FL statute term "loaded" isn't defined

[jaydub]

My mind has been blown. In researching FL laws on http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/florida.pdf, I ran across this way down in the document:

What Does FL Consider A Loaded Firearm?
Florida law does not define Loaded. Its firearm laws are full of the word Loaded or Unloaded but does not give a definition.

So there is no clear definition on the books whether "loaded" means a gun with a magazine or a fun with a chambered round. That's making me want to research convictions and tickets that were contested in court to see which way the law rules. I'd bet it goes both ways, depending on the judge and I'm surprised this hasn't gone to the state Supreme Court to have the statutes re-written to be clear on this.

Personally, I wouldn't consider an empty chamber with a full magazine inserted to be loaded because of how much effort it takes to fire - not much more effort than pushing in a mag and taking all of those same steps. After firing 150 rds with my handgun, I'm confident I could mag and fire 1 second longer than it would take me to chamber and fire.

 

[Black Dragon]

The law says "loaded firearm" not just loaded. So if says "firearm" it means the firearm as a whole. If the magazine has rounds and is loaded into the firearm then the firearm is loaded.
If it meant loaded chamber it would say "loaded chamber"

Also the magazine can be considered part of the firearm but of that I'm not sure.

 

[wolf_fire]

Be thankful you don't live in some of the Commie states. A loaded magazine in some states constitutes a loaded weapon.

 

[wolf_fire]

The law says "loaded firearm" not just loaded. So if says "firearm" it means the firearm as a whole. If the magazine has rounds and is loaded into the firearm then the firearm is loaded.
If it meant loaded chamber it would say "loaded chamber"

Also the magazine can be considered part of the firearm but of that I'm not sure.

I'm going to play devil's advocate a bit, just to get a good understanding. So, if I had a revolver and only had one round in it, but not at the ready to be the next round to go off, then the revolver is considered loaded?

And using your semi-auto example, if I put a round in the chamber but had no magazine, loaded or loaded chamber? I know how I'd interpret it, but jaydub has a point.

I have one more question, a revolver with the cylinder out and one round in the cylinder, loaded or not loaded?

This is why the term, if used in the law, should be defined.

 

[Black Dragon]

I'm going to play devil's advocate a bit, just to get a good understanding. So, if I had a revolver and only had one round in it, but not at the ready to be the next round to go off, then the revolver is considered loaded?

And using your semi-auto example, if I put a round in the chamber but had no magazine, loaded or loaded chamber? I know how I'd interpret it, but jaydub has a point.

I have one more question, a revolver with the cylinder out and one round in the cylinder, loaded or not loaded?

This is why the term, if used in the law, should be defined.

If the cylinder is still connected to the frame of a revolver, yes it is still part of the firearm. Just as if a loaded magazine had rounds but no rounds in the chamber. It's part of the whole.

Again I'm not sure if the mag alone is considered part of a firearm because it's not stipulated in the law.
I agree these things should be better defined but when you have politicians creating laws about things they really don't know about you have these inconsistencies.

 

[wolf_fire]

If the cylinder is still connected to the frame of a revolver, yes it is still part of the firearm. Just as if a loaded magazine had rounds but no rounds in the chamber. It's part of the whole.

Again I'm not sure if the mag alone is considered part of a firearm because it's not stipulated in the law.
I agree these things should be better defined but when you have politicians creating laws about things they really don't know about you have these inconsistencies.

I would personally agree with you as someone who understand firearms and uses logic and reason... but these laws, as you have mentioned are created by those that don't. Therefore, our logical definitions aren't necessarily the definition that FL law makers or FL LE will go by.

 

[ADulay]

I would personally agree with you as someone who understand firearms and uses logic and reason... but these laws, as you have mentioned are created by those that don't.

You have just hit the proverbial nail on the head.

The goofs in Tallahassee continue to "make laws" on things they really don't understand or care to understand.

AD

 

[the dark]

I would personally agree with you as someone who understand firearms and uses logic and reason... but these laws, as you have mentioned are created by those that don't.

You have just hit the proverbial nail on the head.

The goofs in Tallahassee continue to "make laws" on things they really don't understand or care to understand.

AD

At least the laws they make have yet to negate our 2A rights. We have that going for us.

 

[wolf_fire]

At least the laws they make have yet to negate our 2A rights. We have that going for us.

Any infringement IS a negation of the 2A as it was written. The right states: A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

Therefore, how I carry, what I carry, and if I carry are absolutely no concern of any government, Federal, state, or local.

 

[NavyLCDR]

I think it is 100% idiotic not to define loaded in the statute. The definition of loaded does not even appear in the Florida Administrative Code either, not even in the wildlife and hunting regulations!

So... if I were on a jury, absent a definition in law, this is how I would decide (and how I would defend myself in court if I had to):

1. What does the manufacturer's user's manual for the gun say is loaded, either by defining it, or in the procedures section for loading the gun? To me, failure to complete the loading procedure specified in the manual means the gun is not loaded, and for a semi-automatic pistol the last step should be racking the slide.

2. To me, loaded means that the gun can be fired through the actions required to normally discharge the gun regardless of how many times the actions must be performed to discharge the gun. For a double action firearm, that means pulling the trigger. If you can simply pull the trigger on a double action gun all day long (with the safety off), and the gun will not discharge, and the firearm is operating normally without a malfunction, then the gun is not loaded. If the gun is a single action firearm, if you can repeatedly cock the hammer and pull the trigger all day long without the gun discharging, than the gun is not loaded. So, to me, any round in any cylinder installed in a revolver would cause the revolver to be loaded. A semi-auto without a round in the chamber would not be loaded.

But, that is just the way I would rule if I was on a jury. Would I take the chance that is what any jury would rule? Absolutely not. Personally, if I was going to comply with a law that said the gun had to be unloaded I would not have any round of ammunition in the gun in any form; but if the law did not specifically define loaded, I would not be concerned about having loaded magazines that were not inserted in the gun.

 

[festus]

I talked with a LEO buddy of mine.
His understanding is that if the weapon has a loaded magazine, the revolver has a loaded cylinder, or the shotgun a loaded feed tube the weapon can be considered loaded as it is readily available to fire with only minor action required to do so.
In order to be determined as unloaded the ammunition must be separated physically from the weapon ie mag removed, cylinder empty, feed tube empty....no round in the barrel or cleared and safed

 

[Nightmare45]

Legal Question, just asking, is any law not following the constitution enforceable? Believe 2nd amendment does not mention cylinders, magazines, or weapon design.

 

[Seeya]

Marbury v. Madison, 5 US 137
The Constitution for these united States is the Supreme Law of the Land.
Any law that is repugnant to the
Constitution is null and void of law and effect from its inception. 1.
Do you have a right? 2. If you have a
right and it is violated, do the laws of the country afford a remedy? 3.
If you have a remedy at law is it a
mandamus issuing from this court? The opinion of the court on all three
questions was yes, yes, yes.

Supreme Law School : E-mail : Box 036 : Msg 03678

click on the link there is more to support this

 

[Burtboomer]

FL statute term "loaded" isn't defined

I think it's stated just how they want it. If there's not defined then they're not held to it

 

[festus]

i think it's stated just how they want it. If there's not defined then they're not held to it

bingo!

 

[S&W645]

I talked with a LEO buddy of mine.
His understanding is that if the weapon has a loaded magazine, the revolver has a loaded cylinder, or the shotgun a loaded feed tube the weapon can be considered loaded as it is readily available to fire with only minor action required to do so.
In order to be determined as unloaded the ammunition must be separated physically from the weapon ie mag removed, cylinder empty, feed tube empty....no round in the barrel or cleared and safed

That would be how I would define it. Racking the slide is minor action. Now to really throw a curve ball, is a S&W 645 with empty cases in the mag loaded? Answer would be no as when loaded into the chamber, the rounds could not fire. Older S&W semi-autos would chamber empty rounds if racked. Good training aid for failure to fire skills.

 

[TeddieB]

Thank goodness we don't live in Washington, D.C. where they are prosecuting people for having empty shell casings! I have yet to figure the logic of that...