FBI Says 9mm Is The Best Pistol Round


Ringo

Ringo

A WATCHMAN
Found this on another forum. I'm sure not everyone will agree.

A new study from the FBI’s Training Division shows that overall, the 9mm Luger pistol round is the best option for law enforcement handguns, recommending departments shouldn’t switch their side arms to larger rounds considered by many to be more lethal.

Based in a combination of factors, including so-called “stopping power,” weight and availability, (FBI 9MM Justification, FBI Training Division - Soldier Systems Daily) the FBI study shows that the 9mm round penetrates far enough, allows for shooters to carry more rounds, and is more widely available and less expensive than alternative rounds like the .45 ACP or .40 Smith & Wesson.

“Most of what is ‘common knowledge’ with ammunition and its effects on the human target are rooted in myth and folklore. … Handgun stopping power is simply a myth,” the FBI said in its report. “There is little to no noticeable difference in the wound tracks between premium line law Auto enforcement projectiles from 9mm Luger through the .45 Auto.”

The study — which was concluded May 6 but has just been leaked online — comes as the U.S. military is considering a new handgun to replace its decades-old Beretta M9 9mm pistol, and some law enforcement agencies are debating whether to outfit their officers with heavier rounds. The findings may also help civilian gun owners decide which handgun to purchase for self defense and concealed carry.
 

Well I will stay with my 45 acp. Any thing coming from the government is not to believable. I bet they would prefer us to have 9mm instead of something heavier. Why did they buy so many 40 cal rds?


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wrs25936 said:
Well I will stay with my 45 acp. Any thing coming from the government is not to believable. I bet they would prefer us to have 9mm instead of something heavier. Why did they buy so many 40 cal rds?
Click to expand...

You got that kind of backwards there. The FBI is not telling you to carry 9mm, but its agents. Carry want you want. The FBI's decision is based on a number of factors, including a huge miss rate (70-80%). I assume you didn't read the report linked above, before coming up with a government conspiracy theory.
 
Like I said anything coming from the government. It sounds like they are endorsing the 9mm you can take that any way you want. Also I did read the article. I still prefer my 1911. Also I did not say anything about a conspiracy theory you did.

William
 
wrs25936 said:
Like I said anything coming from the government. It sounds like they are endorsing the 9mm you can take that any way you want. Also I did read the article. I still prefer my 1911. Also I did not say anything about a conspiracy theory you did.

William
Click to expand...

Really? Here is your original post:

wrs25936 said:
Well I will stay with my 45 acp. Any thing coming from the government is not to believable. I bet they would prefer us to have 9mm instead of something heavier. Why did they buy so many 40 cal rds?
Click to expand...

Why do you then think the government prefers you to have 9mm? The FBI is switching over to 9mm, because its thinks that it is better for them based on their analysis. Do you believe that the FBI is announcing a switch to 9mm to convince us to switch or stay with 9mm, while it is actually staying with or adopting a different caliber? If so, that would be a conspiracy by the FBI.
 
How do we know the "FBI Report" is even genuine? The webpage reads like prejudiced propaganda toward the caliber the author prefers rather than an actual FBI report. And not only that....why is this breaking news? The "report" is more than 1 year old.
 
So, the argument here seems to be between the 9mm and the .45. Which one kills you "deader"?
 
Personally, I don't think it will matter much to the person being hit with either round because it will hurt like hell and he won't check for caliber. But since the subject is bullets, the Army is now considering a change to the use of hollow-point bullets which has heretofore been illegal and banned by the 1899 Hague Convention. It is odd that the military would then be able to use, on our citizens or others , a round that is illegal for use in combat. Funny how things change, especially to the detriment of we, the people. Regardless, I like hollow-points.


Political MoJo
Previous | Next
→ Guns, Military
Army OKs Hollow-Point Bullets

—By Adam Weinstein
| Tue May 18, 2010 3:33 PM EDT



Army Times today highlights a quiet but notable decision by the Army's top cop: Civilian and military police on US Army bases are now authorized to load their weapons with "jacketed hollow-point bullets." These rounds—which are available for use by civilians in most US states but banned in international conflicts—feature a small depression cut into the slug's nose, usually filled with notched steel. As Army Times puts it, these modifications enable the rounds to "deform and fragment upon striking a hard-tissue target. Mushrooming into a larger diameter, the rounds create a larger wound cavity."

The reason for this policy shift? According to AT, the Army provost marshal general—Brig. General Colleen McGuire, the first woman to reach that post—issued the decision:

...after a gunman opened fire at the Pentagon in March and a deadly shooting spree at Fort Hood in November, and almost a year to the day after the fatal shootings at Camp Liberty, Iraq...The new policy, issued May 10, asserts installation police "require the tools necessary to secure our posts, camps, and stations from both internal and external active shooter threats."

Hollow-point munitions are already highly favored by civilian law enforcement agencies, such as the New York Police Department, which switched to the ammo in 1998. While the damage these munitions do to their target is devastating, they're also considered to be safer to bystanders, since their kinetic energy is lower, and they tend to lodge in whatever they hit directly, rather than passing through or ricocheting. (However, as Norman Siegel of the New York Civil Liberties Union asked in '98: What about when an innocent bystander—or another police officer—is what the bullet hits directly?)

The ultimate irony here is that the Army will now arm itself against internal threats with a munition that's illegal to use in war. The Hague Convention of 1899 bans any lawful combatant from using "bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body, such as bullets with a hard envelope which does not entirely cover the core, or is pierced with incisions." That is to say, steel-jacketed hollow-points.

(It's also not obvious to me that hollow-point bullets would have made much difference when Sgt. John Russell killed five soldiers last May on Baghdad's Camp Liberty, a few hundred yards from me. For one thing, he was unloading on occupants of the base's combat stress control center—the one place on the military's sprawling Victory Base Complex where all the soldiers were unarmed. For another, Russell was armed with an M-16, a rifle that fires slugs at higher velocities and effective ranges than any handgun. While it's not impossible, taking down a rifle shooter with a pistol is tough and dangerous.)

But regardless of the practicalities and legalities, one thing is clear: The military is very concerned, perhaps with good reason, for the safety of its base workers. As they used to say when I was in uniform: Hope for the best; prepare for the worst.



Army OKs Hollow-Point Bullets | Mother Jones
 
Oldgrunt said:
Personally, I don't think it will matter much to the person being hit with either round because it will hurt like hell and he won't check for caliber. But since the subject is bullets, the Army is now considering a change to the use of hollow-point bullets which has heretofore been illegal and banned by the 1899 Hague Convention. It is odd that the military would then be able to use, on our citizens or others , a round that is illegal for use in combat. Funny how things change, especially to the detriment of we, the people. Regardless, I like hollow-points.


Political MoJo
Previous | Next
→ Guns, Military
Army OKs Hollow-Point Bullets

—By Adam Weinstein
| Tue May 18, 2010 3:33 PM EDT



Army Times today highlights a quiet but notable decision by the Army's top cop: Civilian and military police on US Army bases are now authorized to load their weapons with "jacketed hollow-point bullets." These rounds—which are available for use by civilians in most US states but banned in international conflicts—feature a small depression cut into the slug's nose, usually filled with notched steel. As Army Times puts it, these modifications enable the rounds to "deform and fragment upon striking a hard-tissue target. Mushrooming into a larger diameter, the rounds create a larger wound cavity."

The reason for this policy shift? According to AT, the Army provost marshal general—Brig. General Colleen McGuire, the first woman to reach that post—issued the decision:

...after a gunman opened fire at the Pentagon in March and a deadly shooting spree at Fort Hood in November, and almost a year to the day after the fatal shootings at Camp Liberty, Iraq...The new policy, issued May 10, asserts installation police "require the tools necessary to secure our posts, camps, and stations from both internal and external active shooter threats."

Hollow-point munitions are already highly favored by civilian law enforcement agencies, such as the New York Police Department, which switched to the ammo in 1998. While the damage these munitions do to their target is devastating, they're also considered to be safer to bystanders, since their kinetic energy is lower, and they tend to lodge in whatever they hit directly, rather than passing through or ricocheting. (However, as Norman Siegel of the New York Civil Liberties Union asked in '98: What about when an innocent bystander—or another police officer—is what the bullet hits directly?)

The ultimate irony here is that the Army will now arm itself against internal threats with a munition that's illegal to use in war. The Hague Convention of 1899 bans any lawful combatant from using "bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body, such as bullets with a hard envelope which does not entirely cover the core, or is pierced with incisions." That is to say, steel-jacketed hollow-points.

(It's also not obvious to me that hollow-point bullets would have made much difference when Sgt. John Russell killed five soldiers last May on Baghdad's Camp Liberty, a few hundred yards from me. For one thing, he was unloading on occupants of the base's combat stress control center—the one place on the military's sprawling Victory Base Complex where all the soldiers were unarmed. For another, Russell was armed with an M-16, a rifle that fires slugs at higher velocities and effective ranges than any handgun. While it's not impossible, taking down a rifle shooter with a pistol is tough and dangerous.)

But regardless of the practicalities and legalities, one thing is clear: The military is very concerned, perhaps with good reason, for the safety of its base workers. As they used to say when I was in uniform: Hope for the best; prepare for the worst.



Army OKs Hollow-Point Bullets | Mother Jones
Click to expand...

How about posting this in the right thread?: http://www.usacarry.com/forums/handgun-ammunition-reloading/51593-breaking-u-s-army-switching-hollow-point-ammunition.html#post576148. Also, it never was illegal for the US to use such ammunition in war. The US never ratified that part of the Hague Conventions. The only reason why most US forces do not use JHP is to appease other NATO members. US Special Forces have been using JHP ammunition in missions since 1993. The article is dated 2010. Not sure why this article especially calls out steel-jacketed hollow-points (i.e., bullets with a copper-plated steel jacket).
 
I just gave my opinion about something and someone got his panties in a wad. I prefer a 45 rd to a 9mm rd.
If what a said offends someone so be it.

William
 
wrs25936 said:
I just gave my opinion about something and someone got his panties in a wad. I prefer a 45 rd to a 9mm rd.
If what a said offends someone so be it.

William
Click to expand...

I am not offended, just curious. I have seen many arguments about self defense caliber selection. Most of them are close to nonsensical. In many cases, caliber selection gets mixed up with handgun selection, leading to even more nonsensical arguments.

Just to give you an example: 9mm Glock 19 vs. .45 ACP Commander sized 1911. That's a 15+1=16 rounds 9mm gun vs. a 7+1=8 rounds of .45 ACP gun at roughly the same size and loaded weight (1911 is slightly bigger and heavier). A single .45 ACP round is simply not twice as deadly as a single 9mm round.
 
i didn't read the entire article - just what the OP posted. The headline says the FBI is saying 9mm is the best caliber, while the article says they've decided it's the best round for them and LE and that a number of factors were taken into consideration to come to that conclusion - cost, availability, stopping power, etc. So, they could consider 45 a better caliber for stopping power and still choose 9 mm because of cost, availability, # of rounds in a magazine, etc.
 
I have never made a secret of the fact that I am not a big fan of 9mm. After I left my department in 1990, they did away with the deputies carrying personal weapons and issue Berettas, big gun, tiny bullet. If I have to carry a piece as big and heavy as Old Slabsides, by god, I want a bullet that I feel comfortable with, regardless of what the Fumbling Bunch of Idiots says is best. Personally, I now carry .40 S&W in my carry weapon and my new carbine.
 
I guess this will be one of the ongoing great debates. Pros and cons for both calibers. At the end of the day, we carry .45s in my camp because we know in a GF we won't be shooting groups like we do at the range and even SD training. Peripheral hits can still be fight stoppers with the big bullets. JMO
 
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