What do you do when the local LEO doesn't know the law?

[Wyldekard]

I rode my motorcycle to visit my daughter in a small town in eastern Nebraska a while ago. I wore a vest and a shoulder holster. I checked before I rode out and the weapon did not show.

When I got to the little town in Nebraska, I stopped at the first quick store in town to get a pop to drink. There was a cop car parked outside. Since It was just an in and out under a minute stop, I didn't take my helmet off just flipped the visor up. Inside was the cop, 4 older guys, and the woman who worked there at a raised counter. I nodded to the cop as I passed him and went to the cooler to get my soda. When I took it to the counter, you could cut the tension with a knife. The guy I walked up next to pay jumped 2 feet to get away from me. The woman who worked there was so scared she could barely get the cash register to work. I got my change and got out of there.

I try to stay aware of my situation at all times and I always have my handlebars set so I can see behind me in the mirrors. The local LEO came out a few seconds behind me and as I was putting the pop in my sissy bar bag. I saw him standing about 10 feet from me, with his hand on his weapon, and heard him say something. I just couldn't hear what with my helmet on. I asked him if he was talking to me? He then asked me if I was going to Sturgis? I said no, I'm here to visit my daughter who lives in this town. He just stood there, with his hand on the butt of his pistol, staring at me. I know as soon as a cop talks to you that you can be considered "detained" so I just stood there. Finally he said "I seen a leather strap under your vest, are you carrying a gun"? I said yes I am. He stood there again just staring at me. Finally he said "were you going to tell me anything"? I said no. Then it got serious. He said "in Nebraska you have to inform me if you are carrying". I told him I was from Iowa and there we aren't required to tell anybody anything. So then he goes on to tell me that I have to inform law enforcement or emergency personell I'm carrying even if it's a chance encounter in a convienence store. I told him that doesn't make any sense to me and asked him if he's driving down the road going south and I'm driving north do I got to turn around and run him down to tell him I'm carrying? He then went on to tell me about some guy who proactively went up to him, showed him his permit, and he confiscated the guys gun anyway and still hasn't given it back. Well about this time I'm getting pissed off with the veiled threat to take my gun and all so I pulled my permit to carry and gave it to him and said I still don't think he's got it right that I have to find him as soon as I get to town so I can tell him I'm in town and I'm carrying. I've never been good at covering up the fact I'm getting pissed off and when I get to "mad" it has never went well. Most times not for me. Sometimes not for the other guy.

For what reason I'll never know, but when he looked my permit over his attitude changed. He took his hand off his weapon for the first time since this started and suddenly he was my buddy. He handed my permit back and told me I didn't have to find him when I got to town or even bother to tell him I'm carrying again because he would remember me and just assume I was armed. Then he kind of apologized and told he just came from Arizona and " a lot of guys wearing the uniform are getting shot". Then he complimented my motorcycle and told me to have a good visit with my daughter.

When I got to my daughters' house we immediately jumped on the internet and checked Nebraska state law regarding concealed carry. The law states that if it is an official contact, the permit holder is required to inform police and emergency personell of the weapon. This cop hassled me because he didn't know the law he was being paid to enforce and asking me if I'm going somewhere isn't an official stop neither is my walking by him in a convenience store. He also scared the crap out of the people in the store because he had to have given them the idea I was a criminal that was going to rob the place at gunpoint. All because he saw a keather strap. Hell it could just as well have been holding up a colostomy bag.

This whole situation could have, and should have, been avoided. It should not be okay to hassle a law abiding citizen minding his own business and boosting the local economy because the cops don't know the law. Law enforcement are assuming authority they do not have and politicians are backing their play because they are cheap and easy cowards who ignore the constitution. If this continues, it will result in a pitifull end to a great country.

 

[jcallaway98]

Sounds to me like you were close to Omaha, because they like to try and make their own laws. It took the state legislature 3 tries to make it clear to Omaha that they couldn't override state carry laws. I live in the state and have had at least 5 encounters with law enforcement, all being very positive, but when I'm on that side of the state (Omaha) I go out of my way to avoid law enforcement there. 4 out of the 5 the officers completely dropped their guard and relaxed after I informed them as required.

 

[crowsnake]

I don't wear a helmet into a store, a full face helmet kinda says ski mask. (I don't wear full face helmets cause they hurt my neck BAD. The weight I just can't handle.) But I can see where it could scare a cashier. But even a half helmet & sun glasses can give that effect. Especially if u left your gloves on.

Now the cop could have overreacted even more than he did. Im not saying he was right, but he might have thought u were changing your plan cause he was there & had bad intentions for the next gas station.

Look @ it from the other side of the counter. You scared those ppl. LOL.

 

[Keykutter]

If that's what the cop thought, he should Have just said 'ppphewww' when you left, be glad he was wrong and then just stayed in the store and laughed about it with the locals.

You never know, the guy that robbed the store last week may have come in the same way.

I can see his alarm but not the confrontation afterwards.

KK

 

[whitetiger]

That happen to me too. I posted it here a few weeks ago I was getting a pop too at a gas station and I was not carrying just had a tool pouch on my belt. the cop frisked me. I have a ccw permitt now and do carry a gun now. I guess they still want to do the old wild west thing and check out the new guy in town stuff. I have not been stopped yet while carrying.

 

[Deserteagle]

The law states that if it is an official contact, the permit holder is required to inform police and emergency personell of the weapon.

Well the issue is the law itself. It comes down to what is meant by "official".

This cop hassled me because he didn't know the law he was being paid to enforce

Seems like he actually did know the law. He correctly informed you that you are required to notify. He also seems to be a nice guy actually. He could have cited you for not notifying and probably could have won, but he didnt because he seems to know the law, and also does not seem to be out to cite people for everything he can.

Sounds like a pleasant encounter to me.

 

[twotonevert]

Sounds to me like it worked out ok. Please dont take this the wrong way, but I also carry on my bike and never ever wear a helmet into a store. The fact that your identity was concealed by the helmet and he thought you were carrying gave him reason to check you. Once he knew you were licensed he relaxed. People around here freak out when you wear a helmet into a store. Its not worth the hassle. I understand, by the time I remove my helmet, skull cap, ear buds, and sunglasses, etc its a pain in the butt.

 

[Treo]

I know as soon as a cop talks to you that you can be considered "detained" so I just stood there.

This is incorrect and very important. If you do not establish the nature of the contact immediately it will generally assumed to be consensual

I saw him standing about 10 feet from me, with his hand on his weapon, and heard him say something. I just couldn't hear what with my helmet on. I asked him if he was talking to me?

"Officer, is there something I can help you with"? This will establish the type of contact immediately. The cop tells you what's up and you proceed from there. If you don't establish that is isn't a consenual stop they can hold you there forever and say you were talking to them of your own free will. They can only detain you for a brief time (about a half hour) w/out a good cause

Finally he said "were you going to tell me anything"? I said no.

Cop's sitting there w/ his hand on his gun? Yeah, I'd call that an official contact. "Officer IAW Nebraska State Law I am required to inform you that I have an Iowa CHP and am armed." You have complied w/ the letter of the law and taken away his reason to detain you.

Then it got serious. He said "in Nebraska you have to inform me if you are carrying". I told him I was from Iowa and there we aren't required to tell anybody anything. So then he goes on to tell me that I have to inform law enforcement or emergency personell I'm carrying even if it's a chance encounter in a convienence store. I told him that doesn't make any sense to me and asked him if he's driving down the road going south and I'm driving north do I got to turn around and run him down to tell him I'm carrying? He then went on to tell me about some guy who proactively went up to him, showed him his permit, and he confiscated the guys gun anyway and still hasn't given it back. Well about this time I'm getting pissed off with the veiled threat to take my gun and all so I pulled my permit to carry and gave it to him and said I still don't think he's got it right that I have to find him as soon as I get to town so I can tell him I'm in town and I'm carrying.

The side of the road is never the place to argue the law w/a cop. "Officer am I free to go? If you areYou do immediately. "Thank you officer have a good day" Not on more word.

If you aren't "Officer I have nothing to say and I'd like to speak to a lawyer." Or you could ask why he's detaining you they can't just hold you because they want to.

This whole situation could have, and should have, been avoided.

Yup, sure could of by you. There is a difference between asserting your rights and starting a pissing contest.

There's a book by a guy named "Boston T. Party" called "You And The Police. you might want to read it.

 

[Wyldekard]

Everybody can handle events that happen to them in any manner they decide because so far this is supposed to be a free country. It the seems the majority that have responded so far have, at the same time, missed the point and proved the point. The legal system of the United States is founded on the principal of innocent until proven guilty. The Constitution of the United States is supposed to be the law of the land. If you want to know what happens when those two concepts are surrendered, simply look at what is going on in the world you live in. People are jailed for as long as they feel like it in countries like Italy for example. People are being killed in the streets in other countries for no good reason at all. Nobody is going to suddenly take everything away from us in this country, but they will take away little bits and pieces at a time until you wake up in jail one day with no way out or dead in your bed with no repercussions to the person who did it because some politicians got a messed up law passed. Part of it can already happen here. Check the defense appropriations bill of 2012 that just got signed into law. The law is there, you just got to hope no president ever uses it against you. Like I said, you loose a little bit at a time. It's hardly even noticible until its all gone.

It should not make any difference if my intent was to rob the place or not. As long as I didn't do it, it used to be I had to be left alone. Look at the law on the books in Nebraska. It states an "official" stop. Walking into a store where a cop is BSing with patrons does not meet the burden of the law. everyone in the place was fine with my walking in with a helmet on. No one was alarmed or even apprehensive when I walked past all of them and went to the coolers at the back of the store. They did what I did which was look each other in the eye and nod. The clerk even said hello when I walked in as is good business practice. When I walked back to the counter everyone was scared. I didn't cause that to happen, the cop did. All I did was pay for my soda and leave. There was no implied threat in my demeaner. Remember "innocent until proven guilty". The cop had no business following me out of the store and try to be sneaky about stopping me with a question. If he had "Hey, I'm officer XYZ of the Tekehma police department and I need you to remain still and answer a question", I would have immediately informed him I was carrying as a matter of courtesy. Asking me if I'm going to Sturgis does not make it an official stop that requires courtesy. It makes it a guy in uniform starting a conversation, regardless of the fact I know it can be construed to be a detention later on. Most people don't know that.

Was that gas station robbed the week before? I don't know, I wasn't there. That makes me innocent of the crime if it was. Was I going to rob the next gas station down the street? The cop was would have been performing his job as he should if he quit BSing on the taxpayers dime and followed me to find out. Remember I'm supposed to be innocent until proven guilty by facts, not assumptions or guesses because I didn't take off my helmet to go into the store (on a side note, I hate that damn helmet and don't wear it in Iowa, but it's the law in Nebraska and I follow the actual laws of the place I'm in. However I will not follow made up ones).

I swore an oath of service many, many years ago. I swore to defend my country from all enemies, both foreign and domestic. That is the first part. It's first because it supercedes the remaining parts due to the fact that those named people could be the enemy. While my enlistment had a time limit, the oath did not.

It alls boils down to this. The cop engineered everything from scaring the crap out of those people to harrassing me (and yes I consider it that because he does not know the law and therefore does not have the authority he wrongly assumed). You can give up your rights if you want to because you can still ride the backs of those of us who won't. If you don't wake up to what you are giving up, eventually those of us who want our country to remain strong and true to the founding fundamentals and simple right and wrong will be gone. We'll die off, be killed, or locked away with no legal options or rights.

When you wake up one morning after you've been victomized by someone in a so called position of authoriy and you wonder what the hell happened to this country, all you have to do is look in the mirror and remember all those times you gave up a little bit that you never got back.

As for me, I will continue to stand up for what I think is right regardless of what the other guy is wearing.

 

[NavyLCDR]

What do you do when the local LEO doesn't know the law?

Welcome to the forum! Very sorry to hear about your hassle. To answer your question: I attempt to make every effort possible to know the firearms laws for wherever I am going, and make every attempt to abide by them. I don't concern myself with what a police officer might think or how they might react to my lawful behavior, I simply do everything possible to ensure my behavior is lawful.

Treo posted just about everything in post #8 that I was going to post. It is very important at the very beginning of a LEO encounter such as this to establish that you are being detained by asking the question, "Am I free to leave?" and if the answer is yes, "Thank you, officer, I will be on my way now."

If something like this goes to court, the first question that will have to be determined is if you were detained, or if the encounter was voluntary. If the encounter is determined to be voluntary, then everything that happens after that is pretty much a moot point, because you have waived your rights. Asking the question and getting the officer to tell you that you are being detained answers the first question, and then the burden falls upon the officer to prove that he had reasonable suspicion under which to detain you. No reasonable suspicion for the initial detainment - no case. This is actually how most people who commit real crimes get their charges dismissed.

Anyway, sorry you had to deal with an ignorant cop. Don't let that change how you behave (fear of harassment) and try to remember that the ignorant or power hungry cop is in the vast minority of all police officers out there....however because they do exist, we must always exercise our rights immediately when dealing with police because we don't know if the officer that is approaching us is one of the 99% good ones, or one of the 1% of bad ones.

 

[Treo]

If I were in this particular situation there are a couple of things I would have done differently.

First, knowing Nebraska isn’t a very gun friendly state, I’d conceal better. Say what you will it’s easier to avoid the hassle than deal with it. I might have even gone so far as to find another quickie mart if I noticed a cop car in the parking lot of that one.

I may or may not have removed my helmet. I don’t think that was the issue but I might have done it just for GP.

Ok, I’m in, I’m out, I have my soda and my beef jerky. As I get on the bike I notice the cop hand on gun giving me the stink eye. And the flow chart starts.


Me: “Good afternoon officer is there something I can help you with?”

It’s only going to go one of two ways

Officer: (because I concealed better) “No not at all”

Me: “Thank you officer have a nice day” As I get on the bike and leave
He just told me there’s nothing I can help him with, a reasonable person would assume I am free to go.

Or

Me: “Good afternoon officer is there something I can help you with?”

Officer (because you didn’t): Is that gun under your jacket/vest/ wife beater?

Me: “Officer IAW Nebraska law I am required to inform you I hold an Iowa CHP and am armed. Am I free to go?”

It’s only going to go one of two ways

Officer: “Yes you are.”

Me: “Thank you officer have a nice day” As I get on the bike and leave

Or

Officer: “No you are not” At this point no reasonable person would assume this was a consensual stop and the cop now has to have reasonable suspicion based on clearly articuable facts that you have or are about to commit a crime to detain you for any length of time. It is very likely at this point he is going to tell you why you are not free to leave, most likely because he wants to see the permit which is a reasonable request.

In the OP the cop calmed down as soon as he saw the permit, at this point he has no legitimate reason to detain you. So, you show him the required documentation and leave immediately.

You are free to B*tch about how I would handle it as you see fit but the fact remains I ain't the one posting "Got My Chops Busted By A Cop" threads on usacarry am I?

 

[Keykutter]

Black and white is soooooo easy from behind a keyboard!

KK

 

[Wyldekard]

Black and white is soooooo easy from behind a keyboard!

KK

Excellant point Keykutter and well said!

 

[Treo]

Treo’s rules for dealing with cops

1. People have gone to jail for being in the wrong place, at the wrong time and fitting a general description.

2. If you talk to a police officer long enough you will say something that can be used against you.

If a police officer stops you he holds all the cards. He knows why he stopped you. He knows what he suspects you of. And he is under no obligation to share any of that information W/you.

This is a perfect time to calmly and firmly assert your rights

if I were stopped on the street and questioned by a police officer the very first words out of my mouth would be "Officer am I free to leave." This question establishes the status of the contact immediately, and tells you exactly how to proceed. If you are told you are free to go do so immediately, Thank you officer have a good day. Do not say another word.

If the officer tells you, you are not free to go you can rest assured that he suspects you of something and is looking for probable cause to make an arrest. This also establishes the contact as official, I would hand him my ID & CHP immediately (you’re not sitting in a car he's going to pat you down)

If you are being detained the less you say the better, if the officer has probable cause he's going to arrest you no matter what you say. If he doesn't the easiest way for him to get it is for you to open your mouth. If asked where my weapon is I would answer directly and refuse comment on all other questions. "Officer I do not wish to make a statement or answer questions without my lawyer present" He can't keep you there forever & if he had PC you'd already be in handcuffs. No matter what he asks you (exception questions directly related to where your firearm is) ask to speak to your lawyer before answering the question.

 

[Wyldekard]

Jeez more wisdom from the "book of lawyer". Treo, Mr. Keyboard Thug, why don't you scan the page of this book you're so enamored with that states in plain english that this lawyer claims that what he wrote covers all instances in all areas of the United States at all times and then upload it here? I'd also like to see another page scanned and posted. The page where he specifically says you, the purchaser of this book, in every instance imagineable, and every geographic location in the continental United States and all its territories, are far to stupid to speak any words to a LEO other than exactly what I tell you to parrot back in this book. How soon can we expect to see this??

 

[Deserteagle]

Anyway, sorry you had to deal with an ignorant cop.

This LEO correctly told him that Nebraska is a must-inform state. Nothing ignorant about that. (Unless Nebraska is not a must-inform state)

 

[Treo]

This LEO correctly told him that Nebraska is a must-inform state. Nothing ignorant about that. (Unless Nebraska is not a must-inform state)

Go back and read the OP. Assuming it's true the cop said

So then he goes on to tell me that I have to inform law enforcement or emergency personell I'm carrying even if it's a chance encounter in a convienence store.

IOW the OP claims the cop told him that if he walked into a Quickie Mart and there was a cop there he was to march straight up to the cop and hand him the permit. How is that IAW Nebraska law?

 

[NavyLCDR]

This LEO correctly told him that Nebraska is a must-inform state. Nothing ignorant about that. (Unless Nebraska is not a must-inform state)

Here is the Nebraska requirement from:
Link Removed

019.02 A permit holder carrying a concealed handgun who is officially contacted by any peace officer or emergency services personnel must immediately inform the peace officer or emergency service personnel of the concealed handgun unless physically unable to do so.

So, at what point did the contact with the police officer in the OP go from "social" to "official". What was the basis for the "official" contact made by the police officer? He sees a leather strap under the coat of a man wearing motorcycle protective gear who happens to be riding a motorcycle at the time? That is REALLY suspicious of a crime in progress meeting the requirements for a Terry Stop? Really?

Did the OP do ANYTHING that was worthy of suspicion that a crime was about to be committed, ESPECIALLY AFTER he purchased a drink and left the premises and was preparing to drive off? IF the officer felt there was suspicion of a robbery about to be committed, why did he wait until AFTER the OP made a lawful purchase, and was out at his motorcycle preparing to leave WITHOUT INCIDENT!?!

Sorry, I stand by my judgment: ignorant cop who might have been improperly trained, forgot his training, didn't understand his training regarding the requirements for a Terry Stop type detainment, which is when notification is required in Nebraska OR maybe he was just power hungry and gets off on using his badge to harass law abiding citizens belonging to a certain group of people that he might have predjudices against.

 

[Nightmare45]

Simple rule is most cops in most states do not know carry laws, couple of exceptions AZ and NM. Speaking of AZ the statement a lot of guys in uniform are being shot is incorrect I have a second home in AZ and the officers are quite familiar with open constitional carry. Happy New Year.

 

[Wyldekard]

Speaking of AZ the statement a lot of guys in uniform are being shot is incorrect I have a second home in AZ and the officers are quite familiar with open constitional carry. Happy New Year.

Just want to clarify. That is a direct quote from the cop, not any statement that I made. I've only been to Arizona once and it was a nice experience. In context of the situation/conversation, by his demeaner and tone of voice, I took it as a lame apology or weak excuse for giving me a hassle in the first place.