Firearm confiscation during a State of Emergency

[S&W645]

Stated perfectly. As a former IT professional I'll tell you how easy it is. When the FBI types a name, address and SS number (if provided) They run a check on a computer against a national database. They notify the store whether or not to approve the purchase. Putting all-that aside.. because that part actually doesn't matter. When the program performing the search executes at the server-end, that program can trigger a simple EDI transaction (electronic data interchange) to send the name and address to the NSA. It's not a big deal. It's ONE line of program code and takes about 5 minutes to change any program to pass the data. Since both are under the purvey of the justice department there is no special permission needed to store that transaction. If the feds contracted me to do it I could do the entire thing in a single day. SO the NSA builds this massive data center and then people argue that they can't get data on who bought a gun. Can anyone say naïve? Gullible? Be vey concerned. They know.

You are behind the times BC1. The Feds don't have to type in anything. Anyone at a gun shop who is cleared can run the check themselves here in Florida. Florida has a number of ways of doing them. One is call the Florida Dept of Law Enforcement and talk to a human. Human then enters it in computer to generate number and status. Second is enter it directly in the FSE system which will generate the number and status. Third is get cleared thru the FFL and enter the info directly into the FBI system to get a number and status. No Fed needs even be involved and all agencies involved are supposed to destroy the data within 24 hours if approved. 30 days if denied and then approved. Never if denied outright. During those periods, how many backups are made and stored is the question.

 

[mappow]

Soooo some of us ARE REALLY A-Listers. B-Listers yadda yadda yadda. Kool.

 

[mappow]

You are behind the times BC1. The Feds don't have to type in anything. Anyone at a gun shop who is cleared can run the check themselves here in Florida. Florida has a number of ways of doing them. One is call the Florida Dept of Law Enforcement and talk to a human. Human then enters it in computer to generate number and status. Second is enter it directly in the FSE system which will generate the number and status. Third is get cleared thru the FFL and enter the info directly into the FBI system to get a number and status. No Fed needs even be involved and all agencies involved are supposed to destroy the data within 24 hours if approved. 30 days if denied and then approved. Never if denied outright. During those periods, how many backups are made and stored is the question.

Key words "are supposed to destroy the data within 24 hours if approved" Yeah-Most of us know how that works.
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It still stymies me how we're supposed to have 5th Amendment protections yet we're constantly abused by a Gov't that supposed to "Protect and serve". Yet The technology we have advanced through is not utilized fully against enemies overseas but against the citizens of the US. Someone mentioned Orwellian earlier.

 

[BC1]

You are behind the times BC1. The Feds don't have to type in anything. Anyone at a gun shop who is cleared can run the check themselves here in Florida. Florida has a number of ways of doing them. One is call the Florida Dept of Law Enforcement and talk to a human. Human then enters it in computer to generate number and status. Second is enter it directly in the FSE system which will generate the number and status. Third is get cleared thru the FFL and enter the info directly into the FBI system to get a number and status. No Fed needs even be involved and all agencies involved are supposed to destroy the data within 24 hours if approved. 30 days if denied and then approved. Never if denied outright. During those periods, how many backups are made and stored is the question.

The approval is done through a central computer application regardless of who runs the check. It's the same software actually doing it. Procedurally things can change but the base technology is able to report to any fed agency. The state of Fl is not developing it's own internal investigative software to do a fed background check. It still runs through the fed systems.

 

[XD40scinNC]

There is a way that a NICS check is done even with your CHP. It just is run thru your state and they are required to keep it up to date. At the minimum they would have to run your permit number thru the system or else your state/gun store would be in violation of the law. And if you bought two handguns at the same time/within 7 days at the same shop, they must send in the multiple purchase form to BATFE and your local CLEO by Federal Law.https://www.atf.gov/files/forms/download/atf-f-3310-4.pdf The guns cannot leave the store legally without having a check done.

No, they never call anyone, or enter anything online, I have been face to face through the entire transaction several times where I would witness any checks being made by the FFL seller.

I don't know how it works in your state, but I do know how it works in my state.

It goes much like this:
Me: I'll take this gun
FFL: OK, I need to see your ID (drivers license) and CHP
Me: Hands over ID and CHP
FFL: Gives me the 4473, clipboard, pen, fill this out please
Me: Fills out 4473
FFL: Reviews completeness of 4473, fills out his part and writes my CHP# and probably DL# on the form, then asks me to sign the form.
Me: Signs form with seller watching
FFL: "how are your paying for this?"
Me: Hand him payment
FFL: Rings up sale while asking "Do you need any ammo, holster, etc?"
Me: No thanks
FFL: OK, here is your gun, receipt, thanks for your business.
Me: Walks out with gun.

It is the opinion of the United States Department of Justice that a valid North Carolina
Concealed Handgun Permit may be used as an alternative to a NICS check for the purchase of
firearms.

Link Removed

 

[BC1]

To clear-up any misunderstanding of how this works... from the FBI
.
Mandated by the Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act of 1993 and launched by the FBI on November 30, 1998, NICS is used by Federal Firearms Licensees (FFLs) to instantly determine whether a prospective buyer is eligible to buy firearms or explosives. Before ringing up the sale, cashiers call in a check to the FBI or to other designated agencies to ensure that each customer does not have a criminal record or isn’t otherwise ineligible to make a purchase.
.
NICS is located at the FBI’s Criminal Justice Information Services Division in Clarksburg, West Virginia. It provides full service to FFLs in 30 states, five U.S. territories, and the District of Columbia. Upon completion of the required Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) Form 4473, FFLs contact the NICS Section via a toll-free telephone number or electronically on the Internet through the NICS E-Check System to request a background check with the descriptive information provided on the ATF Form 4473. NICS is customarily available 17 hours a day, seven days a week, including holidays (except for Christmas). Please be advised that calls may be monitored and recorded for any authorized purpose.
.
The procedure requires a FFL contacts the NICS by telephone or Internet. When the background check is initiated three databases are accessed: the National Crime Information Center (NCIC), the Interstate Identification Index (III), and the NICS Index. According to the FBI, checks are usually determined within minutes of initiation. If there is no match in any of the checked databases, the dealer is cleared to proceed with the transfer. Otherwise, the FBI's NCIS Section must contact the appropriate judicial and/or law enforcement agencies for more information. Per the Brady Act, the FBI has three business days to make its decision to approve or deny the transfer. If the FFL has not received the decision within that time it may legally proceed anyway.
.
States may implement their own NICS programs. Such states become the point of contact (POC) between their FFL dealers and the NICS. A few partial-POC states run FFL handgun checks, while the FBI runs long gun checks. FFLs in other, non-POC states access the NICS directly through the FBI.
.
Authorized local, state, tribal, and federal agencies can update NCIS Index data via the NCIC front end, or by electronic batch files. In addition, the NICS Section receives calls, often in emergency situations, from mental health care providers, police departments, and family members requesting placement of individuals into the NICS Index. Documentation justifying entry into the NICS Index must be available to originating agencies.

 

[XD40scinNC]

Just not in NC.
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[BC1]

Just not in NC.
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I don't understand how this works. A person in NC who holds a pistol permit is not required by state law to get a NICS check. What if that person has committed a crime outside of NC and the state has no knowledge of it? In NY the procedure was similar... the permit would suffice for a few months on any number of firearm purchases after which the dealer had to run a NICS check.

 

[XD40scinNC]

I don't understand how this works. A person in NC who holds a pistol permit is not required by state law to get a NICS check. What if that person has committed a crime outside of NC and the state has no knowledge of it? In NY the procedure was similar... the permit would suffice for a few months on any number of firearm purchases after which the dealer had to run a NICS check.

Correct, a CHP or PPP (Pistol Purchase Permit) also obtained from the sheriff negates the NICS check. Either is valid for 5 years from date of issue.

The law also requires the sheriff to actively revoke and confiscate either a CHP or unused PPP's for cause that would prohibit gun ownership under federal standards.

There was an attempt to remove the PPP power from the sheriff, and use NICS checks for purchase, but the sheriff's association pitched a fit, as they see it as a power they have, and some county sheriff's have abused that power. Instead they passed a law that limits a sheriff's ability to abuse this power saying that they must provide valid (legal) reason for a denial, and that they cannot limit the number of permits an individual can get.

At the same time they also made CHP and PPP records private so the media can't publish these lists.

 

[S&W645]

Correct, a CHP or PPP (Pistol Purchase Permit) also obtained from the sheriff negates the NICS check. Either is valid for 5 years from date of issue.

The law also requires the sheriff to actively revoke and confiscate either a CHP or unused PPP's for cause that would prohibit gun ownership under federal standards.

There was an attempt to remove the PPP power from the sheriff, and use NICS checks for purchase, but the sheriff's association pitched a fit, as they see it as a power they have, and some county sheriff's have abused that power. Instead they passed a law that limits a sheriff's ability to abuse this power saying that they must provide valid (legal) reason for a denial, and that they cannot limit the number of permits an individual can get.

At the same time they also made CHP and PPP records private so the media can't publish these lists.

Doing it that way leads to delays that allow persons who should not be purchasing/owning/in possession of firearms to have them. How does a gun shop know if the permit is revoked if they do not run a check?

So if you want to buy a handgun, you have to get a PPP. That is when a NICS check is done and according to that paper, you get only one handgun per PPP.

NOTE: North Carolina law allows for the purchase of a single handgun with a single valid purchase permit....... If a pistol purchase permit is used, the dealer will retain the original permit for the transaction.

So every time you want a new gun, you have to go to the LEO to get their permission. No thanks. That is a restriction I can live without. I can get multiple handguns at a time with the NICS check. Also you are required in NC to do it on FTF private sales.

Under North Carolina law, it is unlawful for any person, firm, or corporation to sell, give away, transfer, purchase, or receive, at any place in the State, any pistol, unless the purchaser or receiver has first obtained a license or permit to receive such a pistol by the sheriff of the county where the purchaser or receiver resides, or the purchaser or receiver possesses a valid North Carolina issued concealed carry permit. This requirement to obtain a permit prior to the transfer of a pistol applies not only to a commercial transaction, typically at a sporting goods store, but also between private individuals or companies throughout North Carolina.

 

[S&W645]

Key words "are supposed to destroy the data within 24 hours if approved" Yeah-Most of us know how that works.
-
It still stymies me how we're supposed to have 5th Amendment protections yet we're constantly abused by a Gov't that supposed to "Protect and serve". Yet The technology we have advanced through is not utilized fully against enemies overseas but against the citizens of the US. Someone mentioned Orwellian earlier.

"Supposed to" is something the gov't has always abused. "Must" is abused less often but even that is not 100%.

 

[Axeanda45]

Buy from private individuals and bypass all the infringements.......

 

[XD40scinNC]

Doing it that way leads to delays that allow persons who should not be purchasing/owning/in possession of firearms to have them. How does a gun shop know if the permit is revoked if they do not run a check?

They don't. The law puts the responsibility on the sheriff to revoke and confiscate any unused PPP's and the CHP, mandated by law.

So if you want to buy a handgun, you have to get a PPP. That is when a NICS check is done and according to that paper, you get only one handgun per PPP. So every time you want a new gun, you have to go to the LEO to get their permission. No thanks. That is a restriction I can live without. I can get multiple handguns at a time with the NICS check. Also you are required in NC to do it on FTF private sales.

But there is no limit to the number of permits you can get on one application. Some sheriff's used to limit this, to as few as 2 or 5 per year, or per application, but the law was changed to take that power away from the sheriff. They are $5 each, no limit. I originally application I requested and got 4, used 3, still have one, all from a single NICS check. The FFL seller just files the PPP with the 4473, so there is no indication that one was ever used to purchase a gun, or unlike NICS checks, even the type of gun.

I also can buy multiple handguns on a single purchase, and without any NICS checks, by merely showing my CHP, or if I had multiple PPP's in hand.

FTF sale (assuming everyone follows the rules), seller confirms I have a PPP or CHP, Bill of Sale optional but good practice, we exchange the gun and money.

But I agree, especially for the first time buyer, it is a PIA. And the typical person that is 'thinking' about getting a gun for defense doesn't understand the system. I have explained it to a number of people, and I overhear it at the various gun stores on a routine basis. The state legislature tried to do away with the PPP system last year. The way the laws are written in NC, the county sheriff wields a lot of power, and the sheriff's association put on a full court press to get that stricken from the bill (HB937) that was very pro-gun and went into effect last year. Fortunately the sheriff here is one of the better ones. His predecessor is Link Removedin the federal pen for corruption in office.

They (both the sheriff and NICS) can assume I have purchased guns, but they would have to find the 4473 stored at the LGS where I purchased it to prove it, and good luck with the FTF purchases I've made.