CCW Holder shot by LVMPD - Justified?????

[Cocked _and_Locked]

"I feel sorry for the guy, but he just made a dumb move," the 72-year-old man said.

Sounds like a Darwin award nomination to me. Like one of these biker fellers here that say they would have tried the quick-draw McGraw thing on the Leo that might have shot them for riding high-speed wheelies in traffic. :hang3:

 

[danfordman]

Funny how the video is not been located yet, almost a week after the incident. Still sounding fishy, could be a Darwin Award or a cover up at this point. Just following along to find out results of the video. I am very interested to see which witness statements are actually true.

 

[Bighouse Doc]

Won't be the first time video gets lost when an LEO screws up!

-Doc

 

[Wolfling68]

This is a direct result of the militarization of the police. A 30 year retired LEO explained it to me this way: Police are being traing in law enforcement rather than police work. In Police Work, you see someone with their feet up on a bench, you tell them to put their feet down. In Law enforcement, you walk up, write them a citation. End results to the community, person puts his feet down. In Police Work, the situation has just ended, in Law Enforcement, it has just begun, now there is a trial, court costs, lost productivity, bad feelings towards police, fines, jail time, etc, etc.

Now, the police are being trained to take control of the situation by immediately dominating and controlling the "suspect" and environment. This is very escalating behavior (and the reason many people think that LEOs are A-holes). I am seeing more and more of this on youtube. Police pulling guns on people who are clearly non-violent. I saw a video of a LEO shooting an unarmed man on a motorcycle for no visible reason.

I was not there for this shooting, nor have I seen the video. BUT I will guarantee the police approached the victim in a very agressive manner, with guns drawn, yelling at him the entire time. How would it have turned out had one of them drawn his weapon and stayed out of the victim's line of sight, while the other approached calmly and said "excuse me, please keep your hands in sight. Are you carrying a gun?" Police covered, no escalation of violence, everyone goes home that evening. Yes, this will not always be an option, and won't always work. But I have been on the receiving end of both of these approaches, I know which one my adrenalin hit and I was motivated more by fight or flight than reason.

 

[kn1080]

The brutally murdered a soldier. They need to be killed, immediately. Lets hurry up and get the trial over so we can get to the part where people get to enjoy watching them die.

 

[danfordman]

From what im gathering here is that the police have the survelliance video but are not releasing it. Heres the latest news update:

Link Removed

 

[BigSlick]

From what im gathering here is that the police have the survelliance video but are not releasing it. Heres the latest news update:

Link Removed

Not surprised by this. If the video backed up the reports the police claimed it would have been playing on CNN for the last several days. Very fishy.

 

[Boomer]

This is a direct result of the militarization of the police.

Excellent point! I had not noticed because of the slow insidious nature of the change but once you brought it to light the truth of it became clear.

 

[danfordman]

Police are being training law enforcement rather than police work. In Police Work, you see someone with their feet up on a bench, you tell them to put their feet down. In Law enforcement, you walk up, write them a citation. End results to the community, person puts his feet down. In Police Work, the situation has just ended, in Law Enforcement, it has just begun, now there is a trial, court costs, lost productivity, bad feelings towards police, fines, jail time, etc, etc.

True fact, My Grandfather's brother (granduncle) was the sheriff of San Diego from 1967 thru 1969 retired after 30 years and my Father was a LEO for eight years while he was attending college. Both will agree this is true. My uncle was a real cowboy, like John Wayne and prided himself on the non use of his firearm. Many people do not realize the difference, you explained it well.


Police report they still have not viewed video surveillance tape, but claim they have sent it for forensic examination because of a technical issue with Costco's recording equipment. Police have also refused to release the 911 tapes and do not plan on doing a corners inquest until September, I wonder if they think waiting two months will buy them time or think the public will gradually lose interest in this incident as time passes? I personally will be following this thru daily. I will continue to share any information I come across as well.
This evenings news updates:
Link Removed

 

[44WCF]

I agree that something about this stinks. Police have been trained that they are the law in this State and only need a judge to validate their actions. This is usually done with the defendent being found guilty by reason of charges being brought against them and having to defend their innocence.

I fully agree that our "police" agencies are far too militarized. SWAT is the only example you need.

 

[dswickard]

Be Smart

I agree with Boomer and Gunsite. Excellent advice from Gunsite. When a police officer gives you instructions, follow them to the letter. Do not second guess them. This should definitely be imprinted on everyones eyelids so that it is a constant reminder.

We may never know what the final story is here, but I hope that you keep us all informed of the final outcome of this.

A valuable lesson to us all. Be vigilent, be smart, stay alive.

 

[rkurashima]

This has been speculated and may not be the case in this particular situation, but what if you get conflicting instructions from LE? What if you come walking out of a store, CC weapons on you, but holstered. You have nothing in your hand except what you purchased and a receipt. You meet up with three LEOs drawn down on you outside screaming different commands? Maybe one saying, "Get down!! Get Down!!" one saying,” Stop!! Don’t move!!” and one saying,” Drop your weapon!!!” Compliance isn’t as cut and dried at that point and it takes knowing what action will render the best results. We should all think about how to best handle ourselves in this scenario because it is very likely this could happen. Especially with rookies involved who may react on pure adrenaline versus years of training and experience. I know exactly what I would do in this situation, but it involves disobeying one of the officer's commands.

 

[wolfhunter]

I agree with Boomer and Gunsite. Excellent advice from Gunsite. When a police officer gives you instructions, follow them to the letter. Do not second guess them. This should definitely be imprinted on everyones eyelids so that it is a constant reminder.

OOOH, look a voluntary serf. "The police are the authority, just shut up and do what they tell you. Give them your guns and your printing equipment. The State-authorized worship service scheduled is posted in town square and you are directed to attend."

 

[GETMRUTN]

As much as I think the Police didnt give enough time before shooting, I also feel this guy probably had an ego. Like many have said, when confronted by Police with guns drawn on you, your first action should be hands high. I hate to say it but why did he go and try to show the Police he had a gun? I was in the Army 21 years and have been around a lot of West Pointers. They do have big Ego's. She should have known not to challenge the police in any manner. I also teach this in my CCW Classed. If the Officers feel they are threatened just like a CCW holder is justified in shooting a bad guy if he fears for his life then the Police are the same way.

If you as a CCW holder knows the person is carrying a weapon and reaches for that weapon, what would you do? Would you fear for your own life and family if they are present? I know I would. If you wait and see what he will do with the weapon then I may be to late. You just never know. We could what if this all day. I understand the officer are held to a higher standard but when feeling threatend I think they will act the same as a CCW holder. Just my thoughts and .02

 

[mrsandman224455]

As much as I think the Police didnt give enough time before shooting, I also feel this guy probably had an ego. Like many have said, when confronted by Police with guns drawn on you, your first action should be hands high. I hate to say it but why did he go and try to show the Police he had a gun? I was in the Army 21 years and have been around a lot of West Pointers. They do have big Ego's. She should have known not to challenge the police in any manner. I also teach this in my CCW Classed. If the Officers feel they are threatened just like a CCW holder is justified in shooting a bad guy if he fears for his life then the Police are the same way.

If you as a CCW holder knows the person is carrying a weapon and reaches for that weapon, what would you do? Would you fear for your own life and family if they are present? I know I would. If you wait and see what he will do with the weapon then I may be to late. You just never know. We could what if this all day. I understand the officer are held to a higher standard but when feeling threatend I think they will act the same as a CCW holder. Just my thoughts and .02

I do agree with your statement where you say they fear for their life and family...I think anyone would and thats a fact in my book. After reading all the news articles on this. There is too much "he had the weapon" "he didn't have the weapon", personally, I feel the cops were in the wrong. Thats my opinion from everything I read. However with that being said, I am not one to judge the job of a LEO because I am not one. In any job, there are times where decisions need to be made quick and fast, in this field, sometimes when that happens a life is lost. The camera's will tell the story. If they are wrong then they should pay for what they did. If the CCW holder was in the wrong, he paid for it with his life. My prayers go out to the family of the CCW holder, losing a child is never easy no matter what the circumstance.

 

[GETMRUTN]

I do agree with your statement where you say they fear for their life and family...I think anyone would and thats a fact in my book. After reading all the news articles on this. There is too much "he had the weapon" "he didn't have the weapon", personally, I feel the cops were in the wrong. Thats my opinion from everything I read. However with that being said, I am not one to judge the job of a LEO because I am not one. In any job, there are times where decisions need to be made quick and fast, in this field, sometimes when that happens a life is lost. The camera's will tell the story. If they are wrong then they should pay for what they did. If the CCW holder was in the wrong, he paid for it with his life. My prayers go out to the family of the CCW holder, losing a child is never easy no matter what the circumstance.

I to feel that the officers should pay for their actions if the camera tells the story. When I said the Officers are held to a higher standard, they should wait a little longer to see what exactly what his intentions were. I dont feel he had to pay for it with his life. But once again, the camera doesnt lie. That one piece of evidence will tell the whole story, witnesses or not. If it shows he clearly went for his waistband, then the officers were justified. If not then they should pay for it. with his background he should have know to follow the commands of the officers. I know I would. I would probably even beat them to it. Then deal with it afterwards.

 

[Pewbs]

This is another instance of reality. The reality is that people are alarmed by citizens carrying guns. It doesn't matter how frequently or infrequently they see them, people are always going to be alarmed. The speculation by forum members is irrelevant in determining the acutal scenario because none of us were there. The reality of the situation is that carrying a gun in a place such as costco, with a lot of people milling around, is going to make people uneasy. A person is smart, people are stupid, panicky, and quick to assumptions. I'm not saying it is this individual's fault for exercising his right, I just believe that this situation is a prime example of the dangers of carrying a weapon on a daily basis into a situation where the sight of a loaded gun does more harm than good. IMHO leave the concealed/open carrying for going out at night with your spouse/significant other into a city while grabbing dinner. I mean really, COSTCO?

 

[mrsandman224455]

This is another instance of reality. The reality is that people are alarmed by citizens carrying guns. It doesn't matter how frequently or infrequently they see them, people are always going to be alarmed. The speculation by forum members is irrelevant in determining the acutal scenario because none of us were there. The reality of the situation is that carrying a gun in a place such as costco, with a lot of people milling around, is going to make people uneasy. A person is smart, people are stupid, panicky, and quick to assumptions. I'm not saying it is this individual's fault for exercising his right, I just believe that this situation is a prime example of the dangers of carrying a weapon on a daily basis into a situation where the sight of a loaded gun does more harm than good. IMHO leave the concealed/open carrying for going out at night with your spouse/significant other into a city while grabbing dinner. I mean really, COSTCO?

Things happen anywhere, why don't you go talk to people who are victim of mall shootings, school shootings, office building shootings. So just because its broad daylight means nothing can happen? So your telling me I can only defend my life at night? I would much rather be able to respond back with a weapon if attacked than lay on the floor and pray the shooter doesn't aim at me. Why don't you watch this video and then tell me that only things happen at night. YouTube - Suzanna Gratia Hupp explains meaning of 2nd Amendment!.

Wait...let me guess...its the gun's fault right?

Sheeple....

 

[danfordman]

There have been many outstanding posts in regards to this matter, I am glad I started this thread. If nothing else it reminds of of our responsibilties that go along with our CCW. Again I am not trying to defend the actions of either side just sharing the results of a recent incident that ended unfortunately. My thoughts and prayers go out to the family of the deceased . I am taking in all the input from forum members like a sponge. I know exactly what I would do in this situation and would probablly beat the cops to thier commands. I am going to follow and share this particular incident to the end. My wife and I both have had encounters with LVMPD while carrying and have had no issues with metro, almost like they are pretty used to it. I hope that the guy did'nt have a West Point officer ego, I am retired enlisted and yes I have seen the Egos. My dad was a LEO both military and civilian and believes that it was the CCW holders ego. Thats just his thoughts. I will keep posting as I get the info.
Not related to the incident but direct correlation investigation into gun related calls by LVMPD;
Link Removed

 

[Pewbs]

Things happen anywhere, why don't you go talk to people who are victim of mall shootings, school shootings, office building shootings. So just because its broad daylight means nothing can happen? So your telling me I can only defend my life at night? I would much rather be able to respond back with a weapon if attacked than lay on the floor and pray the shooter doesn't aim at me. Why don't you watch this video and then tell me that only things happen at night. YouTube - Suzanna Gratia Hupp explains meaning of 2nd Amendment!.

Wait...let me guess...its the gun's fault right?

Sheeple....

You are never going to have to use your firearm. Get over it GI JOE

Another erroneous instance. Keep using one instance at a time as an example because if you put all 10 of these incidents in one post you have run out of examples.