Anti oc'ers just don't get it!

[Bikenut]

Going along the lines of some others here, let me point some things out.

OC is not inherently better than CC.
CC is not inhernetly better than OC.


If you use your power to vote in favor of the 2A, than you are standing up for your rights, no matter how you use them.

Some comments bouncing off your post....

Yes ... voting in favor of the 2nd Amendment is standing up for your rights. Voting to further concealed carry permits is voting against the 2nd Amendment because "permits" are "infringements".

And, if the right to bear arms were respected by government there would not be the infringement of needing the permission (permit) from government to CC.

No matter how folks parse words... a "permit" is the antithesis of a "right". And a vote in favor of "permits" is a vote against "shall not be infringed".

And OC has benefits CC doesn't...

CC has benefits OC doesn't..

However, in my experience with several online forums and in real life, the preponderance of folks who incite arguments about CC vs OC... are not OC'ers.

And sometimes folks think that arguments against the CC permit are also arguments against CC... when CC is just another facet of ... "the right of the people to bear arms" but the abomination of a CC permit is what is meant by "shall not be infringed.".

A very general comment:

What I find discouraging is how many folks actually think a "permit to carry concealed" is the same as "the right to bear arms".

 

[Deserteagle]

Some comments bouncing off your post....

Yes ... voting in favor of the 2nd Amendment is standing up for your rights. Voting to further concealed carry permits is voting against the 2nd Amendment because "permits" are "infringements".

And, if the right to bear arms were respected by government there would not be the infringement of needing the permission (permit) from government to CC.

No matter how folks parse words... a "permit" is the antithesis of a "right". And a vote in favor of "permits" is a vote against "shall not be infringed".

And OC has benefits CC doesn't...

CC has benefits OC doesn't..

However, in my experience with several online forums and in real life, the preponderance of folks who incite arguments about CC vs OC... are not OC'ers.

And sometimes folks think that arguments against the CC permit are also arguments against CC... when CC is just another facet of ... "the right of the people to bear arms" but the abomination of a CC permit is what is meant by "shall not be infringed.".

A very general comment:

What I find discouraging is how many folks actually think a "permit to carry concealed" is the same as "the right to bear arms".

Im curious, do you have a concealed carry permit?

 

[Bikenut]

Im curious, do you have a concealed carry permit?

Of course I do. One of the most misunderstood parts of the CC vs OC silliness is that many of those who OC also have CC permits and CC.

In Michigan the CC permit allows OC in almost all of the Pistol Free Zones where CC is illegal... so with the CC permit I can OC in schools, bars, day care centers, and other places where CC is illegal. It also allows travel without having to lock the unloaded gun in the trunk. It also allows either CC or OC in all the places that are not CC no carry zones but where the mere "possession" of a gun is illegal.

But I do not fool myself into thinking that a "permit" is the "right" to bear arms. And while I, like everyone else, want to stay out of jail so I temporarily suffer under the infringement.... I, unlike some others (no names there... a general comment), do not lobby for nor vote for anything that supports the permit system. Quite the contrary.... I actively work to get anti gun laws repealed because, again unlike some others, I do not believe it is too late to get rid of the permit system in my State... or any other State.

So while I (being a law abiding person) also have the "permit" because I must in order to CC in many places and OC in almost all places and stay out of jail... I know and understand that it isn't the right to bear arms but is a paid for and ass kissed to get permission to have "privilege" that I want to abolish... not support.

Now someone might say that paying for that permit and having that permit is supporting the permit. Yep.. I know... and it chaps my ass to no end to be forced by the government to comply with illegal laws (laws against "shall not be infringed") just to stay out of jail. The fact that I must beg to be "allowed" to exercise a right just chaps my ass to no end. Said chapping is one of the driving forces behind my desire to abolish the permit system entirely.

And I have no illusions about whether CC is better than OC.. or if OC is better than CC. Both methods of carry have their benefits and detriments but both are... the right to bear arms. Yet I understand that it is still the CC "permit" that is needed to CC and stay out of jail that is the "infringement".

Hopefully folks have been paying attention to my postings and realize that my contention isn't with the carry method called "concealed carry" but has been, and is, with the fact that not only do we have to ask Daddy government ... "Can I? Can I pretty please?" but there are those who think that Daddy government's permission to carry is the right to bear arms.

And I have also addressed those who wish to berate, denigrate, insult, and ridicule those who OC by using faulty logic to elevate CC over OC. But please read my posts carefully... as, to the best of my knowledge, even though I have been negative about permits and negative about BS justifications in arguments to elevate CC over OC... I have as yet not been negative about the method of carry called ... CC ... itself.

 

[Deserteagle]

Okay well the reason I asked is to put the common notion to rest that open carriers support the 2A more than concealed carriers, and that concealed carriers are voting in favor of infringements upon our right to bear arms because they go through the permit process.

To add onto this, discussing permits should not be part of discussing OC versus CC because it is evident that both open carriers and concealed carries have permits. So you cannot have a permit and say you are supporting the 2A more than somebody else who has a permit as well just because they use it differently.

I believe this is commonly referred to as "The pot calling the kettle black".

 

[mappow]

OK to add fodder to this quest, I moved from a CC only state ( OC with very limited carry) to a state that allows OC. I've done both in this new state and am comfortable in doing so. My OC is noticed by all whom are alert to eye ball, this includes LEO's as well. Never a problem so far. My wife doesn't care for me to OC but that's my wife. I on the other hand carry OC/CC 99.9% of the time. Sometime, OK most of the times, she doesn't know. So if my wife isn't cognizant of this fact, most on the street aren't either.

Bottom line is CARRY, OC or CC. Am I making a statement OC'ing? Ya damm straight I am, IMHO the more the populace sees a firearm the more comfortable they are with a citizen carrying. (Kinda like the gay thing, the more the media puts out that deviate behavior is OK the more people will accept it or race disparity or income disparity-yadda -yadda -yadda) )Control emotions, control the masses. BUT I DIGRESS

The comfort and ease to be able to OC or CC in the state I live in is and has been just that EASE. AS it should be with the Right to Bear Arms. NOW after all that said and talking about Rights........ The sheriff in the county that you reside is the ONLY one authorized to ALLOW you to buy hand gun. You're allowed 5 per year and the permit is good for 5 years. (Permit is for a single handgun, four other permits must be requested to purchase additional handguns) To add additional insult to injury, ONLY the sheriff can grant you the permission to CC in the State. IF DENIED, there is NO redress allowed per State code. YA get some good with the bad in this State.

 

[Bikenut]

Okay well the reason I asked is to put the common notion to rest that open carriers support the 2A more than concealed carriers, and that concealed carriers are voting in favor of infringements upon our right to bear arms because they go through the permit process.

To add onto this, discussing permits should not be part of discussing OC versus CC because it is evident that both open carriers and concealed carries have permits. So you cannot have a permit and say you are supporting the 2A more than somebody else who has a permit as well just because they use it differently.

I believe this is commonly referred to as "The pot calling the kettle black".

Did I say OC'ers support the 2nd Amendment more than CC'ers? Or did I say that the permit to CC is an infringement? Perhaps you have me confused with a different poster?

And did I say that those who participate in the CC process are voting in favor of infringements? Or did I say that those who ... vote!... in favor of perpetuating and/or strengthening the infringement called permits... are voting against the 2nd Amendment?

Did I say that those who have a permit support the 2nd Amendment less than those who do not? Or did I say that those who vote to support the permit system are voting against the 2nd Amendment?

Did I single out any one group... CC or OC... or even no C... when I said

Yes ... voting in favor of the 2nd Amendment is standing up for your rights. Voting to further concealed carry permits is voting against the 2nd Amendment because "permits" are "infringements".

You see... it isn't the possession of a permit that is key... it is what the person who has the permit supports... especially with his... VOTE.

As for the ... pot and kettle... thing.... Nice try... didn't work... try again.

 

[Bikenut]

Contrary to the false claims of some, these bills would not create federal gun registration or gun owner licensing, nor would they allow any federal agency to establish a federal standard for a carry permit or impose gun control restrictions of any kind.
It is better to have reciprocity and fight to keep the law clean than to not have reciprocity and be restricted in carrying. Anything that frees up the carrying of our guns benefits the 2nd Amendment and pisses of the Brady Campaign and anti-gunners.

[email protected]
Open Carry is the Beautiful Bold Face of the 2nd Amendment

Sigh.... please stop equating the carry permit system with the 2nd Amendment.... the words "permit to carry" do not jive with "the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed". Hence any "permit" has absolutely nothing to do with the "right".

 

[Deserteagle]

Did I say OC'ers support the 2nd Amendment more than CC'ers? Or did I say that the permit to CC is an infringement? Perhaps you have me confused with a different poster?

And did I say that those who participate in the CC process are voting in favor of infringements? Or did I say that those who ... vote!... in favor of perpetuating and/or strengthening the infringement called permits... are voting against the 2nd Amendment?

Did I say that those who have a permit support the 2nd Amendment less than those who do not? Or did I say that those who vote to support the permit system are voting against the 2nd Amendment?

Did I single out any one group... CC or OC... or even no C... when I said



You see... it isn't the possession of a permit that is key... it is what the person who has the permit supports... especially with his... VOTE.

As for the ... pot and kettle... thing.... Nice try... didn't work... try again.

Wow I really struck a nerve with you. Calm down. Lets help you understand English.

My post was directed at the "common notion" that open carriers support the 2A more than concealed carriers. I dont know if you are just imagining that the word "common" means Bikenut because you want attention or what, but if I have a direct comment or challenge for you, I will quote your post and address you specifically.

I addressed a common notion held by many people, not specifically Bikenut. (This post right here is directed at you Bikenut).

 

[Bikenut]

Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
Some comments bouncing off your post....

Yes ... voting in favor of the 2nd Amendment is standing up for your rights. Voting to further concealed carry permits is voting against the 2nd Amendment because "permits" are "infringements".

And, if the right to bear arms were respected by government there would not be the infringement of needing the permission (permit) from government to CC.

No matter how folks parse words... a "permit" is the antithesis of a "right". And a vote in favor of "permits" is a vote against "shall not be infringed".

And OC has benefits CC doesn't...

CC has benefits OC doesn't..

However, in my experience with several online forums and in real life, the preponderance of folks who incite arguments about CC vs OC... are not OC'ers.

And sometimes folks think that arguments against the CC permit are also arguments against CC... when CC is just another facet of ... "the right of the people to bear arms" but the abomination of a CC permit is what is meant by "shall not be infringed.".

A very general comment:

What I find discouraging is how many folks actually think a "permit to carry concealed" is the same as "the right to bear arms".

Im curious, do you have a concealed carry permit?

Of course I do. -snip-

Okay well the reason I asked is to put the common notion to rest that open carriers support the 2A more than concealed carriers, and that concealed carriers are voting in favor of infringements upon our right to bear arms because they go through the permit process.

To add onto this, discussing permits should not be part of discussing OC versus CC because it is evident that both open carriers and concealed carries have permits. So you cannot have a permit and say you are supporting the 2A more than somebody else who has a permit as well just because they use it differently.

I believe this is commonly referred to as "The pot calling the kettle black".

Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
Did I say OC'ers support the 2nd Amendment more than CC'ers? Or did I say that the permit to CC is an infringement? Perhaps you have me confused with a different poster?

And did I say that those who participate in the CC process are voting in favor of infringements? Or did I say that those who ... vote!... in favor of perpetuating and/or strengthening the infringement called permits... are voting against the 2nd Amendment?

Did I say that those who have a permit support the 2nd Amendment less than those who do not? Or did I say that those who vote to support the permit system are voting against the 2nd Amendment?

Did I single out any one group... CC or OC... or even no C... when I said

Originally Posted by Bikenut
Yes ... voting in favor of the 2nd Amendment is standing up for your rights. Voting to further concealed carry permits is voting against the 2nd Amendment because "permits" are "infringements".

You see... it isn't the possession of a permit that is key... it is what the person who has the permit supports... especially with his... VOTE.

As for the ... pot and kettle... thing.... Nice try... didn't work... try again.

Wow I really struck a nerve with you. Calm down. Lets help you understand English.

My post was directed at the "common notion" that open carriers support the 2A more than concealed carriers. I dont know if you are just imagining that the word "common" means Bikenut because you want attention or what, but if I have a direct comment or challenge for you, I will quote your post and address you specifically.

I addressed a common notion held by many people, not specifically Bikenut. (This post right here is directed at you Bikenut).

And since I do understand English and the concept of a "conversation"...... who's nerve got struck?

Now... who has a "common notion" that OC'ers support the 2nd Amendment more than CC'ers? And where did it come from? Are CC'ers as active in fighting for the 2nd Amendment or are CC'ers active in fighting to protect the permit system? How many of each camp are fighting for the 2nd Amendment? How many from each camp are fighting to protect the permit system? How many does it take for it to become a ..... "common notion held by many people"? Is there a survey out there to cite/link to?

Or are you offering your personal opinion? Because if you are offering your personal opinion I will respect that as equally as I respect those who have the opinion that CC'ers spend more time and effort trying to protect the permit system than they do trying to restore the 2nd Amendment.

 

[Deserteagle]

And since I do understand English and the concept of a "conversation"...... who's nerve got struck?

Now... who has a "common notion" that OC'ers support the 2nd Amendment more than CC'ers? And where did it come from? Are CC'ers as active in fighting for the 2nd Amendment or are CC'ers active in fighting to protect the permit system? How many of each camp are fighting for the 2nd Amendment? How many from each camp are fighting to protect the permit system? How many does it take for it to become a ..... "common notion held by many people"? Is there a survey out there to cite/link to?

Or are you offering your personal opinion? Because if you are offering your personal opinion I will respect that as equally as I respect those who have the opinion that CC'ers spend more time and effort trying to protect the permit system than they do trying to restore the 2nd Amendment.

You seem to be blinded by your pro-open carry arguing. Let me provide an example of a claim that open carrying is the way to support the 2A.

Open Carry is the beautiful, bold face of the 2nd Amendment.

This quote goes along with the common notion in many posts here that open carry is how you support the 2nd Amendment. But concealed carrying is not.

 

[Bikenut]

Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
And since I do understand English and the concept of a "conversation"...... who's nerve got struck?

Now... who has a "common notion" that OC'ers support the 2nd Amendment more than CC'ers? And where did it come from? Are CC'ers as active in fighting for the 2nd Amendment or are CC'ers active in fighting to protect the permit system? How many of each camp are fighting for the 2nd Amendment? How many from each camp are fighting to protect the permit system? How many does it take for it to become a ..... "common notion held by many people"? Is there a survey out there to cite/link to?

Or are you offering your personal opinion? Because if you are offering your personal opinion I will respect that as equally as I respect those who have the opinion that CC'ers spend more time and effort trying to protect the permit system than they do trying to restore the 2nd Amendment.

You seem to be blinded by your pro-open carry arguing.

Exactly where did I express a pro open carry argument in my post above? It would appear to me that I asked questions... and I said that I would respect your opinion as equally as I would respect the opinion of those you do not agree with.

I didn't offer any arguments... pro or con.

Let me provide an example of a claim that open carrying is the way to support the 2A.

Originally Posted by IOC View Post
Open Carry is the beautiful, bold face of the 2nd Amendment.

This quote goes along with the common notion in many posts here that open carry is how you support the 2nd Amendment. But concealed carrying is not.

What "you" are you referring to? If we go with it being obvious that you are addressing me one would think that your "you" is in reference to "me". So... who are you referring to with the phrase...

This quote goes along with the common notion in many posts here that open carry is how you support the 2nd Amendment.

Please be specific as to whom you are saying is supporting the 2nd Amendment with the attitude expressed by IOC... other than IOC?

And what "common notion" are you referring to? Can you cite to a reputable source that there is a "common notion"?

Or are you offering your "opinion" as being a "common notion"?

A question for you Sir... just for information... and no, I won't twist your answer in any way...

Do you OC?

 

[IOC]

Sigh.... please stop equating the carry permit system with the 2nd Amendment.... the words "permit to carry" do not jive with "the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed". Hence any "permit" has absolutely nothing to do with the "right".

Sorry, I should have put the "carry permit" statement in quotes. That was copied verbatim from a press release.

 

[Bikenut]

Sorry, I should have put the "carry permit" statement in quotes. That was copied verbatim from a press release.

Understood. Thank you.

However, adding that it is a quote and from where it is quoted along with a link to where it was quoted from helps others to be able to read the entire thing.

Not to mention it also helps folks to understand that it wasn't you who said it.

 

[santa]

The second problem I see is using California as the example of what "anti-OC" people have reaped. The fact is, CA never was an open carry state. If you hung a gun off your belt, it had to be unloaded, and the very existence of that unloaded gun on your belt was seen as implied consent by you to LE to be searched, detained, questioned and otherwise harassed. For all of the good an unloaded firearm would do you, you'd be ahead of the game to carry a brick around in your holster and not give cops the implied consent to harass you. In any case, being forced to only have an unloaded weapon on you is not the same as open "carrying." The words "the right to carry" as it pertains to exercising our 2A rights, at the very least, has to imply the carrying of loaded weapons, or else carrying has no meaningful impact at all as far as furthering our rights. CA's "open carry" status was no less a sham before the new restrictive law than it is now under that law. Open carry never existed in CA to begin with.

Blues

Ok Blues, I have a shocker for you, better sit down, I actually agree with you on something. (temporary insanity?) What you said here about California is 100% correct. An unloaded gun is worthless and I remember being harrassed for having a exposed(unloaded) firearm in my car,and then being told that if there was trouble just to "load that bugger up". Excuse me Mr Mugger, just give me a second or three to load my gun. Several years later I did manage to secure a CCW but grew to believe that it was a poor idea to carry a unloaded gun for self-defence. Whether I OC or CC the gun is loaded. In my opinion while OC is a proven deterrent and I often do OC, unloaded OC is worthless IF THE BGs ALREADY KNOW IT IS NOT LOADED. Of course the BGs and political leaders know this.

 

[IOC]

The hook on this thread was "anti-OCers" or those who oppose Open Carry. The point of the post was that all who carry should support all who carry, OC or CC. Where it is legal to OC, if it is not practiced, it will be lost.
Idaho Open Carry's motto is "Open Carry is the Bold Beautiful Face of the 2nd Amendment". It does not mean, as stated earlier in this thread, that it is "THE" only way to support the 2nd Amendment. The motto says that
OC it's "Bold Beautiful Face". "Bold" because it does take nerve to do it, and "Beautiful Face" because it is the visible representation of our 2nd Amendment. OC is the first line of defense against the anti-gun groups in the states
where it is legal and the first casualty when the anti-gun groups succeed. We are OCing to “naturalize the presence of guns, which means that guns become ordinary, omnipresent, and expected. Over time, the gun becomes a symbol of ordinary personhood.”

It will be lost in states where it is not practiced openly and regularly and then the anti's will chip away at CC by adding onerous restrictions and requirements.

 

[Deserteagle]

What "you" are you referring to? If we go with it being obvious that you are addressing me one would think that your "you" is in reference to "me". So... who are you referring to with the phrase...



Please be specific as to whom you are saying is supporting the 2nd Amendment with the attitude expressed by IOC... other than IOC?

And what "common notion" are you referring to? Can you cite to a reputable source that there is a "common notion"?

Or are you offering your "opinion" as being a "common notion"?

A question for you Sir... just for information... and no, I won't twist your answer in any way...

Do you OC?

Such a lost cause... I give up, hopefully the other members understand.

I open carry much less than I conceal carry to answer your question.

 

[jg1967]

Actually a person can never really "lose" a right simply because we are born owning rights just by being... born. However, it is possible, (and has already happened to a great degree) for a person to lose the ability to exercise a right due to "infringements" of control placed upon actually exercising the right.

Such as...

No one ever loses the right to carry an "arm" in a concealed manner. We are born with the right to carry "arms" in any manner we wish. The infringement is the government assuming control of who, where, when, and why, a person is "allowed" to exercise the right... and punishing anyone who actually exercises the right to carry an "arm" in a concealed manner without the permission of the government. It is the "permission" embodied in a "permit" that is the infringement.

However if a person cannot exercise the right without permission then they have "lost the ability to exercise the right" to the control of whoever gives or denys "permission". And, just from a practical standpoint, if it is impossible to exercise the right then the right has been "lost" because even if you have it you can't use it anyway.

Infringement - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

in·fringe·ment
noun \in-ˈfrinj-mənt\
Definition of INFRINGEMENT
1
: the act of infringing : violation
2
: an encroachment or trespass on a right or privilege
Examples of INFRINGEMENT

<any government action limiting freedom of speech is an infringement of the U.S. Constitution>


Some... ummm... light? reading...

Link Removed

Link Removed

I find it highly ironic that the only right mentioned in the constitution (plus amendmends) that has an explicit statement added that it may not even be INFRINGED on - as opposed to blatantly denied - is the one that is probably the one the most infringed on of them all.

 

[mappow]

I find it highly ironic that the only right mentioned in the constitution (plus amendmends) that has an explicit statement added that it may not even be INFRINGED on - as opposed to blatantly denied - is the one that is probably the one the most infringed on of them all.

Knarren und Zigarren

Ratchets and cigar ??????

 

[Bikenut]

Such a lost cause... I give up, hopefully the other members understand.

I open carry much less than I conceal carry to answer your question.

Did you answer the question? Or did you give an answer that is misleading since a person who always CC's but never OC's surely does OC much less than they CC.

So... do you OC?

I really don't care either way... what I do care about is that communicating over the 'net is hard enough but becomes even harder when folks "assume" others will automatically understand what they mean even though the wording used is ambiguous.

Which is why I asked you all the questions I asked... hoping you would offer factual statements instead of expecting me to just "assume" I understood what you meant.

 

[Deserteagle]

Did you answer the question? Or did you give an answer that is misleading since a person who always CC's but never OC's surely does OC much less than they CC.

So... do you OC?

I really don't care either way... what I do care about is that communicating over the 'net is hard enough but becomes even harder when folks "assume" others will automatically understand what they mean even though the wording used is ambiguous.

Which is why I asked you all the questions I asked... hoping you would offer factual statements instead of expecting me to just "assume" I understood what you meant.

You are so helpless. Lets look at what I said:

I open carry much less than I conceal carry.

You are wrong in thinking this can mean I only CC. Saying I do something much less than something else means that I still do it to some amount. If I said I vote democrat much less than I vote republican, it implies I do vote democrat at times. If I wanted to say I only CC, than I would say "I only carry concealed".

Lets put some numbers in here for you, maybe it will help you understand.
Most of the time (90%) I carry concealed, and I therefore open carry much less often (10%). If I said I only conceal carry, that would be 100% and open carry would be 0%. But guess what? I didn't say one or the other, I said both.

Lets say there are 30 days in a month, if I open carry much less than I carry concealed, it might look something like this: Open carry 5 days, carry concealed 25 days.