Posted signs and force of law question

[Watsonr6]

Reading the sticky post in this forum, I see that it says businesses with posted no firearms signs do not carry the force of law misdemeanor penalty (unless you are asked to leave and refuse). Can someone point me someplace official that confirms this? Reading the carry law, I don't see this stated anywhere. Posted areas are simply listed with the other areas carrying is not permitted (schools, Federal buildings, etc...).

Thanks

 

[2Adefender]

Laws are prohibitive in nature, so if they don't say you can't then you can.

 

[onebadelf]

Check your local laws. From what I understand, it depends on where you live.

 

[joatesiii]

Reading the sticky post in this forum, I see that it says businesses with posted no firearms signs do not carry the force of law misdemeanor penalty (unless you are asked to leave and refuse). Can someone point me someplace official that confirms this? Reading the carry law, I don't see this stated anywhere. Posted areas are simply listed with the other areas carrying is not permitted (schools, Federal buildings, etc...).

Thanks

I am quite sure that it depends upon the state...in Oklahoma, if a place is posted, they do not have to ask you to leave, they can simply call law enforcement because of non-compliance with their posting...

 

[Purple]

It depends on what state you live in whether their is a law on the books you need to abide by. Start looking at the laws of your state. They are usually on-line.

 

[Almost_Blameless]

in Indiana you can be charged with criminal tresspass if you don't abide with the signage..... other states, as I understand it, the signs have NO force of law.... so you really need to check the area you live in...

 

[John Theriot]

What state are you from?

 

[dakotaracing]

In Georgia, they can ask you to leave. That's it.

 

[Watsonr6]

What state are you from?

Sorry. I posted in the WV Concealed Carry Permit Information forum but didn't account for anyone using the recent posts option. So, I live in WV. I've tried various searches but I cannot find anything to support the statement in the "WV Open and Concealed Carry Information" sticky to support the statement that signage does not carry the weight of law.

Here is the portion from the sticky, but this is not quoted from the law I read online. Everything from the word "However" to the end does not exist in anything I read.

Wherever signs are posted indicating weapon restrictions or where notice has been given by other means. (W.Va. Code § 61-7-14) However, a person is not subject to the misdemeanor penalty provided for a violation of any such restriction unless that person refuses to either leave or temporarily relinquish his or her weapon, upon being confronted about the violation.

 

[richardnorton]

Ok depends on the state, which you don't identify which state you are talking about. In the state of Texas the state law (in para 30.06) sets out exactly what, where and the size the signs must be. Now if the owner objects to you carring a firearm (if it is cancealed as the law states it will be, how would he know) and he asks you to leave and you refuse you can be placed in jail for trespass, but the owner has to call the Police and then ask you to leave in their presence and you have to refuse. But if you refuse with the proper signs posted you are in deep doodoo.

 

[DarrylHadfield]

Pretty much the same here in OH.

 

[wuzfuz]

If I run into a business that prohibits weapons, I have a supply of cards that let them know know how I feel about it, but I will respect their policy and take my money elsewhere.

 

[gejoslin]

Hope this helps.
West Virginia
Do “No Gun Signs” Have the Force of Law?
“
NO”

“Handgunlaw.us highly recommends that you not enter a place that is posted "No Firearms" no matter what
the state laws read/mean on signage. We recommend you print out the No Guns = No Money Cards and
give one to the owner of the establishment that has the signage." As responsible gun owners and upholders of
the 2nd Amendment we should also honor the rights of property owners to control their own property even if
we disagree with them.”

“No Firearm” signs in West Virginia have no force of law unless they are posted on property that is
specifically mentioned in State Law as being off limits to those with a Permit/License to Carry. If you are in
a place not specifically mentioned in the law that is posted and they ask you to leave, you must leave. If you
refuse to leave then you are breaking the law and can be charged. Even if the property is not posted and you
are asked to leave you must leave. Always be aware of the possibility that responding Police Officers who
may have been called without your knowledge and may not know the laws on trespass etc. could arrest you
even if you are within the law.
http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/westvirginia.pdf

 

[Andrew49417]

Concealed is concealed.

 

[anvil6]

It's in bits and pieces, as the link form handgunlaw.us to the CCW pamphlet 2012 is broken. I believe the following answers your question about WV law. Mind you, this IS ADDITION TO places off-limits by law, enumerated piecemeal elsewhere in the chapter.

West Virginia Code

From WV Code, Chapter 61:

§61-7-14. Right of certain persons to limit possession of firearms on premises.
Notwithstanding the provisions of this article, any owner, lessee or other person charged with the care, custody and control of real property may prohibit the carrying openly or concealed of any firearm or deadly weapon on property under his or her domain: Provided, That for purposes of this section "person" means an individual or any entity which may acquire title to real property.

Any person carrying or possessing a firearm or other deadly weapon on the property of another who refuses to temporarily relinquish possession of such firearm or other deadly weapon, upon being requested to do so, or to leave such premises, while in possession of such firearm or other deadly weapon, shall be guilty of a misdemeanor, and, upon conviction thereof, shall be fined not more than one thousand dollars or confined in the county jail not more than six months, or both: Provided, That the provisions of this section shall not apply to those persons set forth in subsections (3) through (6) of section six of this code while such persons are acting in an official capacity: Provided, however, That under no circumstances may any person possess or carry or cause the possession or carrying of any firearm or other deadly weapon on the premises of any primary or secondary educational facility in this state unless such person is a law-enforcement officer or he or she has the express written permission of the county school superintendent.

 

[ScottS]

Correct!

Check your local laws. From what I understand, it depends on where you live.

You are 100% spot on. For example here in Wisconsin, our first CCW involved defensive shooting tested this exact issue. An Aldi's store was improperly posted, with an undersized sign (state law requires a minimum size of 8 1/2" x 11") and in the in incorrect location of an INSIDE secondary vestibule door (state law requires outside entrance DOOR). Aldi's tried to prosecute but their case was thrown out due to not meeting the letter of the law. The State Atty General reaffirmed that had they properly posted the store they would have had the law behind them and the defensive shooter would have been in direct violation of his permit AND been trespassing. the story deepened when the shooting was found righteous, the local PD (city of Milwaukee) still refused (and still does) to return the permit holder's handgun, Aldi's lost massive amounts of income due to a CCW holders boycott leading to the closing of several stores and the eventual complete removal of their postings.

A note on the Milwaukee PD... The Chief of Police, Ed Flynn is anti Second Amendment, and testified this past week in front of congress demanding the ban on assault weapons and even lied outright in his statements. This has raised the ire of the conservatives in a liberal city.

 

[Watsonr6]

That's what I was looking for! What has worried me is that the law lists "anywhere a sign is posted..." with all of the places we know we definitely can't go, which seems to imply they are in the same category as schools and such.

 Court Houses.
 Family Law Masters Office.
 Magistrates Office.
 Primary and Secondary School Property including School buses.
 Any facility that is being used for a Primary or Secondary School Function while that function is
going on.
 Vocational Education Building
 Any where a sign is posted saying no Firearms Allowed. The signs do not have to be of any set size
or design.
 Regional jails, detention facilities or State Division of Corrections facilities and their grounds.
 Any property where firearms are prohibited by the owner or operator.

 

[rev. dave]

Wherever signs are posted indicating weapon restrictions or where notice has been given by other means. (W.Va. Code § 61-7-14) However, a person is not subject to the misdemeanor penalty provided for a violation of any such restriction unless that person refuses to either leave or temporarily relinquish his or her weapon, upon being confronted about the violation.

If that is the law, then THAT IS the law. Just be sure you're reading it on an official website, not somebody's interpretation of the law. Also, typically state law is considered to supersede any local laws - i.e. localities may not pass laws more restrictive than those passed by the state - but you'd want to check on that too as I can't 'speak for' WVa. AND, while state law will normally reign over local laws, there's nothing to stop a local LEO from arresting you anyway, just because. You'd win in court but you'd still have an arrest record unless you spent even more money to make sure it was cleaned up.

 

[anvil6]

"Forbiden Carry" sites not otherwise mentioned include those "Grandfathered" in WV: The cities of Charleston, Dunbar, Martinsburg and South Charleston ban carry on "city owned" property. Also carry is forbiden in the State Capitol Complex and Grounds (including their parking lots).

That's what I was looking for! What has worried me is that the law lists "anywhere a sign is posted..." with all of the places we know we definitely can't go, which seems to imply they are in the same category as schools and such.

 Court Houses.
 Family Law Masters Office.
 Magistrates Office.
 Primary and Secondary School Property including School buses.
 Any facility that is being used for a Primary or Secondary School Function while that function is
going on.
 Vocational Education Building
 Any where a sign is posted saying no Firearms Allowed. The signs do not have to be of any set size
or design.
 Regional jails, detention facilities or State Division of Corrections facilities and their grounds.
 Any property where firearms are prohibited by the owner or operator.

 

[anvil6]

"Forbiden Carry" sites not otherwise mentioned include those "Grandfathered" in WV: The cities of Charleston, Dunbar, Martinsburg and South Charleston ban carry on "city owned" property. Also carry is forbiden in the State Capitol Complex and Grounds (including their parking lots).

That's what I was looking for! What has worried me is that the law lists "anywhere a sign is posted..." with all of the places we know we definitely can't go, which seems to imply they are in the same category as schools and such.

 Court Houses.
 Family Law Masters Office.
 Magistrates Office.
 Primary and Secondary School Property including School buses.
 Any facility that is being used for a Primary or Secondary School Function while that function is
going on.
 Vocational Education Building
 Any where a sign is posted saying no Firearms Allowed. The signs do not have to be of any set size
or design.
 Regional jails, detention facilities or State Division of Corrections facilities and their grounds.
 Any property where firearms are prohibited by the owner or operator.