Ignoring Gun Buster signage.

[RJT CCW]

What an awesome idea Trailboss!! How long have you been handing out these cards, and where can I get my hands on some? I'd love to do the same.

You can get cards from this website and put them on business card stock:

Free "No Guns, No Money" Cards

 

[Ruger357SP101]

Ok, so let's think this through...

If racial discrimination is not okay, then you agree that a business owner gives up some rights to operate a business, right? In truth, the fact that "it's his business" doesn't exempt him from multitudes of regulations, codes, laws, etc., right?

Even though "it's his business", he can't do as he pleases at all, can he? Once you acknowledge this (which you must), you've lost the argument.

A business owner doesn't have absolute, total control over his business. He never has. And he never should.

mistergus

I love this absurdity you have to turn to just try to justify YOUR bad behavior.
Ive explained in another post above.

And yeah. as far as prohibiting GUNS he DOES have the right or the damned law would make him take the damned NO GUNS signs DOWN !

.

 

[mistergus75]

No...perhaps YOU do.
IBut this isnt about blacks or race where a person has NO control over their skin color.
This is about the CHOICE to willingly recognize someones RIGHT to prohibit weapons on thier private property or not.

No business owner has the right to deny someone their rights in a public setting. If their business is some kind of private club/business, different story.

In fact, it's not their private property at all. It's not their private club, it's not their private home. Nothing "private" about it. It's public.

Anyway, ya'll hash this out. Can't spend all day on this.

mistergus75

 

[Ruger357SP101]

Gun owners who patronize business that are opposed to our second amendment rights are not doing themselves our the rest of the gun owning population any favors.

Agree 100%.

You have taken emotional intimacy from her. You have created a void between you and her. You have stolen from her and it is an on-going loss for all time. If someone stole some of her jewelery and she did not notice the loss, she still had the loss.

Sorry but this is hypothesis and conjecture.
The relationship did not necessarily change as you assume.
If it hasnt, what harm was done to the wife if she doesnt know?

MY point is that this isnt just about what the other person doesnt know.
Its about OUR integrity.
A trait that Im not seeing in a couple posters here.

What if you live in a small town and their is no other business that sells what you need in the area. And if you do disarm because of the sign, he has robbed you of your second amendment right.

What if the sky falls and the world blows up?
We can play that game all day long.
The issue is whether we have honor and integrity to respect someone elses rights on their own property.

One final thing, this thread has gotten really out of control. We are arguing minutia with our brothers.

Its not as minor an issue as you might believe.
I do a lot of research every day and this sort of thing is all over the web where the whole of us are being accused by ill behavior of the few ill behaved gun owners...felons or not.

 

[Axeanda45]

Your perpetual hit and run garbage is more of a distraction than a contribution.
Maybe putting you on ignore till you learn to read, comprehend what you read, and actually make contribution to the discussion is the way to go here.

Hit and run???? My goodness, I post in the morning BEFORE I went to work... and now, I begin to post again AFTER I get home, and that makes me full of garbage and a distraction?

Wow, you just keep piling on more proof of your ignorance and intolerance.......

 

[Ruger357SP101]

No business owner has the right to deny someone their rights in a public setting. If their business is some kind of private club/business, different story.

Sorry pal but youd better come visit Ohio sometime.
Carrying your gun into a posted business can cost you your carry license.
So yeah, they DO have that right.
And because its THEIR property they have the RIGHT to prohibit guns if they want.

In fact, it's not their private property at all.

Good grief you people and this BS.
It IS their private property!
I guess you guys have NEVER SEEN the PRIVATE PROPERTY TOW ZONES in most PRIVATELY OWNED parking lots, right?

yeah..it IS private property !

 

[Ruger357SP101]

Hit and run???? My goodness, I post in the morning BEFORE I went to work... and now, I begin to post again AFTER I get home, and that makes me full of garbage and a distraction?

Wow, you just keep piling on more proof of your ignorance and intolerance.......

All Ive seen is lying accusations, friend.
Care to try again?

I can REpost Ohio law that I posted earlier.
And YOU can post whatever irrelevance you were talking about too so we can see for ourselves.
And THEN you can show how it means that I LIED concerning Ohio law.

I go out of my way to be accurate as possible.
The MOST you caught me in was a typographical error or an honest mistake...though Im betting money it was neither.

 

[Ruger357SP101]

NO guns/no money flyers (text is the same as the cards you can get somewhere)

They can be one sided 8.5 x 11....or print the sheet and flip it, then cut in half for 5.5 x 8.5 instead.

 

[Ruger357SP101]

And, the Second Amendment is right in the middle of those same rights of equality of religion, race and gender. The right to keep and bear arms simply has not been defined by the US Supreme Court as being equal to the rights to racial, gender and religious equality. And if this nation was composed entirely of people like Ruger357SP101, we would not have the Heller decision or the McDonald decision. Likely, if everyone in this nation were in agreement with Ruger357SP101, we probably wouldn't even have the Terry v. Ohio decision.

And heck, we aren't even talking about violating laws or taking anything away from anybody or damaging them in any way. All we are talking about is ignoring a sign in a way that nobody will know we are ignoring in order to provide economic benefit to the business owner and ourselves.

if it were up to your type we'd all be living as subjects again based on whatever rights YOU personally felt were acceptable and you wanted to recognize.
That much is clear.
Youve proven yourself to be quite willing to trample on the other guys rights as YOU see fit.

 

[Axeanda45]

All Ive seen is lying accusations, friend.
Care to try again?

I can REpost Ohio law that I posted earlier.
And YOU can post whatever irrelevance you were talking about too so we can see for ourselves.
And THEN you can show how it means that I LIED concerning Ohio law.

I go out of my way to be accurate as possible.
The MOST you caught me in was a typographical error or an honest mistake...though Im betting money it was neither.

Wow, maybe next time you can actually come back with something that actually has a teeny tiny little bit about what you quoted........

 

[Ruger357SP101]

Wow, maybe next time you can actually come back with something that actually has a teeny tiny little bit about what you quoted........

That was my bad.
Not always easy to keep up with 4 or 5 discussions/debates at once

 

[Axeanda45]

That was my bad.
Not always easy to keep up with 4 or 5 discussions/debates at once

I can understand that....

BTW... This post doesnt mean I agree with anything else you have said. :biggrin:

 

[Ruger357SP101]

since this was brought up here too.

Ok lets deal with this idiocy once and for all.

I said;

Here in Ohio you'll face jail time if you use lethal force over property.

To which this nimrod apparently disagrees'

Anybody live in a state where ARMED ROBBERY is a PROPERTY crime?

The above quote would be COMPLETELY at home on AHSA's web site... if they still had one.

The above quoted individual is SO invested in his hatred of lawful self-defense that he would characterize a demand at gunpoint for a 70 year old woman's purse as a PROPERTY crime.

That he is to put it charitably, less than candid about it, is emblematic of fanatical anti-gunners.

And WHAT does the AG of Ohios data SAY in the matter?

Ohio’s
Concealed Carry Law
page 24

Defense of Property
There must be immediate threat of serious bodily harm or death in order to use deadly force.
Protecting property alone does not allow for the use of deadly force.
A property owner may use reasonable, but never deadly force, when he honestly believes that the force will protect his property from harm.
If a person’s property is being attacked or threatened, he may not use deadly force unless he reasonably believes it was the only way to protect himself or another from being killed or receiving serious bodily harm.
Deadly force can never be used solely to protect property no matter where the threat to the property occurs.

Huh...and WHAT did *I* actually SAY again????

Here in Ohio you'll face jail time if you use lethal force over property.

Wow...guess I was pretty much dead on.
Use lethal force over property alone and your ass is in deep doo doo.

 

[Itstjs]

Ah, you mean signs like this then huh?

Yeah, Im going to disarm myself....If they know Im carrying, Im already breaking the law by brandishing my weapon. If they do not know, its concealed, and Im certinally not going to disarm myself because the Business Owner "Knows best" for his customers. Liberal minded people will not choose for me, if I can go else where I will, but if I can not, hate to say it, but damn right Im ignoring the sign and walking inside. Most they can do is ask me to leave, and I will respectfully do so.

:cray:

 

[Ruger357SP101]

I can understand that....

BTW... This post doesnt mean I agree with anything else you have said. :biggrin:

I see what happened.
I mistook you for deanimator somehow.
Ive generally got at least 4 and sometimes up to 10 or more of these things going on at once and sometimes I get my posters crossed.
I use 'poster' which for some reason pisses people off, but in all honesty its because I cant keep track of names half the time.
I remember what is said, but sometimes attach it to the wrong person.

I do apologize for that particular post

 

[JSDinTexas]

Here in Texas, I abide by the Texas Concealed Handgun Laws. If a businsess wants to bar CHL holders from their premises, the state says they must do it with a compliant state approved sign. I follow the rules, so can they.

Actually, I've never seen a homemade no gun sign here in TX - may be one in super liberal, the sky is always falling, we love Obama, Austin - and if I encountered one, depends, probably go somewhere else if possible, or if I did go in certainly they wouldn't know I am carrying, and I would be smiling knowing their sign was not working. Legal signs only, because I DO respect the law.

 

[Itstjs]

Ruger have you heard of something called "Plausable Deniability?" If you dont SEE the sign, you dont have to obey, like say, the door was opened a by another person, sign is on the door, you dont see it. What then?

If there was a sign on the door that also said "For Your Safety Do Not Resist Criminal Attack" would you comply to this? It is PRIVATE PROPERTY after all.
What about places like Malls that do not have these signs? But after all, they do inform you that it is on THEIR website. Are you then breaking the law? No, law states it must be in plain view to every person who enters the establishment.
Ohio may be different than Michigan, but alot of the laws are the same, for instance, just because the business serves alcoholic beverages, does not mean you cant carry in there, 51% of their business has to come from Alcohol, Gunbuster signs are the same, pretty much across the USA.

If it is not listed in State law that it is a PFZ, you CAN carry inside that establishment, no matter of the signage. Most they can do is ask you to leave, no issue there. If you refuse, you can be served by an LEO with a minor Tresspassing citation.

Youre fighting an uphill battle here bud. Good luck I guess. Im sure if you ask ANY business owner if they want Guns in their facility, theyll tell you NO from a liability stand point, but Im sure theyll be glad a CPL holder DID ignore their signs when someone comes in with a 12 G shotgun demanding money. :cray:

 

[NavyLCDR]

If they know Im carrying, Im already breaking the law by brandishing my weapon.

I must respectfully disagree. Open carry is not illegal in Michigan. If they know you are carrying simply because you are openly carrying a handgun in a holster, you are breaking no laws.

 

[Ruger357SP101]

Ruger have you heard of something called "Plausable Deniability?" If you dont SEE the sign, you dont have to obey, like say, the door was opened a by another person, sign is on the door, you dont see it. What then?

Common sense issue. The law here says it has to be in a conspicuous place.
If its not an someone doesnt see it then they arent accountable.
Cant obey something you dont know about.

We had a pizza shop down the road here (out of business now).
This place was the best pizza Ive ever had other than Nirchis up in NY state where I used to live.
Id been going in there for months getting take out before I noticed that inside the window BEHIND the big sign that was out on the sidewalk, way down about 6 inches from the ground and behind VERY dark tinted glass I could barely make a out worn out GB sign.
I had already ordered my pizza, so I walked to the door with the wife, stood just outside while she walked in to pay and get the pizza.
I went back outside after, disarmed, grabbed some flyers and went back in.

Turns out the sign was there when the guy bought the place and he didnt give a rats rear one way or another, which is why he didnt pay any attention to covering it up with the other outdoor sign that sat in front of it.

If there was a sign on the door that also said "For Your Safety Do Not Resist Criminal Attack" would you comply to this? It is PRIVATE PROPERTY after all.

More absurdity from you folks..
If I saw a sign like that, Id open the front door, look inside and laugh my ass off while pointing at the sign, let them know they just lost a few bucks, and go shop somewhere else.

What about places like Malls that do not have these signs?

Around here they ARE posted very plainly on door windows except for one that Ive seen..and it IS posted, but only when you leave do you see it.
The law says that now that I know that they prohibit, Im breaking the law by carrying since I HAVE seen the sign.
Intent here in Ohio is pretty key.

Ohio may be different than Michigan,

I think it probably is. Though I dont spend much time worrying about other states laws.

but alot of the laws are the same, for instance, just because the business serves alcoholic beverages, does not mean you cant carry in there, 51% of their business has to come from Alcohol, Gunbuster signs are the same, pretty much across the USA.

here I cant even go into a business with a certain liquor license type where they serve on the premises.
Theyre working now to change that, but until it does.

If it is not listed in State law that it is a PFZ, you CAN carry inside that establishment, no matter of the signage.

Most they can do is ask you to leave, no issue there. If you refuse, you can be served by an LEO with a minor Tresspassing citation.

Which is the point of this discussion.
The owner has a RIGHT to say what he doesnt allow on his property.
Are we honoring the rights of OTHERS as we want OUR rights respected?
Or are we only doing what we are coerced or forced into doing?

You know, a small child lot of times only obeys out of fear of correction.
Are we on the level of small, spoiled children?
Or should we willingly respect the rights of others thereby setting the example and hopefully having it rub off on someone?

Youre fighting an uphill battle here bud.

No, you just dont comprehend what is going on here.
I have no intention of changing your mind or the minds of a couple others here.
It doesnt serve the purpose of this thread if these guys do or dont change their minds and learn to respect others rights.
The open discussion here does serve the purpose I had when I brought this topic up, however.
And hopefully any BradyDrones reading this will see that we ARE trying to correct the nuts in our ranks.

Good luck I guess. Im sure if you ask ANY business owner if they want Guns in their facility, theyll tell you NO from a liability stand point, but Im sure theyll be glad a CPL holder DID ignore their signs when someone comes in with a 12 G shotgun demanding money. :cray:

Actually most business owners here in my city dont care at all.
There are so few posted that its hardly worth thinking about
I might see one GB sign in a month and thats if I get around a lot that month

 

[Ruger357SP101]

I must respectfully disagree. Open carry is not illegal in Michigan. If they know you are carrying simply because you are openly carrying a handgun in a holster, you are breaking no laws.

If its like Ohio, which IS open carry as far as the law goes, you can still get a brandishing charge in certain situations.
I believe it would take something like either drawing your gun or making someone think you were going to, but frankly its better to just not let them know you are carrying.

Ive heard cases where some ass wrongly accused someone they knew had a gun of pulling it on them.
Better to keep the gun hidden and never tell a soul you dont know you have it.