PPITH Lesson 3

[RRobaldo]

Ok, I know some of you are, but not ALL of you are Lawyers or LEO's.

That being the case, when you teach a PPITH class, what are you guys doing about Lesson III "Firearms and the Law"?
I'm having difficulty finding a LEO or Lawyer who would be willing to be a "Guest Speaker" for that section of the class.

 

[Bttbbob]

Cut a deal with a local attorney for free class time. Give LEO a deal for their friends or family for their time.

 

[10-32 Solutions]

What LEO has insurance coverage to address his offduty comments on legal matters in your class? Prior to becoming an instructor, I wouldn't have touched that with any length pole either.

 

[wolf_fire]

Ok, I know some of you are, but not ALL of you are Lawyers or LEO's.

That being the case, when you teach a PPITH class, what are you guys doing about Lesson III "Firearms and the Law"?
I'm having difficulty finding a LEO or Lawyer who would be willing to be a "Guest Speaker" for that section of the class.

Most LEO's will not offer legal advice, especially formally in a class. If what he/she says gets misconstrued or he/she mispeaks, and someone was recording, it can/will be used against him.

Most lawyers don't give legal advice away for free.... that's like a grocery store giving away free food.

 

[JVSfirearmstraining]

In our instructor class, the TC advised to use a CCHP instructor for the legal part. In NC you have to pass the legal portion of the CCHP through the NC Justice Academy. He stated that this provides the legal portion. You have to be an NRA instructor or an LEO instructor to teach the CCHP class in NC.

 

[J.powers]

Ok, I know some of you are, but not ALL of you are Lawyers or LEO's.

That being the case, when you teach a PPITH class, what are you guys doing about Lesson III "Firearms and the Law"?
I'm having difficulty finding a LEO or Lawyer who would be willing to be a "Guest Speaker" for that section of the class.

Given the amount of incorrect information and bad advice that I have received from law enforcement, I cannot imagine seeking help on this topic from anyone other than a board-certified criminal defense attorney. Needless to say, you won't be able to employ their services in exchange for a little free training. Considering the difference between facing a homicide charge and justifiable self-defense, it is a false economy to employ anyone other than a board certified attorney.

Although I realize that you are only following the NRA curriculum, this appears to be another instance of an NRA certified instructor that is not qualified to teach the courses he is trying to conduct. If you cannot run the course yourself, I don't see any reason that you should be offering this course to the public.

 

[Rickard]

Although I realize that you are only following the NRA curriculum, this appears to be another instance of an NRA certified instructor that is not qualified to teach the courses he is trying to conduct. If you cannot run the course yourself, I don't see any reason that you should be offering this course to the public.

I agree with your comment about using a criminal defense attorney, but you are off base about the instructor not being capable of teaching the class.

There is a requirement from the NRA that this portion of the course be taught by an attorney or a certified Law Enforcement professional. My experience with law enforcement personnel is that they will need a lot of training / coaching before they are capable of teaching this portion of the course. My experience with attorneys is that they can talk, but rarely can they teach. Again, they will need coaching. There are not any good options that I have found except to find an instructor that is also a law enforcement officer and help them put together a curriculum that is of benefit to the students.

Rick

 

[J.powers]

I agree with your comment about using a criminal defense attorney, but you are off base about the instructor not being capable of teaching the class.

There is a requirement from the NRA that this portion of the course be taught by an attorney or a certified Law Enforcement professional. My experience with law enforcement personnel is that they will need a lot of training / coaching before they are capable of teaching this portion of the course. My experience with attorneys is that they can talk, but rarely can they teach. Again, they will need coaching. There are not any good options that I have found except to find an instructor that is also a law enforcement officer and help them put together a curriculum that is of benefit to the students.

Rick

Rick, surely you are joking. Teaching is the heart of what a criminal defense attorney does. A skilled trial lawyer must teach the jury about his view of the facts and law regarding his case. I know one of the best defense attorneys in Texas and I can assure you that he is a superb teacher. As for law enforcement types, the things that I have seen from them are appalling. If I had a nickel for every time a cop told me that if I shot someone outside of my to drag them inside my home, I would be the richest woman in Texas.

It doesn't matter to me what the NRA requires. If you can't teach the class, don't offer your training to the public for a fee. You can teach people to shoot a handgun and leave it to them to find a lawyer that can explain to them the law of self defense.

 

[telpinaro]

Check out Armed Citizens Legal Defense Network. They have a list of self-defense friendly lawyers, and the ones in your area might have some ideas for you. Doesn't hurt to ask, at any rate. A training group here has a lawyer friend who offers "Law of the Gun" classes through them... Hope I get to take it soon!

 

[BC1]

I pay an attorney to teach that section. I'm not comfortable using a LEO. Many have shown they don't know the law at all. It's costly but you'll get a good reputation for going the extra.

 

[J.powers]

I pay an attorney to teach that section. I'm not comfortable using a LEO. Many have shown they don't know the law at all. It's costly but you'll get a good reputation for going the extra.

Thank you for doing the job right. I hope your efforts are rewarded. As I mentioned, the total lack of knowledge in the LEO community is appalling. The 5,000 hours or so required to earn a law degree and a bar card versus a couple of weeks in the police academy certainly make for a stark contrast in knowledge and ability.

 

[10-32 Solutions]

Thank you for doing the job right. I hope your efforts are rewarded. As I mentioned, the total lack of knowledge in the LEO community is appalling. The 5,000 hours or so required to earn a law degree and a bar card versus a couple of weeks in the police academy certainly make for a stark contrast in knowledge and ability.

I think everyone should be careful not to generalize. There are many LEO's that are professionals at what they do, many academies are way longer in length than 2 weeks (My state is going from 520 to 700 hours. That's over 17 weeks.), there are attorneys that have no clue about criminal law because they specialize in other law areas, and I'm sure we can point out people that took an 8-hour course that have an instructor label that don't have a clue. There are unqualified people in every field, and there are very qualified people that excel in every field.

 

[BC1]

I think everyone should be careful not to generalize. There are many LEO's that are professionals at what they do, many academies are way longer in length than 2 weeks (My state is going from 520 to 700 hours. That's over 17 weeks.), there are attorneys that have no clue about criminal law because they specialize in other law areas, and I'm sure we can point out people that took an 8-hour course that have an instructor label that don't have a clue. There are unqualified people in every field, and there are very qualified people that excel in every field.

Use only a criminal defense attorney or a former prosecutor. The "jack of all trades" attorney is a poor choice.

 

[J.powers]

I think everyone should be careful not to generalize. There are many LEO's that are professionals at what they do, many academies are way longer in length than 2 weeks (My state is going from 520 to 700 hours. That's over 17 weeks.), there are attorneys that have no clue about criminal law because they specialize in other law areas, and I'm sure we can point out people that took an 8-hour course that have an instructor label that don't have a clue. There are unqualified people in every field, and there are very qualified people that excel in every field.

If you had read the thread from the beginning, you would see that my reference was to a board certified criminal defense attorney. In subsequent reply, I did not bother to type out "board certified criminal defense attorney". However, I can see now that I should not have become lazy.

As for generalizing, I will throw caution to the wind and say that a cop that has had 520 hours of training is not match for an attorney that spent about 5,000 hours of study to earn his degree and bar card. In addition, much of an attorney's studies were under the guidance of a nationally prominent legal scholar ( at least if he attended the same university that I did) rather than a training sargeant.

 

[J.powers]

Use only a criminal defense attorney or a former prosecutor. The "jack of all trades" attorney is a poor choice.

I really regret being lazy and failing to type out "board certified criminal defense attorney" every time I referenced "attorney". By all means use a specialist and don't get lazy like I did.

 

[Old Blue2]

Which ever way you go, attorney or LEO, you must vet them first. Are they a good speaker and fire arms friendly? Avoid either if they make comments like, " there is a lawyer attached to every bullet, if you shoot someone you will always be sued and lose your home", ect. A good way to preview a potential speaker for lesson III of the PPITH class is arrange for the person to come to a civic group you are in or your local Neighborhood Watch association and talk about using deadly force and self defense or another appropriate self defense topic. A good place to look for a friendly "legal speaker" is the closest police academy. Ask for the contact info for those who are credentialed (and vetted) to teach the legal portion at the local Police Academy. You will probably get a list of several people both attorneys and LEO's. I did this & got a wonderful speaker who is a Highway Patrol Sergeant. He is very personable, witty, and a supporter of CCW. He can't accept payment for the teaching he does for me but he can accept a gift certificate for two to his wife's favorite fancy restaurant. That works for both of us and he has become a good friend. Best Wishes!

Bruce Luedeman
Safe Shoot » Professional Firearms Training
NRA TC

 

[F.A.S.T. L.L.C]

I pay $ a LEO to do mine. I have 3 that are on the list in case one works the day of my class I have a backup or two.