100 trillion! Let's put that into perspective, shall we?
If we took 100 trillion silver dollars marked only one of them and laid them on the ground they would cover the entire state of Texas two feet deep. Now, mix the whole pile up and instruct someone to find the marked one - Blindfolded. What chance would he have of picking the marked one? The same chance the Bible writers would have in having 8 of these prophecies fulfilled in the life of one man if they weren't divinely inspired by God. What about having 48 of these Bible prophecies fulfilled in one man's life? The chance of any one man fulfilling all of 48 prophecies is one in ten to the 157th power. The electron is about as small an object as we can get. If we had a cubic inch of these electrons and tried to count them, it would take us (at 250 per minute) 19,000 times 19,000 times 19,000 years to count them. Now mark one of them, mix them up and have our blindfolded guy find the right one. What are his chances? The same chance as one man fulfilling 48 of the prophecies about Christ without Him actually being the Son of God! Now here's the clincher, Jesus Christ fulfilled not 8, not 48 but all 300 prophecies in His life! Am I stupid for trusting and relying in the truth of the Bible, or are you stupid because you don't? I've got a lot more proof if you choose to continue?
Greggatshack
Member
Link Removed
You might appreciate this Tom
You might appreciate this Tom
maine04619
New member
Ahhh once again when presented with FACTS that can not be disputed as they are FACTUAL those who believe resort back to name calling and there faith. Thus ignoring the very title of the thread.
Faith is fine but if you unable to admit that the bible is in fact a massively and repeatedly edited text the point where in a couple thousand years you have a completely different book. All the while claiming it is the "word of god". When the other to major religions during the SAME time frame are different in a few WORDS only.
If you truly believe in the bible then read the DSS yourself. See all the books NOT in the bible see how incredible different they are. Then ask yourself this if god is on fact perfect and all powerful why would he give man his first draft? Let us take another step and say that the first books where in fact the actual word of god. Is it now plausible that the devil himself has edited it to his benefit?
Treo
Bullet Proof
If the devil could edit the words in the Bible to his benefit that makes him more powerful than God.
Greggatshack
Member
These are not arguments they are statements designed to put down another person. If you insist on maintaining that you are a representative of Jesus Christ then please conduct yourself as Christ would. I hope that Luke has given you a warning for flaming.
Cheers
Gregg
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