What Happens to Us When We Die?

[BC1]

This is the hurdle I cannot get over, and is where I have the most trouble in "believing". I, like you, am a good and decent person. I don't steal, lie, or cheat. I treat my wife with respect, and have been completely faithful, and have taken good care of her for the last 31 years. And I will continue to do so until I draw my last breath on this Earth. I have never been a burden to others, and treat my dog better than many people treat their children. Yet, in spite of all that, if I die lacking the "belief" I don't have, I will burn in hell for all eternity.

.

On the other hand, if Charles Manson honestly "found God", and truly and honestly "believed" and confessed all of his past sins, as he drew his last breath he would walk right into the Pearly Gates with everyone there with open arms to greet him. That I simply cannot accept, as it is ridiculous, and makes zero sense. As you said, that kind of "God", if he does exist, is both vengeful and cruel.

I would have to agree with you on this. A certain pedophile/murderer who I know found God in prison. When he was released he started planning overnight camping trips for little boys through a baptist church. Was he reformed or setting-up more victims under the guise of finding religion (which I didn't know was lost)? I believe he was setting-up more victims. So I decided as a twice-convicted pedophile/murderer that the church and public should be notified. After they learned about him from me the church was split. Most wanted him nowhere near them or their kids but some said they forgave him. I asked them, "what have you forgiven him for? He didn't murder your little boy?" He left that church and found another. I notified the pastor at that church who said he didn't care, all are welcome. Same problem began at that church... people don't want him near their family. He threatened to sue if I didn't stop so I distributed 10,000 flyers through the county. Still waiting (and hoping) to be served with his suit.

 

[billt]

I think many people use religion as a device to "get to" others. There are a lot of sex scandals that evolve from churches. And I'm not talking about pedophile priests. Many pastors have become involved with married women who "look up to them". They then take advantage. I even saw a case on TV's "Forensic Files" where it led to murder. As they say, who knows what's in a mans heart........ Or mind. Religion, much like a gun, can be a very manipulative tool when used incorrectly.

 

[Oldgrunt]

Being a Christian does not, in itself, stop one from having the same thoughts concerning people like Charles Manson or any other criminal. We all hate the sinner and would like to see him burn in the lowest depths of hell. That is human nature and we all share that same thought. The idea of someone like him receiving forgiveness is repugnant to us but, and this is one great big but, we have to forgive him in order to have our own sins forgiven. That is why Jesus came to earth, "..that the world through Him might be saved." BC1 lost a child and you can see in his posts that it still eats at him after several years. He knows he has to forgive him, however difficult it may be, but he doesn't have to sit around and let the BG do it again. He takes action to prevent harm from befalling some other child. The lack of forgiveness comes from our human side and, as difficult as it may be, we have to overcome it. It won't be easy but it can be done. Vengeance is the right of the Lord and He says He will recompense. That is not being cruel. We have all been given the free will to choose. WE determine what will happen to us in the future. God doesn't make that choice for us. He has given us a means of escape through Jesus Christ. If one refuses to accept Him, he has voluntarily made the choice for the afterlife. There again is Pascal's Wager but Pascal said the safe bet is on God existing.



Isa. 55:6-9:

6Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:

7Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

8For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

9For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

 

[billt]

I want to believe in his existence. Just not that kind of existence. I believe in, "forgiveness per say", but there has to be a, "punishment to fit the crime", so to speak. If God knows who does and doesn't believe, he also knows why. Intelligent people don't follow like blind Lemmings. They pose difficult questions, and want answers. This should not infuriate God to the degree that he punishes those individuals with an eternity in hell. Sometimes none of this makes any sense. A bit like the fortune tellers ad in the Yellow Pages that say's, "Call For Appointment". If they can predict the future, don't they know I'm coming?

 

[XD40scinNC]

I have never been a burden to others, and treat my dog better than many people treat their children. Yet, in spite of all that, if I die lacking the "belief" I don't have, I will burn in hell for all eternity.

Pretty much sums up the godthink of those suffering from the god delusion.

What is most telling about christianity and their "big 10" rules, is that the first 4 have nothing to do with how you treat your fellow man, but are only kowtowing to god rules.

The 10 Commandments have been presented as the ultimate guide to human morality. But a close inspection reveals that only five have a meaningful impact- do not steal, do not perjure, do not kill, honor your parents, and don’t commit adultery. Just as revealing is what is not included:

• No proscription of slavery
• No proscription of child endangerment
• No proscription of bigotry
• No proscription of racism
• No proscription of sexism
• No proscription of classism
• No proscription of blackmail or bribery
• No proscription of discrimination against LGBTQ persons
• No proscription of incest
• No proscription of torture or terrorism
• No proscription of rape
• No proscription against the mistreatment, exploitation, and relocation of native populations
• No command to treat animals humanely
• No command to take care of the earth’s environment
• No command to help others in need
• No command to settle disputes peacefully
• No command to distribute the earth’s resources fairly

Why would anyone want to join a club where the by-laws are so totally screwed up?

Oh, and the 'honor your parents' rule? There are many parents that do not need to be honored, the need to be in prison for child abuse.

 

[Gregmm6]

I want to believe in his existence. Just not that kind of existence. I believe in, "forgiveness per say", but there has to be a, "punishment to fit the crime", so to speak. If God knows who does and doesn't believe, he also knows why. Intelligent people don't follow like blind Lemmings. They pose difficult questions, and want answers. This should not infuriate God to the degree that he punishes those individuals with an eternity in hell. Sometimes none of this makes any sense. A bit like the fortune tellers ad in the Yellow Pages that say's, "Call For Appointment". If they can predict the future, don't they know I'm coming?

This. No god that is to be admired or loved would give us our ever-expanding intellect and boundless curiosity, only to punish those who ask questions and seek answers.

 

[Saltheart Foamfollower]

Pretty much sums up the godthink of those suffering from the god delusion.

What is most telling about christianity and their "big 10" rules, is that the first 4 have nothing to do with how you treat your fellow man, but are only kowtowing to god rules.

The 10 Commandments have been presented as the ultimate guide to human morality. But a close inspection reveals that only five have a meaningful impact- do not steal, do not perjure, do not kill, honor your parents, and don’t commit adultery. Just as revealing is what is not included:

• No proscription of slavery
• No proscription of child endangerment
• No proscription of bigotry
• No proscription of racism
• No proscription of sexism
• No proscription of classism
• No proscription of blackmail or bribery
• No proscription of discrimination against LGBTQ persons
• No proscription of incest
• No proscription of torture or terrorism
• No proscription of rape
• No proscription against the mistreatment, exploitation, and relocation of native populations
• No command to treat animals humanely
• No command to take care of the earth’s environment
• No command to help others in need
• No command to settle disputes peacefully
• No command to distribute the earth’s resources fairly

Why would anyone want to join a club where the by-laws are so totally screwed up?

Oh, and the 'honor your parents' rule? There are many parents that do not need to be honored, the need to be in prison for child abuse.

In response to this post, I actually find myself arguing FOR the theists. If you are going to choose 10 rules as the most important, which 10 do you choose? At the time the 10 commandments were supposedly written, things were very different.

 

[XD40scinNC]

In response to this post, I actually find myself arguing FOR the theists. If you are going to choose 10 rules as the most important, which 10 do you choose? At the time the 10 commandments were supposedly written, things were very different.

I'd leave out the 4 rules that mandate kowtowing, and set rules against child abuse (including incest), slavery, rape and torture

 

[Saltheart Foamfollower]

Different times, different priorities.

Sent from my XT907 using USA Carry mobile app

 

[fuhr52]

I'd leave out the 4 rules that mandate kowtowing, and set rules against child abuse (including incest), slavery, rape and torture

Must have missed something. I thought we already had rules against these activities. We have a free will to believe or not, that's up to each individual. What happens when we die? We cease to exist in this material would. As for the spirit world, Jesus appeared after his death and told us the spirit world is real. You can again choose to believe or not.

 

[Oldgrunt]

Must have missed something. I thought we already had rules against these activities. We have a free will to believe or not, that's up to each individual. What happens when we die? We cease to exist in this material would. As for the spirit world, Jesus appeared after his death and told us the spirit world is real. You can again choose to believe or not.

There is one thing to be learned from this thread, we are all beating a dead horse. Both sides are adamant in their beliefs and there seems to be no middle ground. So we all continue in our own way to exist in this life and, to some, prepare for their existence in the afterlife. I believe God is there waiting for us. Hope all others will not be disappointed in their beliefs.

 

[BC1]

Being a Christian does not, in itself, stop one from having the same thoughts concerning people like Charles Manson or any other criminal. We all hate the sinner and would like to see him burn in the lowest depths of hell. That is human nature and we all share that same thought. The idea of someone like him receiving forgiveness is repugnant to us but, and this is one great big but, we have to forgive him in order to have our own sins forgiven. That is why Jesus came to earth, "..that the world through Him might be saved." BC1 lost a child and you can see in his posts that it still eats at him after several years. He knows he has to forgive him, however difficult it may be, but he doesn't have to sit around and let the BG do it again. He takes action to prevent harm from befalling some other child. The lack of forgiveness comes from our human side and, as difficult as it may be, we have to overcome it. It won't be easy but it can be done. Vengeance is the right of the Lord and He says He will recompense. That is not being cruel. We have all been given the free will to choose. WE determine what will happen to us in the future. God doesn't make that choice for us. He has given us a means of escape through Jesus Christ. If one refuses to accept Him, he has voluntarily made the choice for the afterlife. There again is Pascal's Wager but Pascal said the safe bet is on God existing.



Isa. 55:6-9:

6Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:

7Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

8For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

9For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

You hit it directly on the head. People always tell me they would go kill the guy. I ask "and then what?" You've become him. You go to jail. Your family suffers even more without their patriarch. It's easy to exact revenge. Any moron can do it. It takes strength of convictions to refuse to take revenge. For me that strength comes from my belief. Not from the law. Not from fear of the courts. The law and the courts can go straight to hell; they released him after his first offense. They protect no one. It comes directly from my belief. I also know his life is hell because of the efforts I make to keep him in the public eye, including notifications in Spanish to the gang areas. They don't want pedophiles in their neighborhood either. The best thing I can do is ensure everyone knows him, hopefully reducing his ability to hide. I'd rather know where he is if that will reduce the threat to other kids rather than to see him move to a state where no one knows him.
.
Belief is a very powerful thing. More powerful than any court or law. Always check the background of people around your kids. These churches where he was working as a youth counselor didn't. They endangered their own parish.

 

[Gregmm6]

There is one thing to be learned from this thread, we are all beating a dead horse. Both sides are adamant in their beliefs and there seems to be no middle ground. So we all continue in our own way to exist in this life and, to some, prepare for their existence in the afterlife. I believe God is there waiting for us. Hope all others will not be disappointed in their beliefs.

"Both sides are adamant in their beliefs"

And there are some of us (like me) who have no beliefs on the topic. It's not a simple black-and-white type of discussion.

 

[Saltheart Foamfollower]

Must have missed something. I thought we already had rules against these activities. We have a free will to believe or not, that's up to each individual. What happens when we die? We cease to exist in this material would. As for the spirit world, Jesus appeared after his death and told us the spirit world is real. You can again choose to believe or not.

I don't think belief is a matter of choice. You either do or you don't.

 

[Oldgrunt]

"Both sides are adamant in their beliefs"

And there are some of us (like me) who have no beliefs on the topic. It's not a simple black-and-white type of discussion.

Greg: Old son, you would argue with a signpost. To be truthful, after all the posts you have made, I have no idea what you do, or do not believe, only that you seem to be oppositional to most anything posted. I agree with your statement that God would not punish one for "ever expanding intellectual development or boundless curiosity." I believe we were designed for both, however, that is not necessary for belief in God. The evidence for His existence has been presented and you either accept him or not. No need for advanced degrees or scientific curiosity. Belief is beautiful in its simplicity. Maybe you will find out one day!

 

[XD40scinNC]

Must have missed something. I thought we already had rules against these activities. We have a free will to believe or not, that's up to each individual. What happens when we die? We cease to exist in this material would. As for the spirit world, Jesus appeared after his death and told us the spirit world is real. You can again choose to believe or not.

My point is that "god's" big 10 rules don't cover this, man and society had to add these, often counter to the bible, which is riddled with incest and advocates slavery.

As for the choice of believing or not, no it is not choice, as I can't force myself to believe stuff that makes absolutely no sense, is fear based (wrathful god) and is supported with nothing but ancient superstition.

 

[fuhr52]

As for the choice of believing or not, no it is not choice, as I can't force myself to believe stuff that makes absolutely no sense, is fear based (wrathful god) and is supported with nothing but ancient superstition.

Yes it is a choice. It's human nature to fear the unknown. You have the choice to believe what makes you comfortable. If you choose to believe that God is some kind of ancient superstition, so be it.

 

[XD40scinNC]

Yes it is a choice. It's human nature to fear the unknown. You have the choice to believe what makes you comfortable. If you choose to believe that God is some kind of ancient superstition, so be it.

To be blunt, I cannot make myself believe in utter nonsense.

 

[Stan45]

To be blunt, I cannot make myself believe in utter nonsense.

God give you a free choice. You can take it or not.

 

[Oldgrunt]

XD: I was reading your list of no proscriptions, etc. in post #385 and went to the Bible to see if I could verify your contentions. But first, I would like to say that I am not making this response simply to be contentious but to show you what I found. I can't say I was too happy with one or two things I read but I will be honest about that up front. The list of references is quite long but they are all interesting to read from whatever standpoint one happens to have. As you will see, most of the items you listed are indeed covered in the Bible, maybe not in the same descriptive terms but they do convey the proper message. When you have time, read one or two of them and see if they don't cover the topic quite well. I am not trying to say that this is one of those "Gotcha" moments, just interesting reading and without any hostility meant. By the way, while reading for this, I ran across the Skeptics Annotated Bible, one I had never heard of before. I'm going to the bookstore in the morning to buy a copy of it. Might learn something new!


What Does the Bible Say About Slavery? Does it Condone It?

What Does the Bible Say About Same Sex Marriage? Is it Sin?

What the Bible says about slavery

What does the Bible say about racism, prejudice, and discrimination?

What does the Bible say about interracial marriage?

Link Removed

What Does the Bible Say About Class Discrimination?

Link Removed

What does the bible say about extortion

What Does the Bible Say About Child Abuse?

Sexism in the Bible: Is Christianity Sexist?

The Sexist Bible - Religious Criticism

What Does the Bible Say About Homosexuality?

What Does the Bible Say About Terrorism?

What does the Bible say about torture?

Bible Verses About the Environment - Bible Verses - Environment

What does the Bible say about animal rights?