Encounter last night

[wolf_fire]

Wolf,

I have been approached by a lot of people and helped a lot of people. Everybody from homeless, to the folks that got their car and trailer stuck headfirst in a dead end, in a downtown LA parking garage. I have also volunteered and worked in the big city homeless shelter that is about an hour from us. I have spoken to and helped more people that are down on their luck, than a lot of folks I know. When something happens that feels very much out of place, and not normal, do I want to be prepared? Yes, I do. Did I find it strange that he said he lived two towns, and one county over, and his tags were registered to the same county that we were in then? Yes, I thought it was strange.

Do I know why something felt entirely off about the entire situation? Nope I don't, but I wouldn't have changed anything about how we handled it. What would you all have said if I had the exact same story, except said that we all lost our wallets?

I am not sorry that I couldn't provide you and Blues with an exciting gun battle story. I have been to Massad Ayoob's Mag 40 training, and quite a few hours of local training. I hope I never have to use any of those skills, but I will, if forced to.

The bottom line is, we used it as a lesson for us, on how quickly something can happen. Nothing did happen, and I am glad that nobody here had any other ideas for how were could have acted better. That was my reason for posting.

The reality is, how many encounters have were heard about started out "innocuous" then turned ugly?

As I said at the beginning, I was hoping for any constructive comments, thanks to you all who did.

You guys who didn't like my post? Sorry about that. Peace. I am sure we would be great range buddies if we met in person.

Cheers,

AG

Ok, I'm now more confused after your explanation than I was originally. You now say, the reason you posted was for confirmation that you handled things well. Of course you did. There were four of you looking out for one another versus one of him.

I'm not sure why you thought we were looking for a "gun battle story". My only question was why you were asking members of a firearm community what you should have done differently in a situation that you handled well and weren't allowed to have firearms?

You had this guy outnumbered 4 to 1 and yet were still nervous. Was it his shifty eyes, his body language, etc. These things you didn't make clear. So from reading your story, the reader gets no clear sense of why the "spidey sense" was going off.

Not sure why you think we would not get along just because I expressed my confusion over your story.

 

[agman]

Wolf,

No hard feelings here. I didn't go into more detail about his body language, his heavy breathing, fast approach, the fact that he kept fidgeting with his pockets, etc, because I didn't think folks here would be interested in more details. Sorry for the misunderstanding. In the future, I will do my best to post more details for you all (here's to hoping that never happens :meeting

Cheers,

AG

 

[Seamsealer]

Here's a good read, if you haven't read it before.
Street robberies and you - The Basics - AR15.COM

 

[agman]

Thanks. That is exactly the kind of info that I was hoping to get.

 

[Warrior1256]

I see nothing wrong in the way you handled things. Prepare for the worst, hope for the best. You got the best this time but you never know about the next time.

Sounds right to me.

 

[wolf_fire]

Wolf,

No hard feelings here. I didn't go into more detail about his body language, his heavy breathing, fast approach, the fact that he kept fidgeting with his pockets, etc, because I didn't think folks here would be interested in more details. Sorry for the misunderstanding. In the future, I will do my best to post more details for you all (here's to hoping that never happens :meeting

Cheers,

AG

This isn't necessarily directed at you alone agman... you are just the latest of several in these forums that have taken this route.

When I ask questions for clarity... when I ask questions to make sure I don't assume something... when I ask for more detailed explanations, why is it that people take this as being hostile or that we aren't getting along or that I didn't like a post? This couldn't be further from the truth.

We don't know each other. I cannot possibly assume anything about you and I'm certainly not "disliking" anything or having "hard feelings".

People in the forums... please listen. When someone asks you questions about your post, think about this, they are interested, they want to know more details, they are reaching to you to provide them. When you take it as an act of aggression or take it as being hostile, the whole premise of a DISCUSSION forum gets thrown down the crapper. Don't assume that someone asking you questions is challenging you, think of it as they are interested in knowing more.

Geesh.

Agman, at least you acknowledged this and said "no hard feelings"... of course there are not.

 

[MadMAF]

I'm Massad Ayoob's book 'In the Gravest Extreme' he mentions having a twenty wrapped around a matchbook (held in place with a rubber band) that he'd toss to such people. It allows you keep distance from them. If they continue to approach it gives you time to draw. Not really pertinent to your situation, but it made me think of it and thought I'd share. Unfortunately I can't afford to set twenty aside for such things right now, but it would help prove to the jury that you tried to comply and only shot when they proved that they wanted more than just your money.

 

[BluesStringer]

I'm Massad Ayoob's book 'In the Gravest Extreme' he mentions having a twenty wrapped around a matchbook (held in place with a rubber band) that he'd toss to such people. It allows you keep distance from them. If they continue to approach it gives you time to draw. Not really pertinent to your situation, but it made me think of it and thought I'd share. Unfortunately I can't afford to set twenty aside for such things right now, but it would help prove to the jury that you tried to comply and only shot when they proved that they wanted more than just your money.

I've heard of laws that mandate a duty to retreat, but never heard of one that says law-abiding citizens have a duty to "comply." With that in mind, why would anyone ever need to *prove* to a jury that they tried to comply with being victimized?

I carry a gun because I refuse to be a compliant victim.

Just Link Removed why Massad Ayoob is forever kicked off my must-read list.

Blues

 

[Johnny Dollar]

Just Link Removed why Massad Ayoob is forever kicked off my must-read list.

Blues

I'm sure he's heart broken

 

[SR40c]

agman,

Welcome to the forum. I really hope you are to here become a legitimate member of this forum rather than a pathetic troll like the individual in post #29.

 

[BluesStringer]

I'm sure he's heart broken

If he doesn't care what potential consumers of both his training programs and publications think of him, he's as stupid as you are Johnny Come Lately.

Are you as big a fan of anal torture as Ayoob is too?

Blues

 

[telpinaro]

I've heard of laws that mandate a duty to retreat, but never heard of one that says law-abiding citizens have a duty to "comply." With that in mind, why would anyone ever need to *prove* to a jury that they tried to comply with being victimized?

I carry a gun because I refuse to be a compliant victim.

Just Link Removed why Massad Ayoob is forever kicked off my must-read list.

Blues

I'm actually not seeing the suggestion of tossing someone what looks like a large fold of money as a bad idea. Don't care about proving anything to a jury or trying to be compliant (as a female boy does THAT have implications I'm currently going to ignore), but I sure wouldn't mind an extra second or two with the BG looking somewhere else. I'd rather lose the $20 and have him go away, or have more time to be on target. My goal is to go home to my son every day, and I'll get home a lot quicker if I don't have to shoot anyone.

I might still read his book... I'll just be very carefully choosing which advice to follow.

Definitely agree with you about the blog you linked to... Yeah, cops and hospital want to make sure the guy isn't going to keel over and die on them, but they went just a little above and beyond. (Sarcasm should definitely be detected there.)

 

[BluesStringer]

I'm actually not seeing the suggestion of tossing someone what looks like a large fold of money as a bad idea. Don't care about proving anything to a jury or trying to be compliant (as a female boy does THAT have implications I'm currently going to ignore), but I sure wouldn't mind an extra second or two with the BG looking somewhere else.

I always carry a flashlight. Even 80 or 100 lumens directed in an attacker's eyes can force them to look away. They can't open their eyes to see where you're moving as long as you keep it directed in their eyes. By the time their eyes readjust to not being blinded by the light, you have more potential to be out of reach than if you simply throw a distraction in their direction, but still allow them to watch what you're doing.

The added benefit is that a flashlight comes in handy in many otherwise mundane uses on a daily basis too. Here's just one that can immediately dump 400 lumens with a simple double-click of the on/off switch, is only about 3" long, weighs only about 2 oz., has a removable pocket-clip and is as reliable and durable as anything the "big" makers (SureFire, Streamlight etc.) make, but is priced under $50 bucks.

If you can't afford $50 bucks, here's one that I carry almost every day that's on sale for $15 bucks. It's only 80 lumens max, but it's made well, will last forever and has at least as much potential to distract/blind an attacker as just throwing something his way.

I'd rather lose the $20 and have him go away, or have more time to be on target. My goal is to go home to my son every day, and I'll get home a lot quicker if I don't have to shoot anyone.

Then spend ~$20 bucks on something you can use in your daily life that doubles as a self-defense tool instead of throwing money at someone whom you believe is trying to steal it, or worse, anyway. Throwing money at a potential attacker smacks of something akin to complying with extortion to me. It makes no sense to me on any level when there are so many other ways to cause a distraction that don't involve throwing away either your property or your tactical advantages.

I might still read his book... I'll just be very carefully choosing which advice to follow.

That's certainly up to you, but just remember, everything he says comes from an all-powerful LE perspective, which his take on that cop-and-judge-imposed 14-hour anal gang-bang of an innocent citizen proves unequivocally. Anyone who can make the kinds of excuses for that depth of depravity that Ayoob did in the blog-post I linked to is disqualified from teaching me anything ever again. It is pure evil what happened to that man, and Ayoob made excuse after excuse after shameless excuse for it all. I don't take advice from people who have identified themselves as being on the side of pure evil, and suggest that anyone who doesn't see what he says in that blog-post as being evil, reconsider it.

Blues

 

[wolf_fire]

I might still read his[Massad Ayoob's] book... I'll just be very carefully choosing which advice to follow.

Definitely agree with you about the blog you linked to... Yeah, cops and hospital want to make sure the guy isn't going to keel over and die on them, but they went just a little above and beyond. (Sarcasm should definitely be detected there.)

That's certainly up to you, but just remember, everything he says comes from an all-powerful LE perspective, which his take on that cop-and-judge-imposed 14-hour anal gang-bang of an innocent citizen proves unequivocally. Anyone who can make the kinds of excuses for that depth of depravity that Ayoob did in the blog-post I linked to is disqualified from teaching me anything ever again. It is pure evil what happened to that man, and Ayoob made excuse after excuse after shameless excuse for it all. I don't take advice from people who have identified themselves as being on the side of pure evil, and suggest that anyone who doesn't see what he says in that blog-post as being evil, reconsider it.

Blues

Always consider the source of whatever you read. At this point, anything I read from Ayoob has got to be tinged with an over zealous, jack booted thug mentality. He has proven that what is right is less important than defending a cop no matter what they have done. He has tarnished the thin blue line by making excuses for the horrific evil that those other cops did.

Reading Ayood for instruction would be akin to wanting to become a leader in my field and I decided to read Mein Kampf for ideas. This is how I feel after what Ayoob wrote.

 

[hogwylde]

Unfortunately

Here is what we learned. We should have called the police and reported his license plate. As it is, nobody wrote it down. We should have armed up, as soon as somebody was outside of the building (the reality is, I wouldn't have done anything different, except for telling him to stay back).

What would you have told the police? That an intimidating looking guy asked you for a ride/couple of bucks?

 

[Johnny Dollar]

I'm Massad Ayoob's book 'In the Gravest Extreme' he mentions having a twenty wrapped around a matchbook (held in place with a rubber band) that he'd toss to such people. It allows you keep distance from them. If they continue to approach it gives you time to draw. Not really pertinent to your situation, but it made me think of it and thought I'd share. Unfortunately I can't afford to set twenty aside for such things right now, but it would help prove to the jury that you tried to comply and only shot when they proved that they wanted more than just your money.

The 20 dollar bill idea was more directed at muggers and what Ayoob said was he keeps a throw away wallet with a bucnh of expired creditcards and 20 bucks in it to throw to the bad guy should the need arise.

If some random dumb ass tried to blind me with a flash light I'd take it as a very agressive move

 

[XD9_MS]

I always carry a flashlight. Even 80 or 100 lumens directed in an attacker's eyes can force them to look away.

But what if the potential attacker feels immediately threatened thinking that you drawn your weapon and not a flashlight and instantly open fire?

 

[Johnny Dollar]

But what if the potential attacker feels immediately threatened thinking that you drawn your weapon and not a flashlight and instantly open fire?

He isn't talking about flashing a potential attacker he's talking about random panhandlers that get closer than he likes

 

[BluesStringer]

But what if the potential attacker feels immediately threatened thinking that you drawn your weapon and not a flashlight and instantly open fire?

To tell you the truth, I was just trying to think of a viable alternative to throwing away my money to someone I've already identified as a threat. I wouldn't throw a $20 bill at 'em if they were close enough to be a threat anymore than I would fiddle around with a flashlight if a person I've already identified as a threat got that close, but given the scenario being discussed, I'd go for the flashlight before I'd throw away money as a form of extorted payment for "protection" from a common street thug. If they were that close, and obviously threatening enough to make me think about throwing money or a few hundred lumens of light in their eyes, my weapon would be the first thing I'd reached for, not money or a flashlight.

I learned enough about tactics to have come to that conclusion 20 years before I ever heard the name Massad Ayoob. He is not the be all, end all of concealed carry tactics, and after his blog post about supporting the cops and medical personnel who put a 100% innocent man through 14 hours of body cavity torture, he is nothing to me at all, and never will be again, and odds are that my tactics will serve me such that I never have to draw my weapon for the rest of my life in spite of ignoring his JBT-oriented advice, just like they have for the last 35 years of daily carrying a weapon.

Blues

 

[CharlesMorrison]

Are you as big a fan of anal torture as Ayoob is too?

Blues

I bet he would be... If only he could keep his head out of it!

Link Removed


Sent from behind Enemy Lines.