Do You Support Nation Wide Constitutional Carry?

[Treo]

People that carry firearms around in public occasionally have to make life-altering decisions. They need to be licensed as well instead of hiding behind the 2A.

I don't want an unlicensed electrician coming in and doing work on my house and I don't want unlicensed people walking around the street with guns.

Oh it's good to be an "elitist"!

Again, I'd like to point out that in the geographic majority of the country it is perfectly legally to carry a firearm in public w/ no permit requirement of any kind. I don't seem to see a large number of instances of people legally carrying a firearm in public miss using them.

Also, many states that do issue permits do so w/ no training requirement either. You pay 10 bucks and walk out of the station w/ a permit. No blood in the streets yet

Vermont has never had a law prohibiting unlicensed concealed carry yet, not a large number of problems there either.

An honest man doesn't need gun laws and a dishonest man won't follow them

 

[gregory44mag]

This country got along fine for the first 150 or so years of its existence w/ no such requirement. Several state now issue permits w/ no trining requirement and it doesn't seem to have a detrimental effect on their general population. In many states I can open carry a firearm w/ no permit, no trainig and again, no apparent detrimental effect.

IMO if we went to constitutional carry (and we will it's just a question of when ) it would cease to be an issue because no one would know who was carrying. Right now criminals carry w/ out benefit of a permit and I don't hear the media screaming over that.

For the first 150 years or so in this rough and rugged country the weak and the STUPID did not survive. Not so the case in this day and age! I understand that several states issue permits with no training BUT carrying a concealed fire arm demands knowledge and training so the accidents that you hear about repeatedly cease to happen. I can open carry in my state with no training or permit but you can bet your ass that the first LEO that happens across you will make sure your legal to due so!! And what do you mean about the criminals?? THEY ARE THE WHOLE REASON THAT THERE IS SUCH A CONTROVERSEY WITH FIRE ARMS IN THE FIRST PLACE!! Again this is my opinion!

 

[Treo]

For the first 150 years or so in this rough and rugged country the weak and the STUPID did not survive. Not so the case in this day and age!

No Comment

I understand that several states issue permits with no training BUT carrying a concealed fire arm demands knowledge and training so the accidents that you hear about repeatedly cease to happen.

Firearms ownership is at an all time high (thank you Barry) yet firearms related accidents continue to fall. Things that make you go hmmmm?

I can open carry in my state with no training or permit but you can bet your ass that the first LEO that happens across you will make sure your legal to due so!!

Interesting I OC around cops frequently and I've never been harrassed by one they generally ignore it.

And what do you mean about the criminals?? THEY ARE THE WHOLE REASON THAT THERE IS SUCH A CONTROVERSEY WITH FIRE ARMS IN THE FIRST PLACE!! Again this is my opinion!

Aaaaaaand this is so nonsensical I don't even know where to begin care to restate it in English?

 

[B2Tall]

Firearms ownership is at an all time high (thank you Barry) yet firearms related accidents continue to fall. Things that make you go hmmmm?

Absolutely 100% correct. Now check your source for a reason why firearm related accidents are so low. You're gonna find the NRA and other pro-gun sources attribute this to <drum roll please>.....increased firearm education and training! Hooray!!

Bingo. Exactly what I'm advocating. A simple safety/training course to help make things a little safer for all of us. It also means that the person who might need to defend themselves will have a better chance of doing so successfully.

Can't wait to see the arguments against this. Some people apparently have more than one nose to cut off their face! :laugh:

 

[Treo]

Absolutely 100% correct. Now check your source for a reason why firearm related accidents are so low. You're gonna find the NRA and other pro-gun sources attribute this to <drum roll please>.....increased firearm education and training! Hooray!!

Bingo. Exactly what I'm advocating. A simple safety/training course to help make things a little safer for all of us. It also means that the person who might need to defend themselves will have a better chance of doing so successfully.

Can't wait to see the arguments against this. Some people apparently have more than one nose to cut off their face! :laugh:

It isn't state mandated training. The state mandated traing I went to had no standard , no shooting requirement, and no state approved ciricula I could have paid the guuy 90 bucks just to sign off on my training requirement and got the permit. I could have shown my DD55A (National Guard Equivelent of a DD214) and got the permit and I never touched a hand gun in the military.

I think Colorado's law demonstrates the absurdity of the permit system.

In Colorado open carry is legal. No permit. no background check no class, no money for the state.

If I want to put on a jacket I have to go to a class, pay for fingerprinting and a background check. and apply for a (shall issue) permit.

The only thing that changed was jacket I'm also all for personal responsibility, it is not the state's job to make sure I know how to safely handle a firearm.

 

[B2Tall]

And, of course, training and permitting will fix that?

The NRA seems to think so. They're probably the biggest firearm safety/training advocates in the nation.

Link Removed

Does that make them favorites of the Brady Bill supporters too??

 

[B2Tall]

It isn't state mandated training.

Shouldn't it be?? (That's a rhetorical question. I know your answer and you know mine). It works....it makes a difference in a positive way. Even the lord-god-king of all 2A rights organizations, the NRA, makes that abundantly clear.

Find a pro-gun organization and you'll find an organization that supports firearm safety training.

 

[Treo]

Find a pro-gun organization and you'll find an organization that supports firearm safety training.

I support firearm safety training. I just don't think it should be state mandated.

Or, if you're so hot for state mandated training, how about everyone ( w/ parental consent of course) goes through Eddie Eagle in the 6th grade and we call it good?

 

[gregory44mag]

Or, if you're so hot for state mandated training, how about everyone ( w/ parental consent of course) goes through Eddie Eagle in the 6th grade and we call it good?[/QUOTE]

I could agree with that!! Now thats a class I would have liked in school

 

[B2Tall]

I support firearm safety training. I just don't think it should be state mandated.

Or, if you're so hot for state mandated training, how about everyone ( w/ parental consent of course) goes through Eddie Eagle in the 6th grade and we call it good?

Sounds good but might not be very effective if somebody is getting their permit 30 yrs later after not having touched a gun in the intervening time period.

I learned a lot in my CCW class. Not anything technical (I had been shooting since I was a child) but I learned an awful lot of legal stuff. You're not gonna get that in an Eddie Eagle program as a 10-11 yr old. I'm very glad I took the course.

I guess public safety is a high priority for me on the road to excercising 2A rights. Yours (and others) seems to be the speed and ease with which you can do it.

 

[handgonnetoter]

Man, why are you guys going back and forth at each other over this. Seriously, this "National" law or permit allowing carry anywhere will probably never happen.

 

[Ruger357SP101]

Three states (Alaska, Arizon and Vermont) do not require a concealed hand gun permit to carry a concealed firearm w/ in their state.

Do you think this should be the norm?

Why or why not?

I do support the federal government accepting our 2nd amendment rights and acknowledging for what they are.
However I am not for a federal level 'licensing' system for concealed carry simply because the states are probably the only thing that keeps the feds in check where guns are concerned.

If they have a federal CCW license then the feds call the shots. Im not comfortable with having a license that can be drastically changed or revoked at the whim the feds given their history the last couple decades.
Who's to say that there wont be some crazy stipulations like if an 'assault' weapon ban happens again that the CCW license holder will have to turn in any said 'assault' weapons or lose that license.

Im not a conspiracy theory nut...I just think many federal level politicians have their heads up their rear ends.

I think the states should get together and work on a nationally accepted license policy that they all agree on. Keep the feds out of it.
That way if ONE state changes its mind, it has no effect on the other 49.

 

[Ruger357SP101]

It is sort of ridiculous when you think about it.
Here in Ohio the law doesnt prohibit open carry.
So lawfully I can carry open without a single second of training.
But if I want to carry concealed I have to take a course and get a license ?

Im not really comprehending the reasoning there. Both should be the same...ie if we're going to insist on training or a license, it should apply to both or neither.
Neither would be fine with me.
I mean, we cant actually believe that the rest of us are dumber than folks in Vermont.
Are we ? :cray:

 

[Treo]

I guess public safety is a high priority for me on the road to excercising 2A rights. Yours (and others) seems to be the speed and ease with which you can do it.

It's not that public safety isn't a high piority; my issue is thae fact that places like Vermont (no permit required) and states that have little or no "training" requirement before they'll issue you a permit tell me that permits really aren't what enhances public safety anymore than closing the "gunshow loophole" is going to stop fifty caliber machine guns from showing up at drug bust in Mexico.

If permits make people safer why doesn't Vermont have a significantly higher instance of firearm related deaths?

 

[Treo]

Just to clarifiy I am not talking about a "National Permit" or a "National Law" I'm talking about every state going permitless

 

[Ruger357SP101]

If permits make people safer why doesn't Vermont have a significantly higher instance of firearm related deaths?

That detail does seem to gum up the works as far as claiming that permits and training make people 'safer'.
Im not against training at all. Just not so sure that its requirement has made us any safer at all.

 

[B2Tall]

It's not that public safety isn't a high piority; my issue is thae fact that places like Vermont (no permit required) and states that have little or no "training" requirement before they'll issue you a permit tell me that permits really aren't what enhances public safety anymore than closing the "gunshow loophole" is going to stop fifty caliber machine guns from showing up at drug bust in Mexico.

If permits make people safer why doesn't Vermont have a significantly higher instance of firearm related deaths?

Here are the firearm death rates for each state according to the most recent data from the Center for Disease Control. I have highlighted the 3 states you spoke of as requiring no permit for carrying.

# 1 District of Columbia: 31.2
# 2 Alaska: 20
# 3 Louisiana: 19.5
# 4 Wyoming: 18.8
# 5 Arizona: 18
# 6 Nevada: 17.3
# 6 Mississippi: 17.3
# 8 New Mexico: 16.6
# 9 Arkansas: 16.3
# 10 Alabama: 16.2
# 11 Tennessee: 15.4
# 12 West Virginia: 14.7
# 13 Montana: 14.5
# 14 South Carolina: 13.8
# 15 North Carolina: 13.6
# 16 Georgia: 13.4
# 17 Kentucky: 13.1
# 17 Oklahoma: 13.1
# 19 Missouri: 12.3
# 19 Idaho: 12.3
# 21 Indiana: 11.7
# 22 Colorado: 11.5
# 22 Maryland: 11.5
# 24 Florida: 11.1
# 24 Virginia: 11.1
# 26 Texas: 11
# 27 Michigan: 10.9
# 28 Oregon: 10.5
# 29 Pennsylvania: 9.9
# 30 California: 9.8
# 31 Illinois: 9.7
# 31 Kansas: 9.7
# 31 Utah: 9.7
# 34 Vermont: 9.6
# 35 Ohio: 9.3
# 35 Washington: 9.3
# 37 Delaware: 9.1
# 37 North Dakota: 9.1
# 39 Wisconsin: 8.1
# 39 Nebraska: 8.1
# 41 South Dakota: 7.9
# 42 Iowa: 6.7
# 43 Maine: 6.5
# 44 Minnesota: 6
# 45 New Hampshire: 5.8
# 46 Rhode Island: 5.1
# 46 New York: 5.1
# 48 New Jersey: 4.9
# 49 Connecticut: 4.3
# 50 Massachusetts: 3.1
# 51 Hawaii: 2.8
Weighted average: 11.5

You're starting to become my best ally in this argument. Earlier you pointed out that gun deaths are comparatively low and when I went to check on the stats (you were correct) I learned that the NRA and others attributed this to increased training and safety education w/ respect to firearms - exactly what I've been preaching.

Now you point out that Vermont (a permit-free state) has a low firearm death rate and when I check on those stats I find that the other 2 permit-free states are among the worst in terms of firearm deaths. The very stats that you have presented seem to point in favor of my view and not yours.

This aspect of your argument isn't holding much water.

 

[Kasper]

That detail does seem to gum up the works as far as claiming that permits and training make people 'safer'.
Im not against training at all. Just not so sure that its requirement has made us any safer at all.

You mean all the training we give the Police who are suppose to protect us is what keeps us safe from gun. I say Hell no. If you look at all the shooting done by police departments and the bystanders that were hit compared to citizens with CCW permits that were involved in shootings and the number of bystanders that got hit.

The CCW citizens have a lower number of missed shots and bystanders hit by the misplaced bullets.

These are just facts that for some reason never get told by the media.

So you want citizens to have training before being allowed to carry a gun but don't care that the police officers are trained and are the people you should be worried about being shot by. The training they receive is not at the level that most CCW citizens pay for.

So wanting people to receive training before carrying a gun is a dumb idea if you are willing to leave off the quality of the training the person has to receive. As pointed out above police receive training and going by the facts the training they got was not good or to the level of the CCW citizens had.

 

[Kasper]

Here are the firearm death rates for each state according to the most recent data from the Center for Disease Control. I have highlighted the 3 states you spoke of as requiring no permit for carrying.

# 1 District of Columbia: 31.2
# 2 Alaska: 20
# 3 Louisiana: 19.5
# 4 Wyoming: 18.8
# 5 Arizona: 18
# 6 Nevada: 17.3
# 6 Mississippi: 17.3
# 8 New Mexico: 16.6
# 9 Arkansas: 16.3
# 10 Alabama: 16.2
# 11 Tennessee: 15.4
# 12 West Virginia: 14.7
# 13 Montana: 14.5
# 14 South Carolina: 13.8
# 15 North Carolina: 13.6
# 16 Georgia: 13.4
# 17 Kentucky: 13.1
# 17 Oklahoma: 13.1
# 19 Missouri: 12.3
# 19 Idaho: 12.3
# 21 Indiana: 11.7
# 22 Colorado: 11.5
# 22 Maryland: 11.5
# 24 Florida: 11.1
# 24 Virginia: 11.1
# 26 Texas: 11
# 27 Michigan: 10.9
# 28 Oregon: 10.5
# 29 Pennsylvania: 9.9
# 30 California: 9.8
# 31 Illinois: 9.7
# 31 Kansas: 9.7
# 31 Utah: 9.7
# 34 Vermont: 9.6
# 35 Ohio: 9.3
# 35 Washington: 9.3
# 37 Delaware: 9.1
# 37 North Dakota: 9.1
# 39 Wisconsin: 8.1
# 39 Nebraska: 8.1
# 41 South Dakota: 7.9
# 42 Iowa: 6.7
# 43 Maine: 6.5
# 44 Minnesota: 6
# 45 New Hampshire: 5.8
# 46 Rhode Island: 5.1
# 46 New York: 5.1
# 48 New Jersey: 4.9
# 49 Connecticut: 4.3
# 50 Massachusetts: 3.1
# 51 Hawaii: 2.8
Weighted average: 11.5

You're starting to become my best ally in this argument. Earlier you pointed out that gun deaths are comparatively low and when I went to check on the stats (you were correct) I learned that the NRA and others attributed this to increased training and safety education w/ respect to firearms - exactly what I've been preaching.

Now you point out that Vermont (a permit-free state) has a low firearm death rate and when I check on those stats I find that the other 2 permit-free states are among the worst in terms of firearm deaths. The very stats that you have presented seem to point in favor of my view and not yours.

This aspect of your argument isn't holding much water.

Thanks for proving it to me how ignorant you are. Looking at the info you posted does not help you case due to the number one spot being held by a state that had gun control laws that they had to edit after the ruling by the supreme court. So the info you posted helps prove that gun control does nothing to help the safety of the state.

So out of the top ten states with gun related deaths only 2 of the 3 states show up. And they are not the top 3 on the list. Numbers 2, 5 and 34 if the 3 states where all in the top ten I would say you have a point that the data reflects your opinion. But Vermont ruins you opinion by being so low on the list. That means that there is some other cause for the death rate by guns that is listed above. Going by your opinion the top 3 on the list should be Alaska, Arizona and Vermont. Well only one of these 3 falls in the top 3 states on the list Alaska. The other 2 states have gun control laws that are not doing anything to lower the death rate.

It is only my opinion backed by the facts that you listed that your opinion is flawed and needs to be revised. If I was ignorant when interpreting the data please point out my ignorance so that I will learn from it

 

[B2Tall]

It is only my opinion backed by the facts that you listed that your opinion is flawed and needs to be revised. If I was ignorant when interpreting the data please point out my ignorance so that I will learn from it

I will gladly (and easily) point out your ignorance.

My post was in response to "Treo" who has repeatedly stated that the 3 states that require no permit to carry are no more dangerous (or possibly even safer) in terms of firearm deaths than the states that do require a permit. The stats that I presented proved that "Treo" is absolutely wrong in his assertaions. Refuting his claim was my only goal. I succeeded.

I'm fully aware that many factors can influence a stat like firearm deaths.