Non-US citizen carrying in VT


C

CristianMoffat

New member
Hi All

I am a British gun owner and after many enjoyable holidays in New England I am looking to purchase some land and a cabin in Vermont.

My questions are regarding the laws in VT, specifically:

- I understand that VT does not require carry permits - does anyone know if this automatic right to carry might extend to a non-US citizen/temporary resident?

- Are there any specific restrictions with firearms purchases in VT pertaining to non-citizens or residents?

I am aware of Brits who visit regularly on temporary visas, who have obtained CCW permits in states like Idaho who use permits but do not ask for citizenship as a mandatory part of the application criteria. I wonder if the super relaxed gun laws in VT and lack of carry permit means a free pass for me. Somehow I doubt it!

All of this is asked assuming full compliance with the local laws and a spotless personal background if checked.

Appreciate this is very left-field and it may be better to enquire directly with local counties, but just thought I would throw it out there to the knowledgable folks on here.

Cheers

Cris
 

Vermont doesn't have any law that address concealed carry at all so I would THINK that if you are legal to purchase or own in Vermont that you would be legal to carry.

That said, taking into account the severity of the consequences this is one of those times you need to sit down with a lawyer and get the law explained to you exactly
 
To CristianMoffat,
I don't know about the import laws concerning bringing firearms from Great Britain. I am sure it could be done, but it would probably be more complicated than it would be worth. To purchase a firearm in Vermont from a dealer you will need a government issued document that shows residency in Vermont. It does not have to be a driver's license or state issued ID card, I would suggest a hunting license because you are going to need one anyway. The Federal law exemption for you to purchase a firearm as a non-US citizen or as a non-permanent legal resident (with a green card) is 18 USC 922 (y)(2):

18 U.S. Code § 922 - Unlawful acts | LII / Legal Information Institute
(y) Provisions Relating to Aliens Admitted Under Nonimmigrant Visas.—
(1) Definitions.— In this subsection—
(A) the term “alien” has the same meaning as in section 101(a)(3) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1101 (a)(3)); and
(B) the term “nonimmigrant visa” has the same meaning as in section 101(a)(26) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1101 (a)(26)).
(2) Exceptions.— Subsections (d)(5)(B), (g)(5)(B), and (s)(3)(B)(v)(II) do not apply to any alien who has been lawfully admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa, if that alien is—
(A) admitted to the United States for lawful hunting or sporting purposes or is in possession of a hunting license or permit lawfully issued in the United States;
Click to expand...

There is nothing in Vermont law that I can see that would make it illegal to carry any firearm you have legally purchased.
 
I posted too quickly here. I have a story about the very topic being discussed, I just can't find it now!
I'm sorry. I should have had the article ready before I posted.
I'll keep looking for it though.
 
Eidolon said:
Vermont doesn't have any law that address concealed carry at all so I would THINK that if you are legal to purchase or own in Vermont that you would be legal to carry.

That said, taking into account the severity of the consequences this is one of those times you need to sit down with a lawyer and get the law explained to you exactly
Click to expand...

Thanks, I agree wholeheartedly and would consult a NRA sanctioned attorney first.
 
NavyLCDR said:
To CristianMoffat,
I don't know about the import laws concerning bringing firearms from Great Britain. I am sure it could be done, but it would probably be more complicated than it would be worth. To purchase a firearm in Vermont from a dealer you will need a government issued document that shows residency in Vermont. It does not have to be a driver's license or state issued ID card, I would suggest a hunting license because you are going to need one anyway. The Federal law exemption for you to purchase a firearm as a non-US citizen or as a non-permanent legal resident (with a green card) is 18 USC 922 (y)(2):

18 U.S. Code § 922 - Unlawful acts | LII / Legal Information Institute


There is nothing in Vermont law that I can see that would make it illegal to carry any firearm you have legally purchased.
Click to expand...

Many thanks NavyLCDR. Just to be clear I would not be importing any firearms with me into the country.

With respect to purchasing, I have read through the information provided by the ATF and Vermont state and I share your interpretation exactly.

I would satisfy the criteria for continuous residency (states typically ask for 90 days), and I can stay in VT for up to 6 months per visit on my visa. And, I would be applying for a hunting license in the first instance, and hunting is a justifiable reason for wanting to acquire a handgun in VT (and other states).

The ATF guidelines for FFL's has a specific section dealing with non-immigrant aliens wanting to purchase firearms. This states clearly that they should use the I-94 immigration reference from the visitor visa, as the purchaser will not have an Alien number (no green card) or SS number. Nor, presumably, would they possess a state issued DL or ID.

So, I believe could satisfy the federal and state criteria to purchase. Incidentally I have heard of one or two UK citizens who have obtained CCW permits via this route in Idaho and Wyoming.

With regards to VT law specifically - what I need to clarify at a local level is does my residency in VT confer the automatic right for me to carry my handgun concealed, even as a non-citizen, given that VT is one of the few states that does not issue permits. I think it would be an interesting conversation with an LEO if I could not produce a VT DL, ID, or CPL!
 
CristianMoffat said:
With regards to VT law specifically - what I need to clarify at a local level is does my residency in VT confer the automatic right for me to carry my handgun concealed, even as a non-citizen, given that VT is one of the few states that does not issue permits. I think it would be an interesting conversation with an LEO if I could not produce a VT DL, ID, or CPL!
Click to expand...

There is no residency requirement to carry a handgun concealed in Vermont.
 
NavyLCDR said:
There is no residency requirement to carry a handgun concealed in Vermont.
Click to expand...

Thanks, not for me to pass judgement but if only all the states were like VT!

Most of my friends and family live in Washington State, which for a mostly rough and rugged place in the PNW seems to be very restrictive on firearms.
 
CristianMoffat said:
Thanks, not for me to pass judgement but if only all the states were like VT!

Most of my friends and family live in Washington State, which for a mostly rough and rugged place in the PNW seems to be very restrictive on firearms.
Click to expand...

Just the opposite. I live in Washington state. Compared to most states we are very free regarding firearms, although, yes we are restrictive for the 18 to 20 year old group and I think non - US citizens, but I haven't looked at Alien firearm license requirements in a while.

Our freedom in Washington was eroded away this election with the passing of people's initiative 594, but that wasn't the legislature that did it, that was Bloomberg and Gates money.
 
NavyLCDR said:
Just the opposite. I live in Washington state. Compared to most states we are very free regarding firearms, although, yes we are restrictive for the 18 to 20 year old group and I think non - US citizens, but I haven't looked at Alien firearm license requirements in a while.

Our freedom in Washington was eroded away this election with the passing of people's initiative 594, but that wasn't the legislature that did it, that was Bloomberg and Gates money.
Click to expand...

Fair point - so it should be with so many great rural and forest areas to play in!

594 is a retrograde step and frankly I was surprised in passed in WA although sadly this seems to be the trend.

I also thought it strange that a non-US citizen cannot even handle a weapon in WA, it's a felony! That means I can't go hunting with my cousin using his rifles or I am breaking the law.

Go figure.
 
CristianMoffat said:
I also thought it strange that a non-US citizen cannot even handle a weapon in WA, it's a felony! That means I can't go hunting with my cousin using his rifles or I am breaking the law.

Go figure.
Click to expand...

Actually that isn't true:

RCW 9.41.175
Alien possession of firearms—Possession without license—Conditions.

(1) A nonimmigrant alien, who is not a resident of Washington or a citizen of Canada, may carry or possess any firearm without having first obtained an alien firearm license if the nonimmigrant alien possesses:
(a) A valid passport and visa showing he or she is in the country legally;
(b) If required under federal law, an approved United States department of justice ATF-6 NIA application and permit for temporary importation of firearms and ammunition by nonimmigrant aliens; and
(c)(i) A valid hunting license issued by a state or territory of the United States; or
(ii) An invitation to participate in a trade show or sport shooting event being conducted in this state, another state, or another country that is contiguous with this state.
(2) A citizen of Canada may carry or possess any firearm so long as he or she possesses:
(a) Valid documentation as required for entry into the United States;
(b) If required under federal law, an approved United States department of justice ATF-6 NIA application and permit for temporary importation of firearms and ammunition by nonimmigrant aliens; and
(c)(i) A valid hunting license issued by a state or territory of the United States; or
(ii) An invitation to participate in a trade show or sport shooting event being conducted in this state, another state, or another country that is contiguous with this state.
(3) For purposes of subsections (1) and (2) of this section, the firearms may only be possessed for the purpose of using them in the hunting of game while such persons are in the act of hunting, or while on a hunting trip, or while such persons are competing in a bona fide trap or skeet shoot or any other organized contest where rifles, pistols, or shotguns are used. Nothing in this section shall be construed to allow aliens to hunt or fish in this state without first having obtained a regular hunting or fishing license.
Click to expand...

and then I-594 did add the additional requirement that you can only borrow and possess the rifle without a background check at the actual place where hunting is legal.
 
CristianMoffat said:
Hi All

I am a British gun owner and after many enjoyable holidays in New England I am looking to purchase some land and a cabin in Vermont.

My questions are regarding the laws in VT, specifically:

- I understand that VT does not require carry permits - does anyone know if this automatic right to carry might extend to a non-US citizen/temporary resident?

- Are there any specific restrictions with firearms purchases in VT pertaining to non-citizens or residents?

I am aware of Brits who visit regularly on temporary visas, who have obtained CCW permits in states like Idaho who use permits but do not ask for citizenship as a mandatory part of the application criteria. I wonder if the super relaxed gun laws in VT and lack of carry permit means a free pass for me. Somehow I doubt it!

All of this is asked assuming full compliance with the local laws and a spotless personal background if checked.

Appreciate this is very left-field and it may be better to enquire directly with local counties, but just thought I would throw it out there to the knowledgable folks on here.

Cheers

Cris
Click to expand...

You can't get CCWP on a temporary visa, or at least when I got mine they wanted an actual visa (as in embassy issued) in the passport for their records.

Many LEOs don't like the temporary visa as it means any tom **** or harry can just waltz into the country...
 
XD40scinNC said:
Can they buy a gun in VT? Non-citizens can purchase a gun in NC, but can't get a CC permit, but could legally OC.
Click to expand...

If he passes the NICs check or buys privately yes he can. The rub-out is the hunting license. No hunting license and no gun sale (at a dealer). I've yet to hear of anyone being arrested and charged for not having a hunting license yet being in possession of a firearm as an alien, but I wouldn't like to test it out. LOL

US gun laws for non-citizens
 
CristianMoffat said:
Many thanks NavyLCDR. Just to be clear I would not be importing any firearms with me into the country.

The ATF guidelines for FFL's has a specific section dealing with non-immigrant aliens wanting to purchase firearms. This states clearly that they should use the I-94 immigration reference from the visitor visa, as the purchaser will not have an Alien number (no green card) or SS number. Nor, presumably, would they possess a state issued DL or ID.

No more I-94s they are computerized, even for B1/B2 Visas.
SS Number is available if you apply for one (I did when I was working there, but you can get non-working SSNs also).
EVERY alien who enters the USA gets an Alien Number green card or otherwise. You can go online and find it out by plugging in your passport details on the US Customs and Immigration's website. WITHOUT THIS YOU CANNOT COMPLETE THE 4473.

So, I believe could satisfy the federal and state criteria to purchase. Incidentally I have heard of one or two UK citizens who have obtained CCW permits via this route in Idaho and Wyoming.

Hello! :)

With regards to VT law specifically - what I need to clarify at a local level is does my residency in VT confer the automatic right for me to carry my handgun concealed, even as a non-citizen, given that VT is one of the few states that does not issue permits. I think it would be an interesting conversation with an LEO if I could not produce a VT DL, ID, or CPL!
Click to expand...

That's a good question, my opinion would be that if you have state residency then you should be ok, but maybe having a better call Saul lawyer on speed-dial is wise also.

If you are intending on leaving the state to visit friends or loved ones I would strongly suggest getting a CCW permit. VT *May* issue these. I know friends in Wyoming that have a CCWP for their state for travel to other states.

In some way's it's more difficult to get a Driving License depending on what state you are in.
 
CristianMoffat said:
Fair point - so it should be with so many great rural and forest areas to play in!

594 is a retrograde step and frankly I was surprised in passed in WA although sadly this seems to be the trend.

I also thought it strange that a non-US citizen cannot even handle a weapon in WA, it's a felony! That means I can't go hunting with my cousin using his rifles or I am breaking the law.

Go figure.
Click to expand...

It used to be you needed an Alien Firearm Permit, but I think they've improved it by saying as long as you are legit, you are good to go. Having said that there could be confusion and refusal at gunshops over this. Some will just blank you saying you need a green card (incorrect) others will not know how to process it for non-citizens unless they ring it through and are walked through the procedure by the ATF helpline folks.
 
Liberated Brit said:
That's a good question, my opinion would be that if you have state residency then you should be ok, but maybe having a better call Saul lawyer on speed-dial is wise also.

If you are intending on leaving the state to visit friends or loved ones I would strongly suggest getting a CCW permit. VT *May* issue these. I know friends in Wyoming that have a CCWP for their state for travel to other states.

In some way's it's more difficult to get a Driving License depending on what state you are in.
Click to expand...

Thanks for weighing in here fella can't believe my luck. You've got the T-shirt.

So you were allowed a CCW permit only after supplying an embassy issued visa - and I take that to mean proof of permanent residency or green card? That's disappointing as thought I could satisfy the requirements in VT at least.
 
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