Beyond layman's first aid....

[Iteach4U]

I've been working on getting some military and SRT attached medics (Dr's) to put together a Gun-Shot Trauma emergency aid course in SW Mo. It's been going well thus far, but now I've had an experience that has made this a stress item. So I'll pose this for you all to consider as instructors and to those who are not instructors, the life you save just might be someone you know.

Do you have training beyond basic (layman's) first-aid that will give you the ability to handle a GST on the range, even if you're not instructing at that site?

My recent experience was one in a secluded location with a sketchy cell phone signal and would have been difficult for many to find. Fortunately myself and another individual were combat veterans prepared with aid bags to handle a minor GST, which this wound up being. Given the locale it could have been much worse if our gear hadn't been with us.

Consider it folks. Basic first-aid is just that, basic. It's not intended to handle trauma like GST, nor does it train anyone to call in first responders to secluded locations. This is where next-level training comes in to prepare ourselves to get a life-flight blow-out on site, using a purpose built GST kit with quick clot, and knowing how to take the lead while directing others to exactly what you need them to do.

 

[scottbland247]

I haven't gone over te syllabus but red cross and another organization (the name escapes me right now) teach different grades of "wilderness first aid" that is supposed to cover much more serious injuries that I am assuming would cover large punctures and wounds like gunshots

 

[Iteach4U]

Nor have I, but I can check into it as I should be taking a First-Aid/CPR/AED instructor's course next month. That would definitely be a step above the layman's first-aid.

 

[Treo]

You need to be careful, there is a line between "First Aid" and "Practicing Medicine w/out a License". I’ve had to disillusion quite a few “Combat Lifesavers” who were running around Co Springs w/ a bag of Ringer’s Lactate just looking for an opportunity to stick someone. A "layman" really can't go much beyond applying pressure to stop the bleeding and maintaining spinal immobilization w/out getting into the grey area.

Bottom line ABCs, Maintain the airway, stop the bleeding and treat for shock.

 

[Nightmare45]

I was a paramedic for 25 years as a younger man, handled GSW's more than once, no longer a Paramedic, but still have smarts and a well stocked kit and know how to use it. Agree if you are going to be around the range, hunting, fishing or anything else you should be able to provide aid.

 

[Iteach4U]

Excellent point Treo! I don't carry saline in my kit partly for that reason and partly because I don't like needles myself. But having the other tools at your disposal are important as a pressure dressing simply may not get the job done and a tourniquet may not be applicable. Sometimes self-rescue can even come into play and that's where the training and the gear can be most vital.

The knowledge of what to do to handle the GST is sometimes more vital than having the gear. If you have the gear and don't know how to use it then it's useless. If you have the know how, but the gear is unavailable you can improvise if absolutely necessary. Know how + the right gear = survival aid.

Things could have been very different in this recent experience had it been secluded with no signal at all and the bleeding would not stop. Thankfully that wasn't the case. We can preach what-ifs and liabilities all day on the issue, but we all know that if someone has the know how and the willingness to act (or just react) they certainly will do just that.

 

[S&WM&P40]

I've been working on getting some military and SRT attached medics (Dr's) to put together a Gun-Shot Trauma emergency aid course in SW Mo. It's been going well thus far, but now I've had an experience that has made this a stress item. So I'll pose this for you all to consider as instructors and to those who are not instructors, the life you save just might be someone you know.

Do you have training beyond basic (layman's) first-aid that will give you the ability to handle a GST on the range, even if you're not instructing at that site?

My recent experience was one in a secluded location with a sketchy cell phone signal and would have been difficult for many to find. Fortunately myself and another individual were combat veterans prepared with aid bags to handle a minor GST, which this wound up being. Given the locale it could have been much worse if our gear hadn't been with us.

Consider it folks. Basic first-aid is just that, basic. It's not intended to handle trauma like GST, nor does it train anyone to call in first responders to secluded locations. This is where next-level training comes in to prepare ourselves to get a life-flight blow-out on site, using a purpose built GST kit with quick clot, and knowing how to take the lead while directing others to exactly what you need them to do.

I have my own kits that are fully stocked for my own use(treating family.) I have a fully stocked black-hawk stomp medical bag with everything a BLS kit could have including a OB/GYN Kit. I don't really have much along the lines of ALS, I may take a class or two and pick up a ALS kit(again for my use.)I am going to be taking the AED/CPR class,I'm ordering a home AED(again for my use.) I have been signed up to take the Red-Cross first responder class for years but there is never enough people for it. Our state will allow you to take the EMT-B class but will not allow you to test for it(State or Nat Cert) without being on a department of some kind.

I have first aid kits and books up the ass around the house, I learn more from reading and watching training videos. Like how to make a home made flutter valve with a piece of plastic and tape.

First aid is a tricky thing, fine line between helping and killing someone. A lot of scanner buddies out there who have their ears glued to the scanner waiting to rush in. As far as I would go would be to try and stop someone from bleeding out, you start talking about ALS stuff(Inserting airways,IV's etc..) you get into a area you should not be in with out training. All of my gear and training is for me and my family's use.

You also open yourself up to the risk of bloodborne pathogens when you stop and help someone. If you do decide to stop and help someone do not do it unless you have all the right PPE(Personal protective equipment) GEAR.

 

[S&WM&P40]

Excellent point Treo! I don't carry saline in my kit partly for that reason and partly because I don't like needles myself. But having the other tools at your disposal are important as a pressure dressing simply may not get the job done and a tourniquet may not be applicable. Sometimes self-rescue can even come into play and that's where the training and the gear can be most vital.

The knowledge of what to do to handle the GST is sometimes more vital than having the gear. If you have the gear and don't know how to use it then it's useless. If you have the know how, but the gear is unavailable you can improvise if absolutely necessary. Know how + the right gear = survival aid.

Things could have been very different in this recent experience had it been secluded with no signal at all and the bleeding would not stop. Thankfully that wasn't the case. We can preach what-ifs and liabilities all day on the issue, but we all know that if someone has the know how and the willingness to act (or just react) they certainly will do just that.

You can buy saline IV bags, you just can not buy medication IV bags with out a doctors note and or agency cover letter. They sell complete IV kits online(needles) you just have to buy the saline bags.

 

[Treo]

You can buy saline IV bags, you just can not buy medication IV bags with out a doctors note and or agency cover letter. They sell complete IV kits online(needles) you just have to buy the saline bags.

Start an I.V. on someone as a layman and let us know how that works out for you

 

[Bighouse Doc]

Here come the mall ninja medics!

Minimal formal training, simply reading a book or watching Rambo sew himself, and now everyone is a "Field Surgeon."

In most states you risk felony charges for playing Doc without a license. If you have an EMT certificate of some kind, you risk losing it, or worse, for exceeding your legal "Scope of Practice."

If you USED to be a paramedic, and now run around with needles and IV bags, you are on thin ice too! Depending on your state laws, you too can become an instant felon! You might also be charged with some form of "Possession of Drug Paraphrenalia" too!

Of course, once your victims's lawyers get through with you, you will be so poor that life in the "Bighouse" is about right for your budget!

You can't become good at medicine just by reading books and watching videos! It takes much training.

BTW, it isn't "Standard of Care" for trauma anywhere I know of unless it is formal ATLS certification. A FAR CRY from do it yourself "Become a Field Trauma Surgeon" by reading this mall ninja book!

Kill someone with one of those insta-clot dressings find out what kind of hero you aren't!

-Doc

 

[Treo]

Here come the mall ninja medics!

While bighousedoc come across as very arrogant he is absolutely correct. I can’t stress it enough maintain the airway, control the bleeding, treat for shock, maintain spinal immobilization and call EMS.

And bighouse, just because you have license to practice medicine doesn’t mean you always get it right. I'll bet there's some 92W's over in the sandbox that could show you a thing or twp

 

[S&WM&P40]

Here come the mall ninja medics!

Minimal formal training, simply reading a book or watching Rambo sew himself, and now everyone is a "Field Surgeon."

In most states you risk felony charges for playing Doc without a license. If you have an EMT certificate of some kind, you risk losing it, or worse, for exceeding your legal "Scope of Practice."

If you USED to be a paramedic, and now run around with needles and IV bags, you are on thin ice too! Depending on your state laws, you too can become an instant felon! You might also be charged with some form of "Possession of Drug Paraphrenalia" too!

Of course, once your victims's lawyers get through with you, you will be so poor that life in the "Bighouse" is about right for your budget!

You can't become good at medicine just by reading books and watching videos! It takes much training.

BTW, it isn't "Standard of Care" for trauma anywhere I know of unless it is formal ATLS certification. A FAR CRY from do it yourself "Become a Field Trauma Surgeon" by reading this mall ninja book!

Kill someone with one of those insta-clot dressings find out what kind of hero you aren't!

-Doc

Take a valium and chill out.

 

[S&WM&P40]

Start an I.V. on someone as a layman and let us know how that works out for you

WTF are you talking about? I said you can buy them. Sign up and take a IV class and learn how to do it.

 

[Bighouse Doc]

WTF are you talking about? I said you can buy them. Sign up and take a IV class and learn how to do it.

Now why would you buy IV kits and run around with them? Because it looks cool? Impress the ladies with what a mall ninja you are?

What criteria would you use to determine whether to start an IV or not? Would you dump a liter of something into someone only to discover they have CHF? WTF are you talking about doing?

Does your state license you to do this? Are you a trained EMT within your scope of practice? Are you operating under a supervising physicians directions or standing orders?
Just because you were a 92W in Iraq or Afghanistan or Vietnam, Republic of.. You go do that stuff on the streets of Stateside and find out just what kind of trouble you WILL get into when caught!You won't get admiration from the authorities for your jungle medicine skills. If you are lucky, all you will get is sued for everything you own in this life! THe cops will probably think you are a kook and take you for the ride.

Hello everyone! You had better realize if you aren't licensed to provide care beyond Basic First Aid, you are in peril of legal disaster!

-Doc

 

[S&WM&P40]

Now why would you buy IV kits and run around with them? Because it looks cool? Impress the ladies with what a mall ninja you are?

What criteria would you use to determine whether to start an IV or not? Would you dump a liter of something into someone only to discover they have CHF? WTF are you talking about doing?

Does your state license you to do this? Are you a trained EMT within your scope of practice? Are you operating under a supervising physicians directions or standing orders?
Just because you were a 92W in Iraq or Afghanistan or Vietnam, Republic of.. You go do that stuff on the streets of Stateside and find out just what kind of trouble you WILL get into when caught!You won't get admiration from the authorities for your jungle medicine skills. If you are lucky, all you will get is sued for everything you own in this life! THe cops will probably think you are a kook and take you for the ride.

Hello everyone! You had better realize if you aren't licensed to provide care beyond Basic First Aid, you are in peril of legal disaster!

-Doc

LOL,once again someone falls to read a comment before running off at the mouth. I stated they are for my own use, what the hell good does it do to stock pile, food,ammo,gas etc. If you can't take care of your medical needs when the **** hits the fan? We all know how well the EMS system works when a man made/natural disaster hits.

Love how you can pull comments that had never been said out of thin air and claim they have been said, can you do the same thing with lotto numbers?

I never once said I used any of my gear on the street, the only one who even talked about helping/using gear on others was the OP.

What time is the surgery to remove that stick from your ass?

On a side note, what the **** does it matter what I own? Does it affect you? No, ok then STFU. You remind me of those people on youtube who cry and whine if the reviewer did not safety check the firearm on camera. Again wtf does it matter if they do it on camera or not, it does not affect them if he/she shoots themselves? Is the bullet going to come through the camera/computer screen and hit them? No!

 

[S&WM&P40]

Now why would you buy IV kits and run around with them? Because it looks cool? Impress the ladies with what a mall ninja you are?

What criteria would you use to determine whether to start an IV or not? Would you dump a liter of something into someone only to discover they have CHF? WTF are you talking about doing?

Does your state license you to do this? Are you a trained EMT within your scope of practice? Are you operating under a supervising physicians directions or standing orders?
Just because you were a 92W in Iraq or Afghanistan or Vietnam, Republic of.. You go do that stuff on the streets of Stateside and find out just what kind of trouble you WILL get into when caught!You won't get admiration from the authorities for your jungle medicine skills. If you are lucky, all you will get is sued for everything you own in this life! THe cops will probably think you are a kook and take you for the ride.

Hello everyone! You had better realize if you aren't licensed to provide care beyond Basic First Aid, you are in peril of legal disaster!

-Doc

So your saying unless a person is a doctor or EMT, they have no place taking classes and getting medical training for BLS and ALS? Even the so called "basic" first aid kits are now starting to add more ALS gear to the "basic" kits(NPA's and OPA's.)

Hell for that matter all EMT-B's are is basic first aid trained most they can give is an epipen, no airways or other ALS support.

But your a Doctor(or so you claim, nice to claim things on the internet) that has been crowned king of the medical world, so you know best master.

If I was in need of help and a 91W fresh from the sand boxes was around I would be glad to have them help me. 91W's are EMT-B trained+ some. Same goes for a Ex-paramedic.

 

[Treo]

So your saying unless a person is a doctor or EMT, they have no place taking classes and getting medical training for BLS and ALS? Even the so called "basic" first aid kits are now starting to add more ALS gear to the "basic" kits(NPA's and OPA's.)

What's he is saying very clearly I might add is that unless you are licensed by your state and are acting w/in your scope of practice (IOW you can point to something in writing that gives you specific legal aurthority to take such action) if you start an IV on someone regardless of the circumstances you are very likely to go to jail for practicing medicine w/out a license. If you don't go to jail the person upon whom you start the IV is very likely to have his or her lawyers sue you into the poor house. Is that clear enough?

But your a Doctor(or so you claim, nice to claim things on the internet) that has been crowned king of the medical world, so you know best master.

He's a Dr. he's too arrogant to be anything else ( Maybe an F-16 pilot)

If I was in need of help and a 91W fresh from the sand boxes was around I would be glad to have them help me. 91W's are EMT-B trained+ some. Same goes for a Ex-paramedic.

I think it's 92W but it's been years since I got out. It was 91B when I was in. Actually when I went in 91A was a field medic, 91B was a field medic NCO and 91C was a LPN.

LOL,once again someone falls to read a comment before running off at the mouth. I stated they are for my own use, what the hell good does it do to stock pile, food,ammo,gas etc. If you can't take care of your medical needs when the **** hits the fan? We all know how well the EMS system works when a man made/natural disaster hits.

Do you intend to start an IV on yourself?

 

[Treo]

Hello everyone! You had better realize if you aren't licensed to provide care beyond Basic First Aid, you are in peril of legal disaster!
-Doc

Hello everyone! You had better realize if you aren't licensed to provide care beyond Basic First Aid, you are in peril of legal disaster!
-Doc

Hello everyone! You had better realize if you aren't licensed to provide care beyond Basic First Aid, you are in peril of legal disaster!
-Doc

Hello everyone! You had better realize if you aren't licensed to provide care beyond Basic First Aid, you are in peril of legal disaster!
-Doc

Is there some part of the above that you don't understand?

If you don't have real training and a license (or a registry card) you had better not so much as give an asprin
to someone on the street. (the exception would be a suspected heart attack when so directed bt EMS).

I was driving home from Ft. Carson one day and saw a MVA so I stopped and went to see what I could do to help there was some idiot in the back of the car manipulating the drivers neck I stuck my head in the window and said "Hey guy, I'm an EMT and you need to not be moving her head around like that" He loooked at me and said in the most arrogant voice I have ever heard "I am a PA student don't tell me what to do. " I turned around walked back over to my car and left. I haven't stopped for an MVA since

 

[S&WM&P40]

Is there some part of the above that you don't understand?

If you don't have real training and a license (or a registry card) you had better not so much as give an asprin
to someone on the street. (the exception would be a suspected heart attack when so directed bt EMS).

I was driving home from Ft. Carson one day and saw a MVA so I stopped and went to see what I could do to help there was some idiot in the back of the car manipulating the drivers neck I stuck my head in the window and said "Hey guy, I'm an EMT and you need to not be moving her head around like that" He loooked at me and said in the most arrogant voice I have ever heard "I am a PA student don't tell me what to do. " I turned around walked back over to my car and left. I haven't stopped for an MVA since

Again, Point to a place that I stated using IV's and other ALS gear on people on the street? Can't find it because it was never said, As you will see in all of my posts I have stated my gear is for my use and the use of my family. Paging doctor stick in his ass, inserted all the crap about using it on the street and ninja crap.

Kinda hard to give someone aid if your a ninja, their name to fame is stealth(as in never being seen.)

As for starting an IV on myself, if I was going to die from blood loss(or a number of other reasons) then yes I would. Going to die anyways so what do you have to lose? I could always turn around and sue myself later!

You get in a MVA and help is hours away and off duty EMT/EMT-P's drive by but under state law they are under no affirmative duty to rescue. So having the skills to save yourself medically is as important as carrying a firearm and having the skills to use it.

 

[Bighouse Doc]

Hah! Just because you watched Rambo sew himself, you think you could access yourself while going into shock!

Hahhahaha!

MVA? Head injury? Serious hemorrhage? BP dropping, venous return on the wane, tunnel vision setting in and you are gonna really be able to get access to what is at best a difficult vein! ON YOURSELF?

hahahahahaha!

Most EMS providers are going to Intraosseous access because it's very difficult to get veins in those conditions! And you are gonna start a venous access on yourself?

Hahaha!

Thanks for the laugh S&W! I just worked twelve hours and really needed this one!

-Doc