You don't need Firearms Training-Do you?


Train at home with all possible barriers in it. Have a plan.

The dynamics of an encounter will probably be nothing like you have trained for, but it is good to train, nonetheless.

Outside the home, variables are large. Become proficient at the range.

Chances are the dynamics there are stress and surprise.

With adrenalin flowing and the need to instantly stop a fatal attack, odds go way up that training goes out the window, unless you train regularly, which is nearly impossible because of cost.

I've wrestled with this whole issue for months, and decided I'll take my chances with a home barrier plan, and wing-it in public. YMMV.

We have a duty to retreat in AR, before lethal force is used, assuming there is ample time to retreat. If not, lethal force is justified if you fear for your life.
 

Ok... I'll bite... what level of training do you consider/recommend as the lowest level of training "acceptable" for the common person before they should be allowed to carry a gun for self defensive purposes?

This question assumes that I believe there should be a minimum qualification on an enumerated right. Once you start qualifying rights they aren’t rights anymore. I believe that once you reach the age of majority and you are entrusted with a vote you should have all your rights.

The minimum I would recommend is (obviously) basic marksmanship/Safety, Shoot and move training, some serious FoF training including some no win situation training and some weapons retention training.

If you ever are involved in a gunfight it’s going to be the most serious minute of your life. Stack the odds in your favor as high as you can
 
With adrenalin flowing and the need to instantly stop a fatal attack, odds go way up that training goes out the window, unless you train regularly, which is nearly impossible because of cost.

Practicing what you've trained on previously helps
 
This question assumes that I believe there should be a minimum qualification on an enumerated right. Once you start qualifying rights they aren’t rights anymore. I believe that once you reach the age of majority and you are entrusted with a vote you should have all your rights.

Does that mean you believe even those who have absolutely no training should be entrusted with carrying a gun?

The minimum I would recommend is (obviously) basic marksmanship/Safety, Shoot and move training, some serious FoF training including some no win situation training and some weapons retention training.

Let me point out that the minimum level of training that you "recommend" is costly, time consuming, and can be out of reach of many common ordinary folks simply because of those two considerations. Should such folks not be "allowed" to carry a gun?

If you ever are involved in a gunfight it’s going to be the most serious minute of your life. Stack the odds in your favor as high as you can
Part of my response is within the post above in blue...

Yes, the middle of a gunfight is a very serious moment in life... deadly serious (no pun intended) yet I wonder how many of the folks who shot and killed criminals came close to meeting your recommended "minimum"?

https://www.gunowners.org/sk0802htm.htm

Fact Sheet: Guns Save Lives

Monday, 29 September 2008 00:00 Written by Administrator
Fact Sheet: Guns Save Lives
A. Guns save more lives than they take; prevent more injuries than they inflict
-snip-
* Armed citizens kill more crooks than do the police. Citizens shoot and kill at least twice as many criminals as police do every year (1,527 to 606).[6] And readers of Newsweek learned that "only 2 percent of civilian shootings involved an innocent person mistakenly identified as a criminal. The 'error rate' for the police, however, was 11 percent, more than five times as high."[7]
-snip-

The following is not directed at Eidolon but are general comments...

Now to be clear. I am not knocking training. What I am taking exception to is what happens to the right to bear arms when folks think there should be a "minimum" level of training because it is that kind of thinking that brings about criteria that is "required" to be met before being "allowed" to exercise the right to bear arms. And it is that kind of thinking that created the current carry "permit" system. After all... a "permit" is merely the State's "permission" IF a person meets the minimum training level considered "acceptable". And once a "minimum level of training that is acceptable" is adopted it is very easy to keep increasing the difficulty of the criteria... not to mention continuing to increase the costs until the very poor are priced right out of the entire system.

And there are many folks who are already so poor just the cost of getting a carry permit is out of their reach so the truth is the government's carry "permit" system discriminates against an entire segment of the population based upon the lack of financial resources.

So what level of training should be "acceptable" before folks are "allowed" to exercise the right to bear arms by carrying a gun? I have a better question...

Who... whether that be an individual.. a group of individuals... or even a government.. is so superior that they are qualified to decree what are "acceptable" "minimums" to decide who should, and more importantly who shouldn't!, be "allowed" to defend their very lives by exercising their right to bear arms?
 
Does that mean you believe even those who have absolutely no training should be entrusted with carrying a gun?

Objection, the prosecution is leading the witness. While I do not believe it is wise for a person with absolutely no training to carry a firearm I will state again that there should be no minimum qualification (save reaching the age of majority) on exercising a Constitutional right.

Let me point out that the minimum level of training that you "recommend" is costly, time consuming, and can be out of reach of many common ordinary folks simply because of those two considerations. Should such folks not be "allowed" to carry a gun?

Again, you are asking me to defend a position I do not hold.

What I am taking exception to is what happens to the right to bear arms when folks think there should be a "minimum" level of training because it is that kind of thinking that brings about criteria that is "required" to be met before being "allowed" to exercise the right to bear arms.

Objection, assumes facts not in evidence, no one here is advocating a mandated training minimum before being allowed to exercise a Civil Liberty.

Let me point out that the minimum level of training that you "recommend" is costly (and) time consuming,

So is getting shot.


So what level of training should be "acceptable" before folks are "allowed" to exercise the right to bear arms by carrying a gun?

Why do you keep asking me to defend a thesis I never posited?
 
Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
Does that mean you believe even those who have absolutely no training should be entrusted with carrying a gun?
Objection, the prosecution is leading the witness. While I do not believe it is wise for a person with absolutely no training to carry a firearm I will state again that there should be no minimum qualification (save reaching the age of majority) on exercising a Constitutional right.

Leading the witness? I merely asked you a question to clarify your beliefs. Thank you for answering.

Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
Let me point out that the minimum level of training that you "recommend" is costly, time consuming, and can be out of reach of many common ordinary folks simply because of those two considerations. Should such folks not be "allowed" to carry a gun?

Again, you are asking me to defend a position I do not hold.

Incorrect... I didn't ask you to defend any position. I asked a question. And you evaded answering. Noted.

Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
What I am taking exception to is what happens to the right to bear arms when folks think there should be a "minimum" level of training because it is that kind of thinking that brings about criteria that is "required" to be met before being "allowed" to exercise the right to bear arms.

Objection, assumes facts not in evidence, no one here is advocating a mandated training minimum before being allowed to exercise a Civil Liberty.

Didn't say anyone did... I merely made a statement. A statement based in fact when the permit system was instituted there was a level of training required in order to qualify to being given the government's permission to carry a concealed "arm".

Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
Let me point out that the minimum level of training that you "recommend" is costly (and) time consuming,

So is getting shot.

I merely mentioned that some folks can't afford to spend the amount of money and time to gain the level of training you "recommend". Please bear in mind that a lack of training is not a guarantee of being shot just as having all the training in the world is a guarantee of not being shot.

Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
So what level of training should be "acceptable" before folks are "allowed" to exercise the right to bear arms by carrying a gun?

Why do you keep asking me to defend a thesis I never posited?

Perhaps you missed this part of my post?

Originally posted by Bikenut
The following is not directed at Eidolon but are general comments...
Which would be notice that the part you are complaining about wasn't even directed at you or expecting you to defend any "thesis" in the first place.
My reply is contained within the post above in blue.
 
Incorrect... I didn't ask you to defend any position. I asked a question. And you evaded answering. Noted.

in blue.

I did answer the question. It's the same question (reworded) you posted right above it

Does that mean you believe even those who have absolutely no training should be entrusted with carrying a gun?

Objection, the prosecution is leading the witness. While I do not believe it is wise for a person with absolutely no training to carry a firearm I will state again that there should be no minimum qualification (save reaching the age of majority) on exercising a Constitutional right.
 
I studied law a bit, which doesn't make me a lawyer, but it does make me a paralegal. It would be called *speculation*, and is not admissible in a court of law. Any training what so ever could be held against you if such things were allowed. First, they must prove intent.
Yeah, OK , any idea how the Zimmerman case went? Although a plethora of "Speculation" was given he eventually was acquitted. BUT, and it's a huge BUTT, speculation controlled most of the case. Different jury, different area of the country, COULD have swayed the other way. JUZ saying :>)
 
A little bit of digging shows that author to be a familiar face Link Removed

Not saying I'm siding with him...in PA no training is "required" for a LTCF as it should be...but training is a personal preference. I carried for 20 years before I took my first documented training. Doesn't mean I didn't have any other.
 
I did not listen to any of the Zimmerman trial. Are you sure speculation was allowed?

Yeah, OK , any idea how the Zimmerman case went? Although a plethora of "Speculation" was given he eventually was acquitted. BUT, and it's a huge BUTT, speculation controlled most of the case. Different jury, different area of the country, COULD have swayed the other way. JUZ saying :>)
 
OK, a few insights I have gained from the previous posts that I think we all agree on.
1. Training is good.
2. Training should not be mandatory.
3. Lack of training should not preclude one from exercising their rights or defending themselves.
-
Regarding the court/law/training stuff. IMO if you have aggressive rather than defensive training, and you have 2 lawyers arguing whether this is good or bad in your post-shooting trial, it is a toss-up based on the jury which argument wins. You roll the dice and take your chances. I guess that would depend on where you live how comfortable you feel with the outcome, or how articulate your lawyer is vs the other guys and who makes the most convincing argument. It is definitely not a point of law, but as your record of training could be subpoenaed by the defense, it would be admissible in court because it has bearing on the case.
 
Ok... I'll bite... what level of training do you consider/recommend as the lowest level of training "acceptable" for the common person before they should be allowed to carry a gun for self defensive purposes?

After "they" sign the 4473 and pay for the gun.


And to be truthful... I believe that the simple NCIC's is too much restriction!


Sent from behind enemy lines.
 
After "they" sign the 4473 and pay for the gun.


And to be truthful... I believe that the simple NCIC's is too much restriction!


Sent from behind enemy lines.

Given that NCIC almost never prosecutes 4473 violations I wouldn't even suggest that as a qualification. I don't have to go through a background check to ensure I'm not under a suspended license when i buy booze.

They day you turn 18 your second amendment rights should be fully vested
 
I know I need training and have purchased several memberships to Front Sight Firearms Training Institute in Pahrump, NV and have had them a few years. I have finally booked a 4 day defensive handgun course for next month and can't wait to get there and take the course! The course is free with my membership without it the 4 day course is $2,000 and a 2 day course is $1,000. I plan on driving out the 2,000 miles and seeing some country on the way out and back. I plan on going back out this fall with the wife and if my son can get the time off, him too. I will probably take one of the many other courses they offer maybe a rifle course this fall. I am a member of my local gun range , but I feel the education I will gain at Front Sight will be well worth the trip!
 

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