CPl holder open caryying in pistol free zones

[Jason1221]

CPl holder open carrying in pistol free zones

Is it true a Michigan cpl holder can open carry in pistol free zones? Excluding Goverment property's.
This js don't make sense.

 

[alduane]

They can open carry in areas restricted to open carry. Don't confuse those zones with the PFZ's for concealed carry.

 

[Jason1221]

I see now. So aslong as we're concealed we can carry in open carry restrictions but still not in pfz. Thnx I thaught it sounded funny lol

 

[Bikenut]

I see now. So aslong as we're concealed we can carry in open carry restrictions but still not in pfz. Thnx I thaught it sounded funny lol

Folks who have a CPL in Michigan, while they cannot concealed carry, most certainly CAN open carry in most, but not all, of the PFZ's.



There is a difference between places off limits to "possessing" a firearm, ANY firearm including pistols.... and Pistol Free Zones listed for where concealed carry of a pistol is illegal.

The places off limits to possessing a firearm do not apply to a person with a CPL... and that means that person can carry openly or concealed as they might wish.

But the PFZ's that apply to concealed carry also do not apply to a person who has a CPL and is carrying openly.

Confused? I don't blame you... please.. please.. go to

Link Removed

to learn how the different laws in Michigan work together in a very convoluted way.

 

[alduane]

I see now. So aslong as we're concealed we can carry in open carry restrictions but still not in pfz. Thnx I thaught it sounded funny lol

Actually, if you have a CPL you can carry openly in open carry restrictions. A bar or school for instance: if you have a CPL you can carry openly but not concealed because it is a PFZ for concealed carry. It can be confusing.

 

[Jason1221]

So a person without a permit cannot open carry in a school. But because I have a cpl I cannot conceal but I can open carry in a school? Wow messed up confusing lol

 

[X1911]

How about we look at applicable laws to help make some sense here. The first law we will look at is 750.234d which does not in anyway apply to those who have a CPL. If you do not have a CPL you may not have in your possession any firearm. Many even go as far to say you cannot have it in your car if you're the parking lot. Also note "h" even applies to stores like Meijer who sell alcohol.

750.234d Possession of firearm on certain premises prohibited; applicability; violation as misdemeanor; penalty.
Sec. 234d. (1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following:
(a) A depository financial institution or a subsidiary or affiliate of a depository financial institution.
(b) A church or other house of religious worship.
(c) A court.
(d) A theatre.
(e) A sports arena.
(f) A day care center.
(g) A hospital.
(h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act, Act No. 8 of the Public Acts of the Extra Session of 1933, being sections 436.1 to 436.58 of the Michigan Compiled Laws. (2) This section does not apply to any of the following: (a) A person who owns, or is employed by or contracted by, an entity described in subsection
(1) if the possession of that firearm is to provide security services for that entity.
(b) A peace officer.
(c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.
(d) A person who possesses a firearm on the premises of an entity described in subsection (1) if that
possession is with the permission of the owner or an agent of the owner of that entity.

Next we look at the law which prohibits weapons from being in a "weapon free school zone". This is not to be confused with the federal gun free school zone act which does not apply to those in Michigan who legally own pistols. Note there are other exemptions than what I am posting but for our discussion this is all we need. Note this specific law does not apply to those who have a CPL.

750.237a Individuals engaging in proscribed conduct
(4) Except as provided in subsection (5), an individual who possesses a weapon in a weapon free school zone is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by 1 or more of the following:
(a) Imprisonment for not more than 93 days. (b) Community service for not more than 100 hours. (c) A fine of not more than $2,000.00.
(5) Subsection (4) does not apply to any of the following:
(a) An individual employed by or contracted by a school if the possession of that weapon is to provide
security services for the school.
(b) A peace officer.
(c) An individual licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.

We now look at 28.425o which deals with places where someone who is licensed to carry a pistol by the state of Michigan cannot carry a CONCEALED pistol.

28.425o Premises on which carrying concealed weapon prohibited; “premises” defined; exceptions to subsection (1); violation; penalties.
Sec. 5o. (1) Subject to subsection (4), an individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from licensure under section 12a(1)(f), shall not carry a concealed pistol on the premises of any of the following:
(a) A school or school property except that a parent or legal guardian of a student of the school is not precluded from carrying a concealed pistol while in a vehicle on school property, if he or she is dropping the student off at the school or picking up the child from the school. As used in this section, "school" and "school property" mean those terms as defined in section 237a of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.237a.
(b) A public or private child care center or day care center, public or private child caring institution, or public or private child placing agency.
(c) A sports arena or stadium.
(d) A bar or tavern licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, where the primary source of income of the business is the sale of alcoholic liquor by the glass and consumed on the premises. This subdivision does not apply to an owner or employee of the business. The Michigan liquor control commission shall develop and make available to holders of licenses under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, an appropriate sign stating that "This establishment prohibits patrons from carrying concealed weapons". The owner or operator of an establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, may, but is not required to, post the sign developed under this subdivision. A record made available by an establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, necessary to enforce this subdivision is exempt from disclosure under the freedom of information act, 1976 PA 442, MCL 15.231 to 15.246.
(e) Any property or facility owned or operated by a church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship, unless the presiding official or officials of the church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship permit the carrying of concealed pistol on that property or facility.
(f) An entertainment facility with a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals that the individual knows or should know has a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals or that has a sign above each public entrance stating in letters not less than 1-inch high a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals.
(g) A hospital.
(h) A dormitory or classroom of a community college, college, or university.

(2) An individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from licensure under section 12a(1)(f), shall not carry a concealed pistol in violation of R 432.1212 or a successor rule of the Michigan administrative code promulgated under the Michigan gaming control and revenue act, 1996 IL 1, MCL 432.201 to 432.226.

Unless you are in a "special class" and meet an exemption under this law you cannot carry a concealed pistol in any of these places. Parking lots are not included under 28.425o and section "2" only applies to the privately owned casinos in Detroit. If you do OC in one of them you are in violation of a "rule". If there are any legal ramifications I don't know. So basically if you have a CPL you cannot carry a concealed pistol in any place listed under 28.425o. You can however open carry in any of those places legally. Note that carry in a court, openly or concealed, with or without a CPL, is generally illegal as most courts prohibit them and if you do you can be charged with contempt.

 

[Jason1221]

To many close lines. I think I'll just keep doing like I've been doing all along and stay out of PFZ's or if I do have to just lock my carry gun up. Thnx everyone.

 

[Jason1221]

I just don't understand. Michigan being a open carry state. Why would someone with a cpl be allowed to open carry in them places and someone without a cpl not be allowed.

 

[Jason1221]

But I guess alot of laws don't make sense lol thnx a bunch though

 

[Bikenut]

My sincere thanks to you xmanhockey7 for explaining this confusing issue. Although I understand how the laws work in Michigan I am just unable to explain them as clearly and concisely as you just did.

 

[X1911]

I just don't understand. Michigan being a open carry state. Why would someone with a cpl be allowed to open carry in them places and someone without a cpl not be allowed.

Because politicians see it as "well they have training and are licensed and blah blah blah". Those without a CPL can hardly carry in Michigan because well look at how many places have liquor licenses (that's the big one). We find there is normally a bit of a learning curve when it comes to understanding it.

 

[X1911]

My sincere thanks to you xmanhockey7 for explaining this confusing issue. Although I understand how the laws work in Michigan I am just unable to explain them as clearly and concisely as you just did.

You're welcome. I understand the laws can be confusing and hard to explain. I've spent enough time on OCDO that I've got it down pretty well.

 

[ezkl2230]

So a person without a permit cannot open carry in a school. But because I have a cpl I cannot conceal but I can open carry in a school? Wow messed up confusing lol

That is exactly correct. Michigan law assumes open carry. OC is legal because there is no law saying that it is illegal. CC, on the other hand, faces several limitations. The fact that someone with a CPL can OC in a pistol free zone, but not CC, is exactly why we are working to establish OC/CC parity. Let's face it, there have been exactly ZERO instances in Michigan pistol free zones involving a CPL holder that was exercising their right to OC. Why in the world would that change just because the method of carry changes?! So now we have SB 59 being debated in the state senate. If you want to OC in a pistol free zone and possess a CPL, SB 59 will require you to take another 9 hours of class, expend another 2 boxes of ammo (it increases the number of rounds required to obtain a CPL in the first place from 30 to nearly 100), and then submit a WRITTEN REQUEST for an exception. As I have been arguing for quite a while now, this is a blatant violation of the Equal Protection clause of the US Constitution, and places an undue burden on firearms owners based solely on the method of carry. If it is legal to OC in a pistol free zone when in possession of a CPL without any additional requirements, then there is no logical reason why someone wishing to exercise their right to CC should be subject to additional requirements.

We need everyone to contact their Senators in Lansing to support OC/CC parity. And then, if we can get that passed in the state senate, it will be time to bring down all the pressure we can on the state house, especially on Speaker Jase Bolger, who has already warned our representatives that he expects them to drag their feet on passage of this legislation. He claims that our right to carry is too "emotional" to fast-track - as if our right to carry is based on the emotions of the anti-Second Amendment gang instead of the Constitution he and other legislators swore to uphold and protect.

 

[Jason1221]

Thnx. And yes we all need to write or email to Lansing. And every week if we need to.

 

[Rocketgeezer]

One thing is very plain to see the open/concealed laws are very confusing to a lot of people, even the suposedly intelligent ones, as I have said before several times, legal or not if you use your weapon in a self defence situation, 9 times out of 10, right or wrong, its going to cost you a legal fortune, so whatever zone you may be in, open/concealed approved or not, keep your gun concealed, KEEP QUIET ABOUT IT, AT ALL TIMES, and keep yourself protected, do any of you honestly think a BG is going to give a crap if its a gun free zone or not?........at least you will still be alive........and if it was a rightous shoot, there should be minimal reprocusions

 

[alduane]

I just don't understand. Michigan being a open carry state. Why would someone with a cpl be allowed to open carry in them places and someone without a cpl not be allowed.

Because the law restricting open carry was written when concealed carry was May Issue. It was assumed that if you had a CPL back then that you had been vetted by the higher powers and could be trusted. When they passed Shall Issue the previous law wasn't changed and made what some see as a "loop hole" in the law. Trust me, there are many who would like to close that loop hole after they became aware of it.

 

[Jason1221]

Funny that's 1 thing I've always said. If they know u have it-it's only because u needed it. And then your alive to deal with any consequences. I like the idea of sb-59. But can't figure out why another 9hr class is required. I think it's just a $$$ thing so they can charge us all for another license.

 

[Jason1221]

You are right. Does anyone think because a BG don't have a license that he won't carry a gun into a casino,bank,bar etc.etc. to commit a crime? I don't realy think he is gonna follow the law lol. If anything a BG would be less likely to try and rob someone coming out of a casino or bank if he's not sure who has guns and who don't.

 

[Firefighterchen]

In response to rocket geezer and the op:

Id hate to turn this into an CC vs OC...but...

I agree it will usually cost a fortune if you have to defend yourself.

That is one big reason I open carry, to be proactively stopping the common criminal from choosing me.

In the end I still wish you guys didn't have the infringement on cc in those kill boxes...good luck with your representatives.