reloading for your carry?

[walkthewalk]

i have yet to attempt to reload my own ammo but i think it would be a smarter and most cost efficient if i did.
Does anyone who loads notice a difference with performance when reloading their own and would you advise reloading for your carry weapon or just buy factory ammo?
thanks for any feedback

 

[Christopher Caldwell]

I use only store bought defensive carry type ammo while carrying. I do reload for practice only. My reason is simple. If and when that day comes and you have to use your weapon you better be prepared for a court battle. And I don't want no attorney accusing me of making deadlier ammo. I read a good book on the subject and would recommend it to anybody that is carrying or plans to carry its Gun Digest Book of Concealed Carry by Massad Ayoob.

 

[NavyLCDR]

This question gets asked about once a month on this forum. You will get one group of people who will tell you not to carry reloaded ammo because the prosecution could use it against you in a self defense case (even though there has never been a case of that happeneing, yet), and another group of people who will tell you that it really doesn't matter. Then the two groups of people are going to "discuss" it with each back and forth for pages of posts until we get distracted by another question such as if you tell the police officer about your gun during a traffic stop or if you carry openly or concealed.

If you are good at it, you can reload ammo that will be more accurate and just as reliable (if not more reliable) than factory ammo. Do championship bench shooters use factory ammo in competition? No.

 

[Verdict]

You will indeed likely get both of those sides answering you I'll sum up saying that while I cannot think of a case of a reload issue causing a righteous defense shooting to be convicted for the act I can tell you that the potential savings in ammo cost MIGHT wind up costing exponentially more in attorney fees IF you were to wind up in such a situation and may bite you in the ass. Consider if you will how events might have been drastically changed in outcome if Mr. Zimmerman had been using reloaded ammo especially if the prosecution had his remaining ammo tested and was found to be loaded at a faster or slower terminal velocity than is industry standard. In the case of faster he may have been accused of intentionally loading hot so as to be more likely to be lethal to any person whom he chose to shoot or inversely if slower of intending to cause increased pain and suffering to a target prior to a potential death. In closing this thought, can you carry reloaded ammo for defense, yes. However whether you do so or not needs to carefully weigh the potential savings vs the potential detrimental effects to the finances and indeed future of yourself and your family. In my personal choice I elect to do portions of my recreational and practice shooting with reloads to save there as paper and steel targets are highly unlikely to have their family members bring a wrongful death suit against me, but for carry its factory ammo only for me and mine. Good luck in the making of this and many other choices for yourself.

Jonathan

~Shoot straight and strike only your target, no panic fire!

 

[BC1]

Mas Ayoob wrote an interesting article about his involvement with a case where someone used reloads in self-defense. It does happen, contrary to those who say it never happens. NH v. Kennedy, NJ V. Bias, TN v. Barnes to name a few.
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Handloaded Ammunition: Not a Good Idea for Concealed Carry/Self Defense
Cases Where Handloads Caused Problems in Court by Mas Ayoob

 

[Warbirds]

Bench shooters reload to get precise consistency between rounds. You are talking about reloading to save on cost. Reloading for a pistol round isn't as technical.

I stick with off the shelf self defense rounds because I don't have the means to test my rounds for effectiveness like a company is able to do with what they manufacture. I practice with similar weight and velocity non self defense rounds because they aren't going to be much different from more expensive self defense rounds.

It isn't worth my time to argue what a prosecutor may or may not do, until there is some sort of court precedent. And Utah is very self defense friendly, so in not worried.

Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk

 

[NavyLCDR]

Mas Ayoob wrote an interesting article about his involvement with a case where someone used reloads in self-defense. It does happen, contrary to those who say it never happens. NH v. Kennedy, NJ V. Bias, TN v. Barnes to name a few.
.
Handloaded Ammunition: Not a Good Idea for Concealed Carry/Self Defense
Cases Where Handloads Caused Problems in Court by Mas Ayoob

And the prosecution used the fact that Harold Fish was using hollow point ammunition as part of their case to convict him (which they initially did convict him.) So, equally, does that mean nobody should take the chance of using hollow points for self defense? After all, hollow point ammunition is so deadly, not even the US Military uses it to fight in combat with.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Mas Ayoob wrote an interesting article about his involvement with a case where someone used reloads in self-defense. It does happen, contrary to those who say it never happens. NH v. Kennedy, NJ V. Bias, TN v. Barnes to name a few..Handloaded Ammunition: Not a Good Idea for Concealed Carry/Self DefenseCases Where Handloads Caused Problems in Court by Mas Ayoob

Mas Ayoob also writes and shows in video that people carrying guns should inform police up front during a traffic stop of their permit and that they are carrying a gun. Do you also subscribe to that advice by the Great Ayoob?

 

[Andrew49417]

I use Hornady Z-Max. Nothing like a little Zombie paranoia thrown in with that prosecution.

 

[Andrew49417]

George Zimmerman used hollow points. I don't recall it being a big deal in the trial, but of course the Media had a field day with it. Ya know... Imploding bullets and all. Dianne Feinstein said it herself.

 

[JCliff]

Mas Ayoob also writes and shows in video that people carrying guns should inform police up front during a traffic stop of their permit and that they are carrying a gun. Do you also subscribe to that advice by the Great Ayoob?

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Separate issue, not germane to thread topic. Also, just for the sake of argument, even if we stipulate that Mr. Ayoob is mistaken in his position regarding informing police of being armed, it does not follow that he is mistaken in his position vis a vis handloads for self defense. On that issue, I think Mr Ayoob's reasoning is quite sound (and the references and facts in actual cases buttresses his argument very well). The main point is this: Anytime you are involved in a shooting, expect serious legal troubles. Regardless of how righteous your shooting may have been, expect a serious attempt to find you guilty of anything from murder to manslaughter to aggravated assault with a deadly weapon. Expect a civil liabilities suit. Mr. Ayoob's point, that using handloads for self defense can introduce an element of uncertainty at trial, with which the prosecution will attempt to hammer your case to death with, is valid. The prosecution will also use the fact that you used hollow points against you if they can. That you trained with your firearm. That you are a member of the NRA (or insert your 2A rights group here). The fact that you used a firearm to defend yourself is repugnant to many of them, and they will try to use that against you as well. Some places in our country are much worse about this than others, but you're not immune to prosecution anywhere. Using factory ammo for self defense just takes one of those potential hammers away from the prosecution.
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Having said that, as I have said before, I would not hesitate to use handloads/reloads for self defense if that was all I had available. I can also imagine situations where a handload might actually be beneficial to your defense, say, downloading a .44 special load to be used in the home with a .44 magnum pistol because that's all you have and you're concerned about over-penetration. The difference here (and I consider it substantial) is that Mr. Ayoob has specific cases to cite, I have only conception and conjecture. Unless we're talking about hunting, I personally use reloads/handloads only at the range.

 

[BC1]

Mas Ayoob also writes and shows in video that people carrying guns should inform police up front during a traffic stop of their permit and that they are carrying a gun. Do you also subscribe to that advice by the Great Ayoob?

No, I don't agree with him on notifying. Not unless asked specifically.

 

[NavyLCDR]

List of things the prosecution "can" use against you; therefore the concealed carrier should not do, if we apply the same standard:


1. Don't use any caliber larger than your local police force/sheriff's office. If 9mm is good enough for them, than why do you need a .45 - or the especially evil 10mm? Harold Fish's choice of 10mm caliber was used against him.

2. Already mentioned hollow points.

3. Don't use Full Metal Jacket either. You know it is designed to penetrate, so you must be looking to penetrate things like car doors, heavy clothing, and body armor if you use Full Metal Jacket ammunition. I'm sure the prosecution would probably show scenes from the movie "Full Metal Jacket" to the jury as well, to show what inspired you to carry it.

4. If you practice often, especially if you use human silhouette shaped targets, then you are obsessed with being able to kill a human as effectively as possible. Therefore, it is better to only practice with more traditional, round bullseye targets, and would be best not to practice at all.

5. You should not practice the speed and effectiveness of your draw. You are obsessed with being able to use the "element of surprise" to kill with.

6. You should not clean your gun regularly because it would indicate an obsession.

7. Don't do anything to your gun that enhances performance, especially night sights becuse now you are making preparations to be able to kill under the cover of darkness.

8. It is best if you let the bad guy shoot at you first - it removes doubt as to the intentions of your victim. In fact, you should not even draw your firearm first until they shoot at you first, because if you draw first before they shoot at you the prosecution could say that your victim was only defending themselves against your assault.

9. We won't even mention drinking any amount of alcohol when carrying a firearm. Even though you would be perfectly legal to have 1 beer with dinner and walk out and drive away in your car, the prosecution will say you were too inebriated to make a rational decision if you have a drop of alcohol in your system.


10. Don't possess more than 1 magazine worth of ammunition. PERIOD. My god, do NOT carry more than 1 magazine whatever you do. You will be shown to be a potential mass murderer hoarding ammunition for a killing spree if you do.

11. As mentioned earlier there is the Zombie obsession factor as well. It seems like as near perfect self defense ammunition is this:
Link Removed

The Critical Defense® Lite™ 38 Special load is an effective, reduced recoil option for ANY shooter looking to minimize the felt recoil of their lightweight, compact personal protection revolver.

Designed with the same proven components as our Critical Defense® line of ammunition, this offering features a 90 grain FTX® bullet with a unique PINK Flex Tip®! The pink bullet tips and pink ribbon packaging help signify our desire to share in the fight against breast cancer. A portion of the proceeds from the sale of Critical Defense® Lite™ will go to help fund breast cancer research.

It would take a hell of a good prosecutor to argue against pink, flexible tipped bullets in pink ribbon packaging. You might even be able to get away with claiming that you were only buying 100s of rounds of this ammo in order to support breast cancer research! I would think that only using a pink gun to match your pink ammo might be beneficial as well.