A Positive Encounter with a Young Arizona State Trooper

[Riverkilt]

So early this year a main road south of town collapsed and the State paved on old dirt road across the Navajo reservation that gets folks in and out of town. Speed limits have been real slow due to construction and lack of right-of-way fencing had cattle and horses on the road. All that's done now and they put the speed limit at 55mph. Other road was 65mph. Anyway, today I'm coming home from out of town and anxious to get to an appointment and crept up to 65mph. Came over the hill to a Trooper going the other way. He hit his lights and I just pulled over and waited for his U turn.

Being a former LEO I wanna make this easy so I'm nice, greet him politely, and hand him my driver's license and concealed carry card. He looks at the later and asks what's on board. Tell him a NAA mini .22 revolver, a Sig 938, a Sig P226 Navy, and a brand new Sig 1911 Ultra-compact that I bought yesterday. (Yes it sounds like the "I ain't afraid of anything" joke). Turns out he loves Sigs too and we had a long chat about the various merits of Sig vs. other brands.

He had me cold and figured on a ticket, but came away with a warning.

Weird thing is the P226 Navy was holstered and laying in the passenger seat where he could see it clearly from his position outside the passenger door.

After watching all the You Tubes where they tell you how to deal with traffic stops or some young guy gets oppositional at a traffic stop, this one was enjoyable. Gotta love the officer's positive attitude.

 

[wolf_fire]

Are you saying you "wanna make this easy" so you informed him you are carrying, or you "wanna make this easy" so you told him you had a permit with a gun holstered on the front seat, or you "wanna make this easy" so you handed him a permit in a state that doesn't even require them.

I am confused as to why you handed the LEO your concealed weapon's permit at all. This doesn't compute into my idea of wanting to make things go "easy".

I'll concede that being nice and polite is a good start to making things go "easy", but what does bringing up your firearms during a routine traffic stop have anything to do about making anything "easy". You were fortunate and had an experience with a pleasant trooper. However, you could have had a badge hungry jack booted thug who felt it was necessary to disarm you during this stop since, in AZ, the police are given that authority to do so when they are informed that someone is carrying during a detainment.

I'm glad you had a pleasant experience, but I would never bring up something that has nothing to do with the reason I'm being stopped. Because things could get real "uneasy" after that. They could disarm you (extra handling of handguns is never a way to make things easy), they could try to unload the weapon (more handling), if they don't know how to unload the weapon they could damage it (definitely not an easy way to go), they could point their weapon at you to ask you to step out of the vehicle to disarm you (sound easy to you), or they could just mistreat your handgun while being detained for what,.... speeding? This does not sound like the "easy" way to go.

Granted, he would have seen, if he was the least bit good at his job, the firearm on the front seat. But why offer him everything? If he inquires, then tell him. In AZ, the permit is rather meaningless and you just opened Pandora's box.

 

[croute]

Riverkilt had a gun sitting on the seat in view of the LEO. Hmmmm... I think letting the officer know you have a permit for the thing might be a little tidbit you want to offer. Just because you don't have to disclose information doesn't mean there is never a time where you should. I guess you'd rather have the LEO freak out and draw on you instead. I guess it would be a lot more fun that way.

 

[Johnny Dollar]

Riverkilt had a gun sitting on the seat in view of the LEO. Hmmmm... I think letting the officer know you have a permit for the thing might be a little tidbit you want to offer. Just because you don't have to disclose information doesn't mean there is never a time where you should. I guess you'd rather have the LEO freak out and draw on you instead. I guess it would be a lot more fun that way.

That almost makes sense, actually it would make sense anywhere but Arizona because you don't have to have a concealed carry permit there.

I'm required to inform by law but I've never actually had to do it

 

[croute]

Ah, I didn't know that. I need to move to AZ.

 

[Captian Carry]

In New Mexico. A vehicle is a extension of your home. So you can have all kinds of firearms in your car. I have dealt with police with a pistol, a rifle and a shotgun all in plain sight. Here, as well in Arizona it's really no big deal. I also lived in Arizona before they became a Constitution carry state. Typically they ask me what kind of guns are they, more out of curiosity then any thing else. Once a NM State trouper asked about my XD-357 SIG. I told him what it was, he said good round that is what we carry. (They don't anymore they went back to 9mm). Now if you were California that may have ended differently.

 

[Johnny Dollar]

Ah, I didn't know that. I need to move to AZ.

I've considered it but my family has lived here since the early 1800s

 

[Riverkilt]

Jeez Louise...."easier" because I was a LEO myself and get it...come from an LEO family of generations...wanna make it easier because I've been in his shoes and respect the risk he's taking every time he walks up to a car.

Of course you don't need a permit to conceal in Arizona - but you CAN still get one if you want one. Since I live close to the Four Corners area and am often in Utah, Colorado, and New Mexico (yes I know the deal with Nevada now) I have a permit and its sure handy over the line. In fact, I went ahead and got it just when they announced you don't need one.

Is there anything one can post on this forum without being jumped as being stupid and wrong? It was a nice encounter considering I had four guns on board and three of them were loaded and within my reach.

 

[dstryr]

Jeez Louise....

Is there anything one can post on this forum without being jumped as being stupid and wrong?

I agree, you'd think the effort would be put to better use educating and converting non-2Aers, and not spent being running down members here.

Big picture, it feeds the ego of a small number of LEO with the "I am the law" mentality who may intimidate or clearly abuse authority when dealing with the public. Spend the energy reigning in that problem, put a stop to qualified immunity, and get it into people's heads that authority is granted by the people, not the mayor, not the chief of police, and certainly not the commander in chief of our armed forces.

 

[wolf_fire]

Riverkilt had a gun sitting on the seat in view of the LEO. Hmmmm... I think letting the officer know you have a permit for the thing might be a little tidbit you want to offer. Just because you don't have to disclose information doesn't mean there is never a time where you should. I guess you'd rather have the LEO freak out and draw on you instead. I guess it would be a lot more fun that way.

In AZ no one needs a permit, therefore, the permit itself is a meaningless gesture.

 

[wolf_fire]

Jeez Louise...."easier" because I was a LEO myself and get it...come from an LEO family of generations...wanna make it easier because I've been in his shoes and respect the risk he's taking every time he walks up to a car.

Of course you don't need a permit to conceal in Arizona - but you CAN still get one if you want one. Since I live close to the Four Corners area and am often in Utah, Colorado, and New Mexico (yes I know the deal with Nevada now) I have a permit and its sure handy over the line. In fact, I went ahead and got it just when they announced you don't need one.

Is there anything one can post on this forum without being jumped as being stupid and wrong? It was a nice encounter considering I had four guns on board and three of them were loaded and within my reach.

No one is trying to "jump you". We share a completely different opinion. Just as I did not agree with yours (nor did I make it personal), you have the same prerogative to not agree with mine. In the same vein would it have been an equally nice gesture to tell him about every lethal weapon you had in the car? Would you tell him about your pocket knife? Would you tell him about the tire iron? Would you tell them about the soft ball bat? Would you tell them about your flares? For some reason, firearms have a special aura about them that some LEO's feel they should always know about everyone else's. They don't have that right for a simple traffic stop. The detainment was for speeding. It had nothing to do with firearms.

The point we are making is that there are some bad LEO's out there. We never know which one we are going to get. Disclosing everything is not an "easy" way to go when you have one of the bad LEO's at your door. One never knows which LEO they will encounter, so one should always be cautious and give up little.

And don't assume everyone else that responded isn't LE. There are some LEO's who get that the citizenry has rights, and that the 4th and 5th are just as sacred as the 2nd.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Riverkilt had a gun sitting on the seat in view of the LEO.

So, then, why was this post in the CONCEALED carry forum? I think that is what triggered some of the comments. When Riverkilt posted this in the concealed carry forum:

Being a former LEO I wanna make this easy so I'm nice, greet him politely, and hand him my driver's license and concealed carry card.

Since this was posted in the concealed carry forum, I think some people took Riverkilt's post as saying he wanted to "make it easy" by showing a concealed carry card and informing about a concealed firearm. In this situation, one firearm was in plain view on the passenger seat, which is a slightly different situation. Now to say it "makes it easy" to show a concealed carry permit/license and inform the LEO of a firearm that is concealed to begin with, to me personally makes no sense. I don't see how inserting something additional into the situation that has no relevancy to the situation (when not required to by law) makes it easier - seems like it would only make it more complicated to me.

I have had far too many 100% polite, professional and positive traffic stop encounters with LEOs in the past - and in none of them was my CPL or any firearm in my lawful possession mentioned by either the LEO or myself.

 

[telpinaro]

In AZ no one needs a permit, therefore, the permit itself is a meaningless gesture.

It does come in handy for out-of-state reciprocity, though! I actually have an AZ non-resident permit to add a few states I wouldn't be able to go to otherwise... When we travel if we have the time we drive, so the more states I can cover, the better.

 

[wolf_fire]

In AZ no one needs a permit, therefore, the permit itself is a meaningless gesture.

It does come in handy for out-of-state reciprocity, though! I actually have an AZ non-resident permit to add a few states I wouldn't be able to go to otherwise... When we travel if we have the time we drive, so the more states I can cover, the better.

Yes, but this situation is about an AZ resident stopped by an AZ trooper... in that sense, the permit is a meaningless gesture if you've already shown your driver's license.

 

[Riverkilt]

Lordy lordy lordy....we sure do have VERY different points of view. I'm a former LEO from a generations of LEO family who "Supports my Local Police."

One pistol was out in plain view and in reach. A mini revolver and another pistol were concealed within reach. One pistol was unloaded, packaged out of reach.

I've stated I live on the Arizona boarder near four corners and am often out of state - MY reason to CHOOSE to get an Arizona permit AFTER the law changed to no permit needed.

I guess I'm just cursed with empathy for the young cop doing his job. If I were a young cop walking up to a car where there were four firearms on board, and three were loaded and within reach I'd sure like to know that and get that situation dealt with - which was done in a most genial manner by the officer.

Ain't no one gonna change anyone's mind here. I'm still gonna hand over my concealed carry card with my driver's license. You still aren't. We'll both experience the consequences of either being open and friendly or concealing the already concealed.

 

[NavyLCDR]

We'll both experience the consequences of either being open and friendly or concealing the already concealed.

Why does it have to be one or the other? In my multiple past traffic stops while carrying a firearm I have been BOTH open and friendly AND kept concealed what was already concealed (my CPL and firearm). Again, why does it have to be one or the other? Why am I less open and friendly because I choose to not tell the officer about an object in my legal possession that poses no danger to the officer while in my possession and has no bearing on the traffic stop? Am I not being open and friendly if I don't tell him about my cell phone?

 

[BluesStringer]

Ain't no one gonna change anyone's mind here. I'm still gonna hand over my concealed carry card with my driver's license. You still aren't. We'll both experience the consequences of either being open and friendly or concealing the already concealed.

As a former LEO, you will never be treated the same way as those of us who can't claim that status have the potential to be treated at every LE encounter we have, even if we were to follow your "formula" to the letter. It is telling that you mention having "empathy" for LEO's, partly because of your own personal work history, and also because of your "generations of LEO family" who were likewise in LE. Your generations-long indoctrination as a law enforcement badge polisher would explain your lack of empathy for the law-abiding citizen who might suffer what you yourself refer to as the "consequences" of non-disclosure about concealed weapons when no such disclosure is mandated, even if you had never joined any force. You are forever spoiled from even having the capacity to empathize with a lowly citizen. It has been so-inculcated within you literally since birth. It also puts you squarely at odds with the premise of you being a supporter of civil rights in general, or 2A rights in specific. LE agencies routinely write and implement policy intended to get around the limits put on them by our rights. In both word and and the deeds you describe in posts such as these, you subscribe to those types of policies in rote manner.

But then, you've also proudly proclaimed your status as a leftist many times on this site. That too, puts you squarely at odds with the premise of you being a supporter of civil rights in general, or 2A rights in specific. You also flirt with eugenicist "ideals." There are several valid and good reasons why most around here should view your views with contempt, but speaking only for myself, I most certainly do.

Blues

 

[wolf_fire]

Lordy lordy lordy....we sure do have VERY different points of view. I'm a former LEO from a generations of LEO family who "Supports my Local Police."

One pistol was out in plain view and in reach. A mini revolver and another pistol were concealed within reach. One pistol was unloaded, packaged out of reach.

I've stated I live on the Arizona boarder near four corners and am often out of state - MY reason to CHOOSE to get an Arizona permit AFTER the law changed to no permit needed.

I guess I'm just cursed with empathy for the young cop doing his job. If I were a young cop walking up to a car where there were four firearms on board, and three were loaded and within reach I'd sure like to know that and get that situation dealt with - which was done in a most genial manner by the officer.

Ain't no one gonna change anyone's mind here. I'm still gonna hand over my concealed carry card with my driver's license. You still aren't. We'll both experience the consequences of either being open and friendly or concealing the already concealed.

Again, I have no idea why you keep bringing up that you are a LEO and that your family has many LEO's within it. Nor do I get why it is important in this conversation to bring up that you "Support [your] Local Police".

If a LEO walks by you and you have firearms, should you admit it to him? Or is this giving up of your rights only for detainment purposes? What situation is being "dealt with" when you mention that? A citizen who is legally carrying in a state in which there is no need for a permit is not a situation. This is the mentality that many on this forum have a problem with. Too many LEO's think that if someone is carrying and they begin talking with them (mere encounter), or detain them, then they must know about every firearm. They disregard the tire iron, the baseball bat, the flares, the pocket knife, etc. But, oh no, the big bad firearm which is possessed legally is the magic talisman that makes LEO's have to "deal" with a situation that isn't even a situation.

If it's a courtesy thing, then I ask if you tell the convenience store clerk, the tax cab driver, the McDonald's counter person, etc. that you are carrying too? If not, then why is this courtesy only reserved for LEO's? Wouldn't it make the interaction between others that are not LEO's "safer" and "easier" as well? Since you are a LEO, this is an extremely valid question. It would be enlightening to know why the LEO should know about these things, but not other people that you come in contact with.

 

[BluesStringer]

Again, I have no idea why you keep bringing up that you are a LEO and that your family has many LEO's within it. Nor do I get why it is important in this conversation to bring up that you "Support [your] Local Police".

If a LEO walks by you and you have firearms, should you admit it to him? Or is this giving up of your rights only for detainment purposes? What situation is being "dealt with" when you mention that? A citizen who is legally carrying in a state in which there is no need for a permit is not a situation. This is the mentality that many on this forum have a problem with. Too many LEO's think that if someone is carrying and they begin talking with them (mere encounter), or detain them, then they must know about every firearm. They disregard the tire iron, the baseball bat, the flares, the pocket knife, etc. But, oh no, the big bad firearm which is possessed legally is the magic talisman that makes LEO's have to "deal" with a situation that isn't even a situation.

If it's a courtesy thing, then I ask if you tell the convenience store clerk, the tax cab driver, the McDonald's counter person, etc. that you are carrying too? If not, then why is this courtesy only reserved for LEO's? Wouldn't it make the interaction between others that are not LEO's "safer" and "easier" as well? Since you are a LEO, this is an extremely valid question. It would be enlightening to know why the LEO should know about these things, but not other people that you come in contact with.

Three word answer: He's a leftist.

 

[Riverkilt]

Attack!! Damn right I'm a proud liberal democrat AND I support the second amendment... Yes I'm a former LEO from generations of LEO service in my family...but I never mention it to the officers...never...because their response would be, "Then you should know better" and a ticket is insured. I advise of my concealed out of respect and courtesy and EMPATHY....