Cycling assault.


Axeanda45

Banned
Using lethal force for what was described as a non-lethal mugging may not go well for you from a legal perspective. That scenario as described would probaly not justify lethal force in most states. I can see where the situation as described could go in a more lethal direction, which would make my first choice the pepper spray, and then a gun if the situation worsened and warranted such. It is difficult because being on a bike puts the individual in a complex reactive position that can make any type of defensive move more difficult.

That scenario as described would not justify lethal force????? What universe are you from? 2 against 1 would be grounds for use of lethal force in all 50 states...... So would being "jumped" and knocked off your bike in a robbery....
 

worshipviolin

WorshipViolin
That scenario as described would not justify lethal force?????

I would have to agree with that. If someone jumped out from nowhere, yanked me off of my moving bicycle, and my body slammed to the ground, I would pretty much feel that they, at the least, meant to inflict serious injury to my body. If I were able to act in this situation, that bad guy might get more than just a good old fashioned ear pulling. He very well may end up with an extra bullet or two in his body. Much more likely so if there were a second BG present.
 

localgirl

New member
Maybe if someone politely stepped out into the trail, motioned for me to stop, then proceeded to somehow relieve me of my wallet without force...maybe that doesn't justify force...but if someone knocks me over violently, undoubtedly causing injury, and attempts to assault my person, I MAY not shoot, but someone besides me is going to be bleeding.
 

father-of-three

New member
That scenario as described would not justify lethal force????? What universe are you from? 2 against 1 would be grounds for use of lethal force in all 50 states...... So would being "jumped" and knocked off your bike in a robbery....

Not all attacks justify the use of lethal force. One needs to take account of where they are, what the attacker has, as well as several other circumstances. I think I was reasonably clear in describing my position that such force may be necessary. Please make sure you are aware of the laws in all 50 states before making your assumption about them. My state is improving on this matter, but the recently passed "Stand your ground" measures will not go into effect until August 27 of this year. So in this scenario, using lethal force against 2 people whose only weapon may be "the element of surprise," may not go well from a legal standpoint, being that a trail in the woods is not my home.
 

Axeanda45

Banned
An actual attack with 2 against one is ALWAYS a justified reason for using deadly force to stop the attack... It does NOT depend on what ***king State you are in, 2 people are attacking you.... if you stop to ponder what the damn law is before you defend yourself, you are an idiot of the highest measure.....


To put it just a little more nicely....... Once you are outnumbered, all bets are off, do whatever you need to do...... To even think of planning otherwise (because of what State you happen to be in) is complete ignorance and will cost you your life..... How did that work out for ya? at least you didnt "break the law"... too bad yer dead....
 

worshipviolin

WorshipViolin
Here's an Option

Here is an interesting option: Link Removed

The bad guy would never be able to rip this off of your body or use a knife to easily cut it free like he could a fanny pack. It would take too much effort & time for him to detach it, but it would be easy for you to get to your gun.
Link RemovedLink Removed

Just a thought.
 

Hoganbeg

Member
A fanny pack is not a purse with a long dangling strap that can easily be cut and carried off. Also, it should be worn in the front or side of the body. The only way someone could cut off my fanny pack without cutting my flesh as well (because I don't wear it loosely) is if they are close to me and using their other hand to create a space between my body and the strap. Again, that puts them within my striking distance. Besides, how did they get that close to me without my taking action? If its that blind a corner they could conceivable pull me off of my bike, but while they are doing that I can disable them. I'm not trying to brag here because I know that anyone can be sucker-punched, but, with even a modicum of situational awareness, and bit of training, and most importantly, the WILL to fight back, this type of attack can be overcome. I suggest we could set up a training scenario with like-minded others and play this out. That would give us some answers. How hard is it to rip a fanny pack from someone?(on the back, front, either side?) What defensive moves work best from a bicycle? Can they remove you with one hand or will they need both? How does that affect your options? Just thinking through the situations will give us a big advantage when and if the time ever comes for real. Think bout it! Be Safe!
 

worshipviolin

WorshipViolin
I'm trying to think of different ways that this scenario can play out. If anything can go wrong, it will from time to time. My comments below are not meant to be attacks. Please don't take them that way. They are just more things to think about if this ever happens to any of us.


A fanny pack is not a purse with a long dangling strap that can easily be cut and carried off.

Pickpockets all over the world steal them by slashing the strap with razors/boxcutters every day. If a pickpocket can do it in a stealthy manner, then someone who is willing to knock you off of a bicycle to rob you is probably not going to be worried about being gentle with that blade. Knocking you off of the bike is a tactical move that carries with it the intentions of disabling you, at least to a degree.

The only way someone could cut off my fanny pack without cutting my flesh as well...

Exactly. I don't want to give the bad guy the benefit of the doubt. What if the bad guy doesn't care if he cuts you in the process of trying to take the fanny pack. Maybe, if it's tight, he won't be able to effectivly cut it free, but he may cut you up badly while he is trying to get it. Yes, if he is that close to you, you might have the opportunity to fight back, but if he happens to have a box cutter in his hand at that range, you may still end up looking like Swiss cheese after you get done showing him all of your moves.

Besides, how did they get that close to me without my taking action? If its that blind a corner they could conceivable pull me off of my bike, but while they are doing that I can disable them.

Anything is possible. Just because you cannot see them doesn't mean that they cannot see you. The element of surprise has been used to take down many prepared men. As much as we might prepare and train (which is good to do), there is always the fact that sometimes things happen that we just do not see coming.

this type of attack can be overcome.

Sometimes. And sometimes you end up looking like Swiss cheese.


What defensive moves work best from a bicycle? Can they remove you with one hand or will they need both? How does that affect your options? Just thinking through the situations will give us a big advantage when and if the time ever comes for real.

Good questions. How many hands? No one can guess how the BG would do it. My first thoughts would be that he would use two hands. What about inertia and momentum? Would they work for us or against us? I don't know. If I were yanked from a moving bike, I imagine that my balance would be lost for a couple of seconds (or more), I may be stunned or even injured from crashing to the ground. How well could I fight with a broken wrist or ankle? Could I manage to get my gun with my weak hand if my wrist is broken on my strong hand side, while I am having to fight him off with the broken wrist side? I hope that I don't have to find out.

Nothing is set in stone when it comes to any scenario. There are just too many things that could go differently each time that they are played out. What if you land on the back of your head, breaking your neck? What if you land on your feet? What if the BG loses his balance and falls on you, accidentally shoving his blade into your gut as he falls? What if he pulls at your pack, accidentally pulling it open (exposing the gun). Will he get the gun? Will he use it? What if... Many different things could happen that might give you the upper hand, or many things can happen that might give him the upper hand. Anything can go wrong... or go right. Just some thoughts.
 

coachdb18

New member
Something I remember in my long distant past, was an assault on me when I was a kid delivering newspapers. In my case, my assailant was a German Shepard... and being as scared as I was at the time, simply reacted to those bared fangs coming at me, with plenty of barking and snarling. The only thing I had available was that bicycle, and I used it to beat the living **** out of that dog. Bet he didn't see that coming! If a bicycle is available to you, then you use it! If you need more, escalate!
 

worshipviolin

WorshipViolin
The only thing I had available was that bicycle, and I used it to beat the living **** out of that dog. Bet he didn't see that coming! If a bicycle is available to you, then you use it! If you need more, escalate!

That's hillarious! When I was a kid, there were some dogs that always became vicious along a stretch of road that I often traveled on my bike. Being scared, I started carrying a hammer with me. I ran the handle of it through a belt loop and I was ready! I never did hit one of them. I always managed to keep enough distance to keep from having to use it. Even though I never had to use it, I felt so much safer carrying it. I haven't thought of that in years until I read your post. Ahhh, the adventures of my childhood!
 

Hoganbeg

Member
You need to make the other guy fear you more than you fear him. Luck favors the person who is prepared ahead of time. This comes not just from having a weapon, but from knowing how to fight, body mechanics, vital targets, & combat psychology. As was pointed out-a bicycle can be an effective weapon.
 

worshipviolin

WorshipViolin
You need to make the other guy fear you more than you fear him. Luck favors the person who is prepared ahead of time.

Good luck with that. After all, he was so afraid of you that he grabbed you off of a moving bicycle and slung you to the ground like a sack of taters.

This comes not just from having a weapon, but from knowing how to fight, body mechanics, vital targets, & combat psychology. As was pointed out-a bicycle can be an effective weapon.

Awesome, if your bike doesn't go ten feet from where your butt hit the ground. We should go in business and get rich selling tactical bicycles! Mine just doesn't have what it takes.

I guess we'll never know exactly how to handle this scenario until it happens. It would have to be played by ear because every little detail could be different than what we have tried to describe. As pointed out, training and awareness could be the very factors that save you as long as the "what if's" do not rob you of your ability to be victorious.

Now..... steering back to the original subject of this thread, I wonder what would be the best way to conceal while riding a bicycle.
 

BC1

,
What abou a fanny pack holster?
I carry a S&W 637 5-shot .38 cal with a CT LaserGrip in a fanny pack or in the side zip-pocket of my camelback. In the camelback I secure it in a nylon holster with velcro retention strap. I always carried it to scare off the occasional bear or coyote but the OP makes me think. My wife also carries one when she rides alone.
 

Peregrine Falcon

Peregrine Falcon
I suggest we could set up a training scenario with like-minded others and play this out. That would give us some answers. How hard is it to rip a fanny pack from someone?(on the back, front, either side?) What defensive moves work best from a bicycle? Can they remove you with one hand or will they need both? How does that affect your options? Just thinking through the situations will give us a big advantage when and if the time ever comes for real.

This is one of the best suggestions on here for both deciding how to carry and what to do in the actual situation. I commute by bicycle and ride for exercise and I have thought about this a bit but not to the level you all just have. I think this discussion is worthy of a soft-air-gun simulation to see what would and wouldn't work. Although the thought of getting knocked off one's bike for practice doesn't sound all that fun.

After thinking through my own situation (which is not that unique) things become a lot more complicated. What I do is I keep my gun in a frame wedge (a bag that sits below and forward of the seat secured by 4 velcrow straps) but after reading through this that may not be the best solution even for me. If someone knocked me off my bike and was after my bike they'd get my gun too and that would not be good (even if they didn't find it until later).

To further complicate the scenario many cyclists (myself included) ride with their feet clipped in to their pedals. That adds two considerations, first it's harder to take your bike away, second it's a LOT easier to knock you over (I would say one hand would do it in response to another comment). Even without that, if someone attacks you when you're on a bicycle you're likely going to go down to one side or the other. Think about the fact that you will have no control over what side that is. If you're gun is attached to one side or the other youv'e got a 50/50 chance it will be the "wrong" side and that being knocked sideways will make accessing your weapon more difficult. If it's behind your back, again 50/50 chance that if you're on your side there will be pavement between your hand and your gun; with feet clipped to pedals rolling over to fix that gets MUCH harder. Third complication to having feet clipped to pedals is it's harder to use your legs/feet as weapons.

After thinking through all of that I'm thinking that carrying in front of you would be the best option however you chose to accomplish that. There are links/pictures of 2 holsters in this thread that would do just that. If it's attached to the front of you it's accessable by either hand no matter which side you're laying on. A fanny pack would do that too although potential problems with that are well documented here. Carrying in a bag (on you or the bike) is a frequently considered options for cyclists as it's hard to conceal a handgun under spandex and tight bike jersey's. Open carry is legal in my state now and I might just have to think more about carrying that way on my bike. The sight of the gun just might end the attack before it starts and that would be the best scenario I can think of.
 

Grognard Gunny

New member
My wife and I are fond of "long" runs (Long for us, anyway. LOL!) through the countryside on our bikes. Our worst threat factors are dogs, despite "loose dog" Laws. Generally they put up a show of "defending" their "turf", but rarely (one in fifteen or so) will come out into the road to confront us. We both carry pepper spray for the first line of defence.

The second threat is motorists who seem to believe that bicycles have no place on the road at all. NC does have most explicit Laws addressing the "equal rights" cyclists have vis-a-vis vehicles.... But, it does bear observing that if less than 50% of drivers can be convinced of the usefulness of turn signals, I rather doubt that the subtle intricacies of other rules of the road would penetrate their thick skulls. There IS no defence against a motorist that kills you, purposely or not. Simply too little reaction time.

The third threat are the vehicle "stalkers". My wife has had encounters with two of them over the past couple of years. One she avoided by turning into a town area, the second she called me at home and I came roaring to the rescue, armed for bear. Once I pulled up and she pointed out to me the "stalker vehicle", they took off, too far away for me to have gotten a license number. Thus, our second line of defence are carry pistols.

She carries hers in a belly band, S&W .357 snubbie. I carry mine in a handle bar "bag"/map holder gadget that I leave the top unzipped so I can "get to" my Ruger SP 101 if needed. (Fits rather nicely in a side pouch inside, IWB soft holster and all.) (I'd use a belly band also, but I sweat off five pounds a trip and I'd probably just rust my pistol quickly.)

The last threat, and I have only run across it once, is a wild dog "pack". We didn't "carry" at the time of the incident, and we could have used up our pepper sprays and still have enough mutts left over to give us a hard time. We were forced to cut through a cemetary to avoid confrontation. Again, the guns would have been the proper defence mechanism if TSHTF. Pick off most aggressive, scare the pack left.

So, even a simple ride in the sunshine requires situational awareness and an armory!

GG
 

BCunningham

New member
mount a boat horn on your bike after they get over the shock of the horn you might have time to get your gun out lol good luck
b
 

Axeanda45

Banned
BCunningham,

Good suggestion! would probably work well on most dogs....Not so well on 2 footed ones though....

Welcome to the forum.
 

Nightmare45

NRA LIFE MEMBER
Two against one armed old man, sounds fair to me, colt makes us equal.

Or: You could take out the chalk and police tape and mark where YOU hit the ground and dial 911 because the police only 15 minutes or more away.

Or: You should sell your bike and never own another because it is obvious your bike caused the incident to take place. Demand tough anti bike laws.
 

Grognard Gunny

New member
On the other hand, moving, usually in excess of ten MPH (or better), on a bike and letting your "situational awareness" get so lax that a person CAN make a grab at you on a bike......... Like the sports commentator was heard to say: "COME ON, MAN!"

GG
 

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