Am I justified

[Wingnut01]

The only person who can tell you if you're justified is a judge or jury. Hopefully you'll never have that problem. A lawyer will help you argue your point.

I am ACT235 certified and an ACT235 certified firearms instructor. I'll tell you what I tell everyone. Unless you are ACT235 certified DON"T carry while working security.

Lethal Weapons Training Program

CHAPTER 21. ADMINISTRATION OF THE LETHAL WEAPONS TRAINING PROGRAM
Pennsylvania Code

 

[maybejim]

Regarding GZ, lets not forget that he was a bit rash himself, which got him into more trouble than he ever dreamed.

Whether he ended up getting ambushed by the kid, or whether he stalked and confronted the kid, either way, he had no backup, and he was in way deep over his head.

The disadvantage of CCW is that you cannot draw very fast, and your assailant cannot see the weapon therefore it does not serve to deter him. With OC you can draw faster, and with the assailant seeing the gun he is sometimes deterred. That's the problem with the CCW laws that require you to keep the weapon concealed at all times.

In GZ's case I would have drawn my CCW weapon the second I saw him approaching, if that's what really happened, to avoid getting pommelled and the risk of being beaten to death first and having the gun wrestled away.

If you drew your gun the second you saw him approaching, you would have been guilty of illegal branishing.

Caveat -- we don't know what really happened in the GZ case and we may never know.

You are right but so far the evidence that has been released has supported Zimmerman's story.

Also, there is no evidence Zimmerman was doing anything other than being a good neighbor.

 

[Nicholas A.]

Just wondering with being security do you carry a asp style baton or a pr-24 or oc spray?I only ask because at least in maryland which is a bad state gun law wise but point is unarmed security is not allowed to carry a firearm while on duty, sane with when I did security in VA. Now if you do carry a baton or a mag light or the like I would have suggested using that. Before I got my license to carry a baton and oc spray I carried a 3 cell mag light and a set of cuffs so even while being within the law I had a couple things I could use if something had happened

 

[JCliff]

I would advise you don't take any advice from anyone on this forum who tells you to use your gun. Take a law class. Maybe get an opinion from an attorney. The only advice I can give you is that you don't use your gun unless the threat is so dire that you're willing to ruin your life. Just ask GZ.

BC1's advice here is excellent. As you work your way through most state laws, you'll find that deadly force could be justified to prevent another person's murder or maiming. But the legal ground you stand on is difficult territory, much more so than when you defend yourself. There is so much you don't know. What happened before you arrived on the scene? How do you know the guy getting the crap kicked out of him didn't just try and rape some girl? There are so many things you could potentially get wrong. And you will pay dearly if you do. Even if all goes well in a truly justified, righteous shooting, you will almost certainly be arrested, could very likely face criminal charges at trial, and when acquitted face civil liability afterwards. Your life, at the very least, will very likely be turned upside-down for an extended period of time. If all does not go completely well, your life could be in ruins (maybe you're in jail).

As a security professional, you should not carry unless you have been certified and unless it is in accordance with your employer's terms. Without that, if you are involved in any kind of incident regarding your firearm, your employer will fire you and disavow you faster than you can blink. There could be criminal or civil penalties here as well.

 

[Wingnut01]

If you drew your gun the second you saw him approaching, you would have been guilty of illegal branishing.




You are right but so far the evidence that has been released has supported Zimmerman's story.

Also, there is no evidence Zimmerman was doing anything other than being a good neighbor.

In Pennsylvania there is no statute for brandishing. Brandishing doesn't appear anywhere in the crimes codes.

 

[Itstjs]

I work as an Armed Security Officer, in most cases, we urge our Unarmed S/Os to carry defensive pepper spray, if theyre Concealed Carriers, as long as we dont see it, we dont care really. I would have urged you guys to get the best description, film the incident, and help in any way possible without putting your own life at risk, if the 5 man Mob would have turned on you and your partner, thats a different story, carried by 6 or judged by 12? Im sure you wouldnt have a job anymore and may face a civil law suit.
In any case, stay on an OPEN line with local PD, and later consult with your own supervisors as well as your attorneys. Sadly as an unarmed guard, your roll as I am sure you know is observe and report, if your company is asking you to do any more than that, I would look for a new job.

 

[BHG1978]

I'm currently working on my act 235 here in pa but I work as a unarmed security guard, last night a couple guys ganged up on a guy and made it hard for the security team to stop the group from jumping the guy and still keep our team safe. I am a concealed carrier and keep my pistol on me at all times do you guys think I would have been justified in saving this guy from the beating he received. It was a 5 on 1 situation

unarmed security guard (if in a uniform) is supposed to be a visible and verbal deterrent and if that doesn't work, you observe and report eyes ears, going beyond that , you will end up in a court room. Think of yourself as one of those yippy dogs that sees something and barks barks barks, alerts everybody but won't bite.

 

[BC1]

Regarding GZ, lets not forget that he was a bit rash himself, which got him into more trouble than he ever dreamed.

Whether he ended up getting ambushed by the kid, or whether he stalked and confronted the kid, either way, he had no backup, and he was in way deep over his head.

The disadvantage of CCW is that you cannot draw very fast, and your assailant cannot see the weapon therefore it does not serve to deter him. With OC you can draw faster, and with the assailant seeing the gun he is sometimes deterred. That's the problem with the CCW laws that require you to keep the weapon concealed at all times.

In GZ's case I would have drawn my CCW weapon the second I saw him approaching, if that's what really happened, to avoid getting pommelled and the risk of being beaten to death first and having the gun wrestled away.

Caveat -- we don't know what really happened in the GZ case and we may never know.

But I agree, that GZ got himself in way over his head, trying to play cop when he is no cop. Ergo playing cop is not a good idea. Ever.

I'm not open-carrying under any circumstances.

 

[BC1]

In Pennsylvania there is no statute for brandishing. Brandishing doesn't appear anywhere in the crimes codes.

What about menacing? Some states chaarge menacing if someone shows a gun as a deterrent. Not to be confused with printing.

 

[golocx4]

I believe that wingnut01 and several others have supplied you with enough info to answer your question.
Remember: Police Officers, of which I used to be one, are armed to protect themselves and to save the life of civilians when there appears to be no other alternative. When a LE has to use his or her weapon, the scrutiny triggered to prove justification kicks in. There are always two sides and it is not uncommon that both sides are not pleased with the final decision.
I am only assuming that when you became a Security Guard you had to complete some form of training. Your training should have covered general guidelines to this type of situation or whether or not you should even be CCW on the job. Check your notes.
Back when I was on the job Officer Needs Help calls meant everybody goes code 3 . (It was called Officer in Need of Aid back then). We also used Security Guard in Need of Aid, which we also treated as everyone went code 3. I have no idea in today's politically correct society if they still do that or not.

 

[tattedupboy]

You probably would have been justified. Just don't expect your employer to be as understanding about it as the police.

 

[Wingnut01]

What about menacing? Some states chaarge menacing if someone shows a gun as a deterrent. Not to be confused with printing.

Crimes And Offenses - 18 Pa. Cons. Stat.
Chapter § 27 Assault
(3) Attempting by physical menace to put another person in fear or imminent serious bodily injury;

Chapter 27 - Title 18 - CRIMES AND OFFENSES

 

[maybejim]

In Pennsylvania there is no statute for brandishing. Brandishing doesn't appear anywhere in the crimes codes.

In Kalifornia, there is a brandishing statute and I'm pretty sure Florida has one as well.

 

[SGB]

"In Kalifornia, there is a brandishing statute and I'm pretty sure Florida has one as well."

We have a statute concerning "[SIZE=-1]Improper exhibition of dangerous weapons or firearms.[/SIZE]" however "brandishing" isn't anywhere in the Florida statute. "Brandishing" is a very loose description of an act not necessarily illegal and used fast and loose on gun boards.

 

[Brotherhood of Arms 2012#]

I appreciate all of the information and things u got from you guys that's what I hope this site continues to do

 

[maybejim]

We have a statute concerning "[SIZE=-1]Improper exhibition of dangerous weapons or firearms.[/SIZE]" however "brandishing" isn't anywhere in the Florida statute. "Brandishing" is a very loose description of an act not necessarily illegal and used fast and loose on gun boards.

In other words a distinction without a difference. What was described I have no doubt would fall under "Improper exhibition of dangerous weapons or firearms" something we peons often call brandishing.

 

[maybejim]

What about menacing? Some states chaarge menacing if someone shows a gun as a deterrent. Not to be confused with printing.

How the particular state may define it in their "legalize" all comes to about the same thing. Branishing, menacing, Improper exhibition of a weapon all pretty much mean the same thing. Generally it is illegal to present your weapon if you or someone else have not been legitimately threatened with severe bodily harm. If someone has been threatened, it is not illegal to present your weapon. The circumstances are going to pretty well be the same for presenting the weapon as they are for actually shooting someone. In other words you do not present your weapon unless the circumstances are such that you can legally use that weapon.

In the original question it was further complicated by the questioner being a licensed unarmed security guard. He needs to seek his state's regulations on unarmed security guards but I would guess he would be pretty well screwed if he presented his weapon. A jury might or might not let him off of a shooting but it would add to going against him.

 

[Treo]

I suspect that when our friend didn't get a plethora of posts telling him what a hero he'd be he lost interest

 

[SGB]

In other words a distinction without a difference. What was described I have no doubt would fall under "Improper exhibition of dangerous weapons or firearms" something we peons often call brandishing.

It must not be thought in school anymore but "words" have "meanings". Kill and Murder both denote a homicide, however they have the "DISTINCTION" of different meanings. "Brandishing" does not exist in the Florida statutes and you only have yourself to blame for being a self professed peon.

 

[maybejim]

It must not be thought in school anymore but "words" have "meanings". Kill and Murder both denote a homicide, however they have the "DISTINCTION" of different meanings. "Brandishing" does not exist in the Florida statutes and you only have yourself to blame for being a self professed peon.

Then maybe you will enlighten us with your sophistication and explain the difference between Brandishing as used in many states and improper exhibition of a weapon. I look forward to the edification.